AW: [ RadSafe ] Ecological fallacy fallacy

[Rainer.Facius at dlr.de]

Dale:

 

The intentionally derogative term "ecological fallacy" has been invented - or at least is exploited to its fullest - by LNT proponents who otherwise must fear to be 'converted' by elsewise incontrovertible epidemiological evidence at variance with their convictions.

 

In view of that, your hint is rather worth $2.00, at least. :-).

 

Thank you and best regards, Rainer


________________________________

Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl im Auftrag von Dale Boyce
Gesendet: Do 11.08.2005 21:45
An: radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: [ RadSafe ] Ecological fallacy fallacy



Hi all,

I keep seeing the phrase ecological fallacy invoked.  The more correct term
is ecological interference, and statistical methods have been devised to
circumvent it. See for example:

http://gking.harvard.edu/eicamera/kinroot.html

I believe this was published around 1997.  The presence of confounding
factors does not preclude finding statistically significant trends.  While
this particular paper/book was developed to study voting trends and not
epidemiological studies, its conclusions apply.

I can't say whether or not anyone has used this or similar data treatments
in background radiation studies. If not someone should.   Automatically
invoking the ecological fallacy argument without examining the underlying
statistical treatment is insufficient to discount epidemiological studies.

Just my $0.02

Dale



----- Original Message -----
From: <Rainer.Facius at dlr.de>
To: <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>; <jimm at WPI.EDU>; <maurysis at ev1.net>
Cc: <cdn-nucl-l at mailman1.cis.mcmaster.ca>; <mbrexchange at list.ans.org>;
<radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:43 AM
Subject: AW: AW: [ RadSafe ] Re: "Science" reports on background
radiationandhealth


John:



Before we continue this futile exchange I suggest you start studying at
least some of the more than 3 dozen references I offered upon your request.
Afterwards we might continue to discuss the evidence provided there on the
health status as a function of background radiation these populations are
exposed to. By then you might also understand why I referred to the
ecological fallacy argument.



Regards, Rainer



________________________________

Von: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird at yahoo.com]
Gesendet: Mi 10.08.2005 23:30
An: Facius, Rainer; jimm at WPI.EDU; maurysis at ev1.net
Cc: cdn-nucl-l at mailman1.cis.mcmaster.ca; mbrexchange at list.ans.org;
radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: AW: [ RadSafe ] Re: "Science" reports on background radiation
andhealth



Rainer,
I think you have fallen prey to the problem of wishful
thinking.  As a scientist, I expected more for you.

This has nothing to do with the LNT or ecological
studies.  It is what science is about.  Studies
performed and evidence presented.  Do you know of any
that support the idea that people who live in high
background areas are healthier and live longer?

--- Rainer.Facius at dlr.de wrote:

> "Can you cite any epidemiological studies..."
>
>
>
> John:
>
>
>
> Apparently you have fallen prey to the fairy tale
> perpetuated by linear philosophers that ecological
> epidemiological studies yield no valid conclusion
> whatsoever. Particularly in case of linear
> stimulus-risk relations, BL Cohen has conclusively
> refuted that myth. Otherwise it might indeed be
> impossible to extract risk coefficients from
> ecological studies. But who actually cares about
> risk coefficients if the complete (of course
> non-linear) risk function representing essentially
> the whole population is known. Obviously again only
> linear minds would care. Otherwise you might wish to
> study some of the results demonstrated in the papers
> of the incomplete list below (BTW, not all report
> ecological studies).
>
>
>
> Kind regards, Rainer
>
>  . . .


+++++++++++++++++++
"Every now and then a man's mind is stretched by a new idea and never
shrinks back to its original proportion." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

-- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com



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