[ RadSafe ] Re: Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higherthannormalnear

Thu Jul 19 16:00:24 CDT 2007

Canberra and Ortec (or whatever they are called now) do supply portable HPGE
detectors with the associated equipment and software.  The cost is at least
50 K US$ or more.  They are faily easy to operate, if one has worked in a
facility with regular ones.  There may be others taht are available.

Ed Baratta
edmond0033 at comcast.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dimiter Popoff" <didi at tgi-sci.com>
To: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: [ RadSafe ] Re: Feds puzzled by gamma radiation
higherthannormalnear

> Franz, all,
>
>> ... The   first thing I would do in this case, would be to put samples on
>> top
>> of a   HPGe-detector and determine the nature and the concentration of
>> the
>> radionuclides. I cannot believe that no such detectors would be available
>> in
>> a country which spends billions of $$$ on homeland security and now even
>> wants to encircle New York with radiation detectors!
>
> that's what I would have thought. But apparently the whole homeland
> security
> thing regarding radiation is as phoney as is say the dirty bomb scare; why
> spend the gigabucks they have on HPGe detectors and real instrumentation
> instead
> of buying some NaI & GM toys (just to have something to show the public),
> "consulting" above everything....
>
> Dimiter
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments
>
> http://www.tgi-sci.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Franz_Schönhofer?= <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
> To: "'stewart farber'" <radproject at sbcglobal.net>,
> "'Dan McCarn'" <hotgreenchile at gmail.com>,
> "'Michael McNaughton'" <mcnaught at lanl.gov>,
> "'Emer,Dudley'" <EMERDF at nv.doe.gov>
> Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher
> thannormalnear
> wildfire -Cs-137, K-40 data
> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:52:01 +0200
>
> Stewart, Dan, Mike and others,
>
> You might be interested that there has been research done in the province
> of
> Upper Austria about 10 years ago on that (and related) topics to check the
> influence of the Chernobyl accident on the Cs-137 concentrations. Result:
> No
> concern. There has been research in Sweden on the Cs-137 concentration in
> wood and in materials from various stages in the pulp and paper industry.
> Other investigations were carried out on wood exported from Eastern
> European
> Countries. In Finland there was shortly after the Chernobyl accident a
> discussion about Cs-137 in peat, because in some areas peat is used for
> electricity generation.
>
> I could try to find some papers, but I will fly tomorrow to Estonia and
> also
> visit my friends in Finland, so I will be back only after about three
> weeks!
>
> I did not really follow this thread tightly, maybe I missed something: The
> first thing I would do in this case, would be to put samples on top of a
> HPGe-detector and determine the nature and the concentration of the
> radionuclides. I cannot believe that no such detectors would be available
> in
> a country which spends billions of $$$ on homeland security and now even
> wants to encircle New York with radiation detectors!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Franz
>
> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
> MinRat i.R.
> Habicherg. 31/7
> A-1160 Wien/Vienna
> AUSTRIA
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im
> Auftrag
> von stewart farber
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Juli 2007 16:25
> An: Dan McCarn; Michael McNaughton; Emer,Dudley
> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
> Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher
> thannormalnear wildfire -Cs-137, K-40 data
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've mentioned aspects of the woodash survey I conducted back in the
> 1990s
> on radsafe before. Based on actual measurements, from this survey of
> Cs-137
> in woodash, the typical K-40 content of woodash is about 120,000
> picoCuries
> per kg of ash.  Woodash is 10 to 15% potassium by weight --thus it's use
> as
> a feedstock to the early US potash industry in colonial times.
>
> Ash samples from burning mature hardwoods in the East in my survey had
> Cs-137 as high as 20,000 [in many parts of New England] to 25,000
> picoCuries
>
> kg of ash [in oak ash from FL].
>
> At these latter levels, the  Cs-137 peak dwarfed the K-40 peak due to
> gamma
> abundance in K-40 being relatively low vs. Cs-137 and Cs-137 efficiency in
> gamma counting being much higher than K-40. Thus total counts from Cs-137
> at
>
> say 20,000 pCi/kg ash showed a peak on a gamma spec that was much, much
> higher than that from K-40 at 120,000 pCi/kg ash. Every other peak in the
> U
> and Th decay series in woodash faded to the baseline vs. the K-40 and
> Cs-137
>
> peak heights.
>
> I received  data in this survey on Cs-137 in wood ash from Idaho which was
> about 1,000 pCi/kg in pine ash. Wood ash samples from trees in CA showed
> Cs-137 at only about 300 pCi/kg ash. Cs-137 content in woodash varies by
> factors of up to 100 despite relatively even Cs-137 areal deposition from
> airborne nuclear bomb testing, due to soil factors:  stable Cs in soil
> [higher stable Cs leads to higher Cs-137 in biomass per unit deposition],
> stable potassium levels in soil [inverse relationship  --more stable K,
> lower Cs-137 per unit deposition], and more.
>
> A wild fire can throw up  2 to 3% or more of the mass of biomass burned as
> airborne ash particulates which might contribute to elevated activity
> measured on filters due to K-40 and Cs-137 [residual from generalized
> weapon's test fallout].
>
> Stewart Farber, MS Public Health
> Consulting Scientist
> Farber Technical Services
> 1285 Wood Ave.
> Bridgeport, CT 06604
> [203] 441-8433 [office]
> [203] 522-2817 [cell]
> email: radproject at sbcglobal.net
>
> ==========================
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dan McCarn" <hotgreenchile at gmail.com>
> To: "Michael McNaughton" <mcnaught at lanl.gov>; "Emer,Dudley"
> <EMERDF at nv.doe.gov>; <HotGreenChile at gmail.com>
> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher than
> normalnear wildfire
>
>
> Hi Michael:
>
> As you probably already know, Bi-214 is the most significant gamma
> emitter of the Ra-226 daughters (dominantly the 609 KeV gamma photopeak),
> but the early part of the chain has quite short half-lives.  Perhaps the
> "gamma" detectors *during* the fire were seeing the gamma from the Bi-214
> which decayed to the three radionuclides - Pb-210, Bi-210, and Po-210.
>
> If the 'ingrowth" chain is broken during the fire, then perhaps the only
> R/Ns to survive on an air filter would begin with Pb-210 and the ingrowth
> daughters Bi-210 and Po-210.  After only a few hours (4.46 hours), the
> Pb-214 would have decayed (10 half lifes) to 1/1024 of the original value
> and may be undetectable along with the Bi-214.
>
> Another gamma emitter that would certainly be lofted during the fire would
> be K-40, which accumulates in soils and wood as a macronutrient in plants.
> SInce the soils "burn" in forest fires as well as the trees (similar
> caloric
> value), the K-40 could easily be lofted with the ash from the forest
> floor.
> The name "potash" comes from the use of wood ash from the firepalace as a
> fertilizer, since it is significantly enriched in potassium.
>
> Rn-222 3.8235 d
> Po-218 164.3 µS
> Pb-214 26.8 m
> Bi-214 19.9 m
> Po-214 164.3 µS
> Pb-210 22.20 y
> Bi-210 5.012 d
> Po-210 138.376 d
>
>
> Best regards!
>
> Dan ii
>
> Dan W McCarn, Geologist
> Houston & Albuquerque
>
> On 7/16/07, Michael McNaughton <mcnaught at lanl.gov> wrote:
>>
>> Following the Cerro-Grande fire at Los Alamos, I and my colleagues
>> investigated the increased airborne radiation measured during the fire.
>> Almost all the increased radioactivity we detected is from the long-lived
>> radon decay product, lead-210, and its progeny: bismuth-210 and
>> polonium-210. However, I am puzzled by the word "gamma" that appears
>> several times in the article below. Pb-210, Bi-210, and Po-210 emit few
>> gammas, mostly of low energy. Does anyone on this list have more
>> information?
>>
>> mike
>>
>> At 01:35 PM 07/13/2007, Sandy Perle wrote:
>> >Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher than normal near wildfire
>> >
>> >The Salt Lake Tribune, Jul 13 -  A puzzle has sprung from the flames
>> >of the Milford Flat Fire: What's pumping radiation into the air? The
>> >National Nuclear Security Administration said Thursday its radiation
>> >monitors in the area are showing gamma radiation spikes seven times
>> >higher than the normal background. But before anyone runs to the
>> >doctor, it's worth pointing out that even those spikes, if someone
>> >breathed them for seven hours straight, produce less than one-2,000th
>> >of the radiation dose a Utahn normally gets in a year. "You're
>> >talking about a very small dose," said NNSA spokesman Darwin Morgan.
>> >The agency, which had proposed a massive, non-nuclear explosion
>> >experiment at the Nevada Test Site last year, monitors the air for
>> >radiation at 29 monitoring stations in Utah, California and Nevada.
>> >The agency canceled the so-called Divine Strake test after hearing
>> >from thousands of Utahns who complained that the explosion would send
>> >radiation-tainted debris into their air and onto their landscape. "We
>> >heard loud and clear from the people of Utah they are concerned about
>> >radiation," said Morgan, explaining his agency's reasons for
>> >publicizing the radiation-meter findings. Morgan said filters from
>> >the Milford monitoring station are being analyzed at a laboratory.
>> >The agency thinks that naturally occurring radon is being released
>> >from the ground, but only study of the material captured on the air
>> >filters will tell them for sure. Dane Finerfrock, director of the
>> >Utah Division of Radiation Control, said the fact that radiation is
>> >released during combustion is no secret. "There's a radioactivity in
>> >that forest and brush," he said, "and some of it stays in the ash and
>> >some of it goes into the atmosphere." Morgan said there is no data
>> >about the radiation from the Neola North Fire in eastern Utah. The
>> >agency does not have monitors in that part of the state.
>> >----------------------
>>
>> Mike McNaughton
>> Los Alamos National Lab.
>> email: mcnaught at LANL.gov or mcnaughton at LANL.gov
>> phone: 505-667-6130; page: 505-664-7733
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>>
>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
>> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>>
>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
>> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Dan W McCarn
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the
> RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit:
>
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the
> RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsaf
>
>
>> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Franz_Schönhofer?= <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
>> To: "'stewart farber'" <radproject at sbcglobal.net>,
>> "'Dan McCarn'" <hotgreenchile at gmail.com>,
>> "'Michael McNaughton'" <mcnaught at lanl.gov>,
>> "'Emer,Dudley'" <EMERDF at nv.doe.gov>
>> Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher
>> thannormalnear
>> wildfire -Cs-137, K-40 data
>> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:52:01 +0200
>>
>> Stewart, Dan, Mike and others,
>>
>> You might be interested that there has been research done in the province
>> of
>> Upper Austria about 10 years ago on that (and related) topics to check
>> the
>> influence of the Chernobyl accident on the Cs-137 concentrations. Result:
>> No
>> concern. There has been research in Sweden on the Cs-137 concentration in
>> wood and in materials from various stages in the pulp and paper industry.
>> Other investigations were carried out on wood exported from Eastern
>> European
>> Countries. In Finland there was shortly after the Chernobyl accident a
>> discussion about Cs-137 in peat, because in some areas peat is used for
>> electricity generation.
>>
>> I could try to find some papers, but I will fly tomorrow to Estonia and
>> also
>> visit my friends in Finland, so I will be back only after about three
>> weeks!
>>
>> I did not really follow this thread tightly, maybe I missed something:
>> The
>> first thing I would do in this case, would be to put samples on top of a
>> HPGe-detector and determine the nature and the concentration of the
>> radionuclides. I cannot believe that no such detectors would be available
>> in
>> a country which spends billions of $$$ on homeland security and now even
>> wants to encircle New York with radiation detectors!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Franz
>>
>> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
>> MinRat i.R.
>> Habicherg. 31/7
>> A-1160 Wien/Vienna
>> AUSTRIA
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im
>> Auftrag
>> von stewart farber
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Juli 2007 16:25
>> An: Dan McCarn; Michael McNaughton; Emer,Dudley
>> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
>> Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher
>> thannormalnear wildfire -Cs-137, K-40 data
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've mentioned aspects of the woodash survey I conducted back in the
>> 1990s
>> on radsafe before. Based on actual measurements, from this survey of
>> Cs-137
>> in woodash, the typical K-40 content of woodash is about 120,000
>> picoCuries
>> per kg of ash.  Woodash is 10 to 15% potassium by weight --thus it's use
>> as
>> a feedstock to the early US potash industry in colonial times.
>>
>> Ash samples from burning mature hardwoods in the East in my survey had
>> Cs-137 as high as 20,000 [in many parts of New England] to 25,000
>> picoCuries
>>
>> kg of ash [in oak ash from FL].
>>
>> At these latter levels, the  Cs-137 peak dwarfed the K-40 peak due to
>> gamma
>> abundance in K-40 being relatively low vs. Cs-137 and Cs-137 efficiency
>> in
>> gamma counting being much higher than K-40. Thus total counts from Cs-137
>> at
>>
>> say 20,000 pCi/kg ash showed a peak on a gamma spec that was much, much
>> higher than that from K-40 at 120,000 pCi/kg ash. Every other peak in the
>> U
>> and Th decay series in woodash faded to the baseline vs. the K-40 and
>> Cs-137
>>
>> peak heights.
>>
>> I received  data in this survey on Cs-137 in wood ash from Idaho which
>> was
>> about 1,000 pCi/kg in pine ash. Wood ash samples from trees in CA showed
>> Cs-137 at only about 300 pCi/kg ash. Cs-137 content in woodash varies by
>> factors of up to 100 despite relatively even Cs-137 areal deposition from
>> airborne nuclear bomb testing, due to soil factors:  stable Cs in soil
>> [higher stable Cs leads to higher Cs-137 in biomass per unit deposition],
>> stable potassium levels in soil [inverse relationship  --more stable K,
>> lower Cs-137 per unit deposition], and more.
>>
>> A wild fire can throw up  2 to 3% or more of the mass of biomass burned
>> as
>> airborne ash particulates which might contribute to elevated activity
>> measured on filters due to K-40 and Cs-137 [residual from generalized
>> weapon's test fallout].
>>
>> Stewart Farber, MS Public Health
>> Consulting Scientist
>> Farber Technical Services
>> 1285 Wood Ave.
>> Bridgeport, CT 06604
>> [203] 441-8433 [office]
>> [203] 522-2817 [cell]
>> email: radproject at sbcglobal.net
>>
>> ==========================
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dan McCarn" <hotgreenchile at gmail.com>
>> To: "Michael McNaughton" <mcnaught at lanl.gov>; "Emer,Dudley"
>> <EMERDF at nv.doe.gov>; <HotGreenChile at gmail.com>
>> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
>> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 3:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher than
>> normalnear wildfire
>>
>>
>> Hi Michael:
>>
>> As you probably already know, Bi-214 is the most significant gamma
>> emitter of the Ra-226 daughters (dominantly the 609 KeV gamma photopeak),
>> but the early part of the chain has quite short half-lives.  Perhaps the
>> "gamma" detectors *during* the fire were seeing the gamma from the Bi-214
>> which decayed to the three radionuclides - Pb-210, Bi-210, and Po-210.
>>
>> If the 'ingrowth" chain is broken during the fire, then perhaps the only
>> R/Ns to survive on an air filter would begin with Pb-210 and the ingrowth
>> daughters Bi-210 and Po-210.  After only a few hours (4.46 hours), the
>> Pb-214 would have decayed (10 half lifes) to 1/1024 of the original value
>> and may be undetectable along with the Bi-214.
>>
>> Another gamma emitter that would certainly be lofted during the fire
>> would
>> be K-40, which accumulates in soils and wood as a macronutrient in
>> plants.
>> SInce the soils "burn" in forest fires as well as the trees (similar
>> caloric
>> value), the K-40 could easily be lofted with the ash from the forest
>> floor.
>> The name "potash" comes from the use of wood ash from the firepalace as a
>> fertilizer, since it is significantly enriched in potassium.
>>
>> Rn-222 3.8235 d
>> Po-218 164.3 µS
>> Pb-214 26.8 m
>> Bi-214 19.9 m
>> Po-214 164.3 µS
>> Pb-210 22.20 y
>> Bi-210 5.012 d
>> Po-210 138.376 d
>>
>>
>> Best regards!
>>
>> Dan ii
>>
>> Dan W McCarn, Geologist
>> Houston & Albuquerque
>>
>> On 7/16/07, Michael McNaughton <mcnaught at lanl.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> > Following the Cerro-Grande fire at Los Alamos, I and my colleagues
>> > investigated the increased airborne radiation measured during the fire.
>> > Almost all the increased radioactivity we detected is from the
>> > long-lived
>> > radon decay product, lead-210, and its progeny: bismuth-210 and
>> > polonium-210. However, I am puzzled by the word "gamma" that appears
>> > several times in the article below. Pb-210, Bi-210, and Po-210 emit few
>> > gammas, mostly of low energy. Does anyone on this list have more
>> > information?
>> >
>> > mike
>> >
>> > At 01:35 PM 07/13/2007, Sandy Perle wrote:
>> > >Feds puzzled by gamma radiation higher than normal near wildfire
>> > >
>> > >The Salt Lake Tribune, Jul 13 -  A puzzle has sprung from the flames
>> > >of the Milford Flat Fire: What's pumping radiation into the air? The
>> > >National Nuclear Security Administration said Thursday its radiation
>> > >monitors in the area are showing gamma radiation spikes seven times
>> > >higher than the normal background. But before anyone runs to the
>> > >doctor, it's worth pointing out that even those spikes, if someone
>> > >breathed them for seven hours straight, produce less than one-2,000th
>> > >of the radiation dose a Utahn normally gets in a year. "You're
>> > >talking about a very small dose," said NNSA spokesman Darwin Morgan.
>> > >The agency, which had proposed a massive, non-nuclear explosion
>> > >experiment at the Nevada Test Site last year, monitors the air for
>> > >radiation at 29 monitoring stations in Utah, California and Nevada.
>> > >The agency canceled the so-called Divine Strake test after hearing
>> > >from thousands of Utahns who complained that the explosion would send
>> > >radiation-tainted debris into their air and onto their landscape. "We
>> > >heard loud and clear from the people of Utah they are concerned about
>> > >radiation," said Morgan, explaining his agency's reasons for
>> > >publicizing the radiation-meter findings. Morgan said filters from
>> > >the Milford monitoring station are being analyzed at a laboratory.
>> > >The agency thinks that naturally occurring radon is being released
>> > >from the ground, but only study of the material captured on the air
>> > >filters will tell them for sure. Dane Finerfrock, director of the
>> > >Utah Division of Radiation Control, said the fact that radiation is
>> > >released during combustion is no secret. "There's a radioactivity in
>> > >that forest and brush," he said, "and some of it stays in the ash and
>> > >some of it goes into the atmosphere." Morgan said there is no data
>> > >about the radiation from the Neola North Fire in eastern Utah. The
>> > >agency does not have monitors in that part of the state.
>> > >----------------------
>> >
>> > Mike McNaughton
>> > Los Alamos National Lab.
>> > email: mcnaught at LANL.gov or mcnaughton at LANL.gov
>> > phone: 505-667-6130; page: 505-664-7733
>> >
>> >
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>