AW: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive LongerThanExpected

Tue Dec 22 12:33:38 CST 2009

Dear Chris,

You have my first-hand sympathy, because my older son’s name is Christian,
sometimes abbreviated to „Chris“. .......

Secondly it seems that there has occurred a big misunderstanding. What I am
very sorry for is that it was at least partially my fault. My message about
the Supertroll was intended to be sent to this person who did not give his
coordinates and tried to insult me (“wrestling with pigs”). I wanted you to
receive this message in copy, but put you into the wrong line. Sorry, but my
skills in this field are notoriously bad!

I do not regard you as a “Supertroll”, not even as a troll and actually
appreciated your first comment – I even mentioned it in a previous post,
because it made sense! 

It is nice to hear that you have just finished university – I know myself,
though I am an old man (65), how difficult it is to establish oneself in the
scientific community. Your approach to learn, learn and learn is the correct
one. Visit conferences, speak with the authorative scientists – in the USA
this is much easier than for instance at my old times with German professors
at conferences in Germany. 

Do not be to much impressed of the persons, posting to the list – there are
absolute top scientists contributing to it, but there are others, not
necessarily trolls, who have hardly, if not any experience in Radiation
Protection and topics they post on – you have to learn to distinguish
between them! You can be almost sure, that those who post the most patriotic
(US) messages are of the latter kind. 

You mentioned that I should spend my time to teach students about my fields
of experience – Yes, I do. Besides a lot of presentations at conferences and
university seminars in Vienna I have  last autumn spent more than a week in
Hungary at two Universities with more than six hours a day lectures on
radiochemistry, radioecology, environmental contamination, environmental
surveillance etc. I paid my hotel costs myself, the travel costs were more
or less paid by the IAEA  because those universities were on my way to the
ALMERA meeting in Budapest. 

Furthermore:

As I mentioned before I am an old man, not knowledgable about internet.
Even if I would like to (but I do not!!!!) take over the list – I cannot
becaue of lack of knowledge and especially because of lack of computer
support. What I sincerely hope is that it will not be taken over by one of
these US-hardliners affiliated to companies involved heavily with “defense”
agencies (SAIC) or to US state agencies. It is obvious that some “Radsafer”s
of such affiliations already advocate it. 

This will be a separate post to RADSAFE 

Franz Schoenhofer, PhD

MinRat i.R.

Habicherg. 31/7

A-1160 Wien/Vienna

AUSTRIA

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Chris Steinmann [mailto:crsteinmann at gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 06:43
An: Franz Schönhofer
Cc: Bailey, Pete; Dan W McCarn; radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive
LongerThanExpected

Franz, maybe it is me, Supertroll, that you speak of.  I have no
publications...I am fresh out of college newly working in the radsafe field.
My first boss was informative and enthusiastic and provided encouraging
support regarding work in the Health Physics industry.  I joined this list
after hearing him and colleagues discussing the interesting topics.  That is
known as positive reinforcement.  It works Franz.  I don't have a shred of
the amount of experience that most professionals on this list have.  Why do
you thing I am on it?  Maybe to learn?  This issue concerns me due to the
lack of young professionals in the industry and the future of nuclear power
and nuclear research.      

If you need anymore of my information please request...I would be happy to
oblige.  In fact, I will be coming to Germany around June, maybe I could hop
on a train to Austria and you could tell me about one of your occupational
experiences that you learned from the most.  I will buy you a Stiegl or
marzen of your choice.

Nonetheless, I digress.  

I enjoy the list and hearing about all rad related issues, notably the
behavior of radionuclides in the environment.  The bickering gets old and
tired...and I feel like over the past two years that I have been reading it,
90% of the time it could have been avoided.  Sometimes a bit childish.  

Franz, I read the other day that the "moderator" is stepping down.  
You could rule with an iron fist.  Think about it.  

Happy Holidays
-Chris     

2009/12/20 Franz Schönhofer <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>

There is no information - as usual - on the messenger, his affiliation etc.
Nothing about his background, his affiliation, his previous publications,
etc. etc.

I hope that those people would adhere to a probably not internationally
fixed code of conduct, which would request them to identify themselves
(actually incoroporated into the RADSAFE rules!!!!). If they are cowards,
who want to be anonymous, they should use the usual non-professionals lists
like Bla-,bla,Bla....... I am rather sure that hardly any Radsafer would
visit these lists.

Best regards,

Franz

Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag
von Bailey, Pete
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Dezember 2009 14:18
An: 'Dan W McCarn'
Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: RE: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive
LongerThanExpected

But wouldn't this be 'considered' all along....
Not only compare the concentration as F(time),
but throw in a bioaccumulation 'fudge' factor ?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan W McCarn [mailto:hotgreenchile at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:26 AM
To: Bailey, Pete
Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive Longer
ThanExpected

Hello Group:

In my last posting, I implicitly discussed "mechanisms of reconcentration"
of cesium and strontium.  Basically, because of the high cation-exchange
selectivity of cesium / strontium, there is a mechanism that RECONCENTRATES
Cs & Sr in zones of high cation-exchange capacity.  Geologists are always
aware of these type of mechanisms because they emplace ore deposits, cause
caliche buildup in certain soil types and constantly changes a "uniform"
environment into a very heterogeneous one. If one were to look at an active
roll-front uranium deposit, one would remark that through time, the
concentration increases! That's because it really is trapping uranium very
efficiently from groundwater and precipitating it into the roll-front.

Mechanisms in plants will likely redistribute Cs in a way similar to
potassium (K) or for Franz, Kalium.  In some fungi such as mushrooms, the Cs
is hyper-accumulated.  In fact, they do it so well that one French research
group studied the possibility of using mushrooms to clean-up soils of Cs &
Sr.

One must look at mechanisms that mobilize and redistribute R/Ns and weight
the importance of each one.

Another mechanism: around the Chernobyl plant, deep-plowing was used to
turn-over the top meter of soil to reduce the effects on people working
there. Perhaps the cesium is being pulled closer to the soil surface over
the intervening 23 years (evapotranspirative pumping?) and is being
reconcentrated closer to the upper soil profile. Plants are thirsty
critters, and they produce a flow upwards into the capillary fringe zone of
the soil. Perhaps this active transport mechanism is also leaching the Cs &
Sr from the deep-plowed zone and depositing the material in the upper soil
zone.

As I mentioned earlier, there is still significant redistribution of cesium
during wildfires.  Not only the trees are burned, but the upper soil zone,
quite rich in cesium & strontium in the humus, is also lofted and aerially
dispersed. Back in the 90s, this would raise the background radiation in
Minsk 10 fold when there was significant smoke from the zone in the air. The
area around Las Alamos experienced a similar phenomenon some years back
following the forest fire there.

In mass-balance terms, a forest fire that burns the top 10-15 cm of forest
floor would loft a significant amount of cesium and strontium in that area
skyward in the ash.  The ash that remained and was not lofted, would also be
significantly more radioactive per gram of material.  The lofted material
would then be re-deposited elsewhere downwind. The ash that remained would
simply increase the surface radioactivity because of the reconcentration of
Cs, Sr, & K in the ash.  The ash, as every farmer knows, is easily
leachable.  That is why "pot ash" is used for garden fertilizer.

Just my very late-night thoughts!

Dan ii

--
Dan W McCarn, Geologist
2867 A Fuego Sagrado
Santa Fe, NM 87505
+1-505-310-3922 (Mobile - New Mexico)
HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email)

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf
Of Bailey, Pete
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 08:56
To: safe rad (radsafe at radlab.nl)
Subject: [ RadSafe ] RE : Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Radioactive Longer
ThanExpected

>Cesium 137's half-life - the time it takes for half of a given amount

of material to decay - is 30 years, but the amount of cesium in soil near

>Chernobyl isn't decreasing nearly that fast. And scientists don't know
>why

Not withstanding the discussion about plant 'recycle'; there must be an
'unknown'  source of Cs-137 to allow the measured concentrations to exceed
the values based on the physical half-life.
This 'unknown' source could be such things as poor (underestimated)  time=0
values or an underground (soils,clay etc)
deposit of Cs that is feeding the 'assumed' fallout only Cs concentration
profile.

I also believe, from my own continuing experience with Rad Env Monitoring,
the Cs fallout still occurs; sample results I see in vegetation does not
truly follow 30 yr
....but that is very tied to "when is T=0"   . . .  late 50's when 'we'
stopped' ?  how about the Chinese weapons tests in the 60's, etc.

Interesting note, however, Gross Beta in Air did follow a nice Rad Decay
curve....
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