AW: [ RadSafe ] BAD INFORMATION
George Stanford
gstanford at aya.yale.edu
Sat Nov 15 20:22:41 CST 2008
Franz:
If those ancient propaganda sheets were
indeed a hoax, the hoaxer has clearly yanked more
chains than one. However, here we are.
In what I wrote, there was nothing that
someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of
nuclear weapons effects would take issue
with. Roger Heibig has nicely quantified the
situation (I assume his numbers are correct).
With the experience you say you have
had, I am amazed that you didn't know that
air-burst nuclear explosions (by definition,
those in which the fireball does not touch the
ground) do not produce local fallout, You could
start your education in this area by reading the
authoritative "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons,"
by Samuel Glasstone. You can download a pdf
version from
<http://www.princeton.edu/~globsec/publications/effects/effects2.pdf>.
On page 36-37 you will find this: "Thus at
Hiroshima (height of burst 1670 feet, yield about
12.5 kilotons) and Nagasaki (height of burst 1640
feet, yield about 22 kilotons) injuries due to fallout were completely absent."
Your experience in the Pacific is
completely irrelevant to this discussion --
because, contrary to what you say, not all of the
explosions were air bursts. At least one of the
Mururoa tests -- the first one ("Aldebaran,"
1966) -- was a 30 kT surface burst (it was on a
barge). It's not surprising that you found fission products there.
The first explosion at Fangataufa
("Canopus," 1968) occurred 1800 feet in the air,
but was not an air burst as defined above. It
was a very large explosion (2.2 megatons --170
times the Hiroshima yield), and the radius of its
fireball was more than a mile, so it was in fact
a surface burst. The local fallout would have been copious.
Strange you didn't know that some of the
tests whose effects you were investigating were surface bursts.
Finally, if you think I denied that
there were victims of the Japanese A-bombings, I
suggest that you take a refresher course in reading for content.
Yours in astonishment,
George Stanford
Reactor physicist, retired
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At 12:01 PM 11/15/2008, Franz Schönhofer wrote:
George,
Having been interested in nuclear bomb topics since many years I find your
comment unacceptable, sloppy and simply unbelievable, that somebody who
obviously regards himself as a member of the community of radiation
protection professionals distributes something like this on the RADSAFE
list. Following your reasoning it must have been really funny to have been a
victim of the Hiroshima bombing! Fission products can still be measured in
Hiroshima as well as those from fallout. Could you give some sources for
your unbelievable comment? There are more than enough who show facts
contrary to your claimed ones. Interesting to read, that there is no local
fallout - again please give sources for this nonsensical claim? I have been
the leader of the terrestrial working group of the International Mururoa
Project on the Nuclear Tests of France in the South Pacific - what a
surprise we found quite a lot of fission products on the atolls of Mururoa
and Fangataufa. How can you dare to say, that there is no local fallout in a
nuclear bomb explosion? (They were all of the type you call "air burst" and
even more they were not above ground but above the lagoon. No "local
fallout"? You are kidding!!!! - which is true for your claim that one need
not worry, if one is not wounded. Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were ground
level bursts - don't you know that?
I would really recommend that y o u get the facts straight. Read about the
hundreds of thousands victims of both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings
and then stop distributing the nonsense you did. With my disdain for your
unbelievable opinions
Franz
Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag
von George Stanford
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. November 2008 23:01
An: Peterson, Ken
Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] BAD INFORMATION
Ken:
The problem is somewhat more subtle. The old brochures you
link to clearly are bald-faced attempts to make the public think
nuclear war is like a romp in the park. However, while the sheets
are simplistic in the extreme, and seriously misleading, all the
statements are, in a literal sense, accurate.
- "By the time the debris stops falling, there is no radiation
hazard." The statement is true. It is made in the context of a
Hiroshima-type "air burst" (one in which the fireball does not touch
the ground). In such a case, all the radioactive fission products
are carried upward -- there is no local fallout. There is a small
amount of radioactivity induced by neutrons near ground zero, but
it's too low to be of concern, especially in a wartime context.
- "In most cases, if you are not wounded or burned, you need not
worry about radiation." This also is true, for the same reason.
- "Or radiation exposure from airbursts can be avoided by maneuvering
your ship or vehicle." Certainly false, as you phrase it -- but the
pamphlet doesn't say that. If you read the footnote more carefully,
you will see that the context is the aftermath of a ground-level
burst -- so the footnote, while it might not be relevant, is
literally accurate -- under the unlikely assumption, that is, that
you know where the fallout has landed (covering perhaps many square
miles) so that you can drive around it (good luck!).
Being from the late 40s or early 50s, presumably, those
simplistic propaganda sheets assumed relatively small, Hiroshima-size
(~15 kiloton) bombs. They would be even more misleading (although
still literally true) in these days of much larger, even more
destructive, weapons.
Nuclear weapons are nasty, but we still need to get our
facts straight.
Cheers,
George Stanford
Reactor physicist, retired
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At 11:21 AM 11/14/2008, Peterson, Ken wrote:
It is interesting to note how the US Government publishes erroneous
information in the 1950's, and it STILL impacts the military and public
today. It would be funny if it weren't so serious. Note that: "By the
time the debris stops falling, there is no radiation hazard.", "In most
cases, if you are not wounded or burned, you need not worry about
radiation." Or radiation exposure from airbursts can be avoided by
maneuvering your ship or vehicle.....
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/index.asp
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/images/images-301-350/photo313-1_high
-res.jpg
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/images/images-301-350/photo313-2.jpg
Ken Peterson
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