[ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive LongerThanExpected

Sun Dec 20 23:42:52 CST 2009

Franz, maybe it is me, Supertroll, that you speak of.  I have no
publications...I am fresh out of college newly working in the radsafe
field.   My first boss was informative and enthusiastic and provided
encouraging support regarding work in the Health Physics industry.  I joined
this list after hearing him and colleagues discussing the interesting
topics.  That is known as positive reinforcement.  It works Franz.  I don't
have a shred of the amount of experience that most professionals on this
list have.  Why do you thing I am on it?  Maybe to learn?  This issue
concerns me due to the lack of young professionals in the industry and the
future of nuclear power and nuclear research.

If you need anymore of my information please request...I would be happy to
oblige.  In fact, I will be coming to Germany around June, maybe I could hop
on a train to Austria and you could tell me about one of your occupational
experiences that you learned from the most.  I will buy you a Stiegl or
marzen of your choice.

Nonetheless, I digress.

I enjoy the list and hearing about all rad related issues, notably the
behavior of radionuclides in the environment.  The bickering gets old and
tired...and I feel like over the past two years that I have been reading it,
90% of the time it could have been avoided.  Sometimes a bit childish.

Franz, I read the other day that the "moderator" is stepping down.
You could rule with an iron fist.  Think about it.

Happy Holidays
-Chris

2009/12/20 Franz Schönhofer <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>

> There is no information - as usual - on the messenger, his affiliation etc.
> Nothing about his background, his affiliation, his previous publications,
> etc. etc.
>
> I hope that those people would adhere to a probably not internationally
> fixed code of conduct, which would request them to identify themselves
> (actually incoroporated into the RADSAFE rules!!!!). If they are cowards,
> who want to be anonymous, they should use the usual non-professionals lists
> like Bla-,bla,Bla....... I am rather sure that hardly any Radsafer would
> visit these lists.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Franz
>
> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
> MinRat i.R.
> Habicherg. 31/7
> A-1160 Wien/Vienna
> AUSTRIA
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im
> Auftrag
> von Bailey, Pete
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Dezember 2009 14:18
> An: 'Dan W McCarn'
> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
> Betreff: RE: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive
> LongerThanExpected
>
> But wouldn't this be 'considered' all along....
> Not only compare the concentration as F(time),
> but throw in a bioaccumulation 'fudge' factor ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan W McCarn [mailto:hotgreenchile at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:26 AM
> To: Bailey, Pete
> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
> Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive Longer
> ThanExpected
>
> Hello Group:
>
> In my last posting, I implicitly discussed "mechanisms of reconcentration"
> of cesium and strontium.  Basically, because of the high cation-exchange
> selectivity of cesium / strontium, there is a mechanism that RECONCENTRATES
> Cs & Sr in zones of high cation-exchange capacity.  Geologists are always
> aware of these type of mechanisms because they emplace ore deposits, cause
> caliche buildup in certain soil types and constantly changes a "uniform"
> environment into a very heterogeneous one. If one were to look at an active
> roll-front uranium deposit, one would remark that through time, the
> concentration increases! That's because it really is trapping uranium very
> efficiently from groundwater and precipitating it into the roll-front.
>
> Mechanisms in plants will likely redistribute Cs in a way similar to
> potassium (K) or for Franz, Kalium.  In some fungi such as mushrooms, the
> Cs
> is hyper-accumulated.  In fact, they do it so well that one French research
> group studied the possibility of using mushrooms to clean-up soils of Cs &
> Sr.
>
> One must look at mechanisms that mobilize and redistribute R/Ns and weight
> the importance of each one.
>
> Another mechanism: around the Chernobyl plant, deep-plowing was used to
> turn-over the top meter of soil to reduce the effects on people working
> there. Perhaps the cesium is being pulled closer to the soil surface over
> the intervening 23 years (evapotranspirative pumping?) and is being
> reconcentrated closer to the upper soil profile. Plants are thirsty
> critters, and they produce a flow upwards into the capillary fringe zone of
> the soil. Perhaps this active transport mechanism is also leaching the Cs &
> Sr from the deep-plowed zone and depositing the material in the upper soil
> zone.
>
> As I mentioned earlier, there is still significant redistribution of cesium
> during wildfires.  Not only the trees are burned, but the upper soil zone,
> quite rich in cesium & strontium in the humus, is also lofted and aerially
> dispersed. Back in the 90s, this would raise the background radiation in
> Minsk 10 fold when there was significant smoke from the zone in the air.
> The
> area around Las Alamos experienced a similar phenomenon some years back
> following the forest fire there.
>
> In mass-balance terms, a forest fire that burns the top 10-15 cm of forest
> floor would loft a significant amount of cesium and strontium in that area
> skyward in the ash.  The ash that remained and was not lofted, would also
> be
> significantly more radioactive per gram of material.  The lofted material
> would then be re-deposited elsewhere downwind. The ash that remained would
> simply increase the surface radioactivity because of the reconcentration of
> Cs, Sr, & K in the ash.  The ash, as every farmer knows, is easily
> leachable.  That is why "pot ash" is used for garden fertilizer.
>
> Just my very late-night thoughts!
>
> Dan ii
>
> --
> Dan W McCarn, Geologist
> 2867 A Fuego Sagrado
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> +1-505-310-3922 (Mobile - New Mexico)
> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
> Behalf
> Of Bailey, Pete
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 08:56
> To: safe rad (radsafe at radlab.nl)
> Subject: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive Longer
> ThanExpected
>
> >Cesium 137's half-life - the time it takes for half of a given amount
>
> of material to decay - is 30 years, but the amount of cesium in soil near
>
> >Chernobyl isn't decreasing nearly that fast. And scientists don't know
> >why
>
> Not withstanding the discussion about plant 'recycle'; there must be an
> 'unknown'  source of Cs-137 to allow the measured concentrations to exceed
> the values based on the physical half-life.
> This 'unknown' source could be such things as poor (underestimated)  time=0
> values or an underground (soils,clay etc)
> deposit of Cs that is feeding the 'assumed' fallout only Cs concentration
> profile.
>
> I also believe, from my own continuing experience with Rad Env Monitoring,
> the Cs fallout still occurs; sample results I see in vegetation does not
> truly follow 30 yr
> ....but that is very tied to "when is T=0"   . . .  late 50's when 'we'
> stopped' ?  how about the Chinese weapons tests in the 60's, etc.
>
> Interesting note, however, Gross Beta in Air did follow a nice Rad Decay
> curve....
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