[ RadSafe ] Methanol advantages

[Flood, John]

Ok, I have to report in on this one.  There are practical problems with methanol as an automobile fuel in widespread use.

The energy released by combustion of methanol is about half that of gasoline, which means we'd need twice as much of it to replace gasoline, and larger fuel tanks (not good for safety and probably real unpopular with auto designers).  Denaturing it will address the toxicity issue, but I don't know if denaturing harms its combustability (and as described already, consumption of methanol is a self-correcting problem).  Methanol flame is colorless - also known as invisible.  Indy cars run on methanol with an additive to make the flame somewhat visibile, but the effect is limited.  Seeing a methanol fire may be a real problem, and I have no idea what the additive costs, either, but it probably isn't free.

It is also my understanding that methanol is more corrosive on metals than gasoline or ethanol.

And, of course, burning methanol does nothing to improve greenhouse gas emissions.

John R. (Bob) Flood
Acting Manager
Radiological Health
702-295-2514

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf Of howard long
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:49 AM
To: Bernard L. Cohen; Franz Schönhofer
Cc: 'RadiatSafety'
Subject: [ RadSafe ] Methanol advantages

Methanol not only has cheaper raw material (although presently more expensive processing) than ethanol, and greater energy density, it would not give us as many drunks.
  Methanol, when imbibed, gives blindness and death (depending on dose), so not many repeat offenders would be DUI, as might be with booze at the pump.
   
  Adding offensive smell, as to methane household gas, might deter abusers
   
  Howard Long 

"Bernard L. Cohen" <blc+ at pitt.edu> wrote:
  I do remember discussion of methanol and ethanol as fuels in the 1970s, but both were rejected at that time. In recent years, ethanol has come into widespread use and there is discussion of making its use much more widespread, but I have not seen discussion of methanol in recent years. 
I suppose there is a good reason for this, but I would like to know what that reason is. A pound of wood pulp costs less than one-tenth as much as a pound of corn, so methanol would seem to be much cheaper. (Forests grow without much human effort, whereas growing corn requires plowing, fertilizing, weeding,etc; corn is much more sensitive to droughts). The higher energy content would accentuate this advantage. I see no obvious reason why ethanol is more advantageous from the standpoint of waste products (corn would seem to have more waste in cobs, stocks, etc) or safety (it is surely much safer than hydrogen fuel).
Since some of us claim to be scientists with expertise on energy, we should understand matters like this frrom the scientific standpoint.


Franz Schönhofer wrote:

>Bernard,
>
>I have problems to understand your message - simply because 
>consideration of methanol as a fuel is several decades old. In the late 
>70's there was a project (not executed) to build a pipeline from Poland 
>to Austria through which a slurry of coal in methanol should be sent to 
>Austria to substitute power from the "cancelled" nuclear power plant at Zwentendorf.
>
>Methanol has a much higher value concerning energy efficiency per liter 
>compared to ethanol. Without doubt there are much higher costs for 
>producing it than for ethanol. Of course it may be produced from wood - 
>but at what costs? Heat is not the only cost factor. What about the 
>tremendous amount of by-products, which to a small part could of course 
>be used commercially, but the major part would cause a lot of costs for disposal? A simple reasoning:
>If this kind of producing fuel would be financially favourable the big 
>oil companies would have changed to it since long. Thinking of this 
>possibility this might have changed politics dramatically - no invasion 
>of Iraq would have been taken place, not tens or hundreds of thousands 
>of people would have died. Another question is whether wood is really 
>so easily available and so cheap. This depends on the region, sure this 
>is not the case in the middle east. I see again that comments by US 
>citizens do not take into consideration that there is a world outside 
>the USA. Regarding the use of for instance corn for fuel production I 
>would question whether it is politically and ethically correct to use 
>potential food to produce fuel for thirsty car engines.
>
>My opinion is, that if it would have been really economically 
>favourable, it would have been done since long.
>
>Franz Schoenhofer
>PhD, MR iR
>Habicherg. 31/7
>A-1160 Vienna
>AUSTRIA
>phone -43-0699-1168-1319
>
>
> 
>
>>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im 
>>Auftrag von Bernard L. Cohen
>>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2006 19:46
>>An: RadiatSafety
>>Betreff: [ RadSafe ] query
>>
>> With all the discussion of ethanol from corn as a fuel, why is there 
>>no consideration of methanol which can be made from wood which is much 
>>more easily grown (and more cheaply available).than corn? All that is 
>>needed to convert wood into methanol is heat which could be obtained 
>>from nuclear reactors -- no very high temperatures required.
>>
>>--
>>ÐÏࡱá
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> 
>

--
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