FW: [ RadSafe ] New Radiation Protection Unit? The Taylor (Ty)

Thu Nov 24 00:07:53 CST 2005

-----Original Message-----
From: George J. Vargo [mailto:vargo at physicist.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 00:37
To: 'John R Johnson'
Cc: 'jimm at wpi.edu'
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] New Radiation Protection Unit? The Taylor (Ty)

John,

This is just a manifestation of my ongoing personal and professional
frustration with an inconsistent and incoherent system of units and
quantities that Allisy purveys as coherent. Simply, it is not.  That said, I
have no personal problem working in portions of this system, but I am the
exception and outside the mainstream of professional practice in North
America.  The current ICRP/ICRU quantities and units are bankrupt on many
levels and useless to the front-line practitioner and most especially the
emergency responder.  While it may make academic sense, we can't make it
work in the field where it is impossible to control the myriad of
qualifications and constraints implicit.  In my moments of greater
frustration, I have referred to some of ICRP's ruminations as
radioflatulence.

The more I deal with front line responders, the more I find the historical
units and quantities to be galvanizing.  I can get a fire battalion
commander to relate to 360 mrem/year -- ~ 1 mrem/day and explain scenarios
in multiples of that.  A bequerel is utterly meaningless to a firefighter
dressed in 20-25kg  of protective equipment.  Curies are usable and
understandable units.  While the scientist in me rails against the
historical units, they win the day in the court of public understanding,
acceptance, and opinion.  Even NIST has backed away from a strict SI
orthodoxy.

Of course, the Holy Grail is a universal quantification of risk, but none of
us is smart enough to propose this given what we don't know.   The inclusion
of other factors such as chemical exposures is absolutely essential and it
would be constructive to propose what we would need to know to project such
a risk.

All that said, I still welcome an international coherent system of units and
measures.  It is ultimately essential in commerce and other transnational
issues.

Apologies if I disappoint a former teacher, mentor, and manager.

George

PS -- John Jacobus and other promiscuous correswpondents-- Please, for God's
sake, limit your replies rather than burdening all of us with the entire
thread of he thread from its conceptus!  I can feel my hair grow as I scroll
through endless repeated drivel that adds nothing to the thread, but adds so
much to the obsufacation of the topic at hand!!!!

George J. Vargo, Ph.D., CHP
Senior Scientist
MJW Corporation
http://www.mjwcorp.com
610-925-3377
610-925-5545 (fax)
vargo at physicist.net

-----Original Message-----
From: John R Johnson [mailto:idias at interchange.ubc.ca] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 19:07
To: Muckerheide, James; vargo at physicist.net; RADSAFE
Cc: Philippe Duport(OU)
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] New Radiation Protection Unit? The Taylor (Ty)

Jim, George et al

I agree that the dosimetry units can cause "confusion", but at least they
are an attempt to quantify the radiation risk.

I think this is better than the situation with non radiation carcinogens; or
am I missing something?

Having tried (with Philippe) to quantify to risk from exposure to radiation
in uranium mines(uranium ore dust,  radon and progeny, silica, arsenic and
diesel exhaust), I think there is need for quantities like effective and
equivalent dose for other carcinogens so we can add them all together.

John
 _________________
John R Johnson, Ph.D.
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4535 West 9-Th Ave
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-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl]On
Behalf Of Muckerheide, James
Sent: November 23, 2005 1:56 PM
To: vargo at physicist.net; RADSAFE
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] New Radiation Protection Unit? The Taylor (Ty)

This is great George!

However, in fairness to the many fine 'Goldbergs' who should rightly take
umbrage, I suggest that it instead be just named the "Rube."

Also, of course, while it is in the purview of NCRP, it is not in the
purview of ICRP, but rather ICRU, which, IIRC, has expressed some disdain
for the unscientific nature of this whole construct of ICRP/NCRP nonsense of
applying
(implying) scientific units to the unmeasurable and unknowable.

Regards, Jim Muckerheide
=========================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On 
> Behalf Of George J. Vargo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:37 PM
> To: RADSAFE
> Subject: [ RadSafe ] New Radiation Protection Unit? The Taylor (Ty)
>
> (My apologies to the international participants for my parochial
> humor)
>
> I missed the origination of this thread.  Is it April 1st already?
>
> Personally, I would not want to sully the great reputation of 
> Lauriston Taylor by linking it to some of the recent ruminations of 
> the ICRP. Instead I would offer that ICRP pass on adopting the 
> "Taylor" in favor of the "Goldberg" in honor of that great American 
> inventor of the awkward, complex and arcane.
>
> George J. Vargo, Ph.D., CHP
> Senior Scientist
> MJW Corporation
> http://www.mjwcorp.com
> 610-925-3377
> 610-925-5545 (fax)
> vargo at physicist.net
>
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