[ RadSafe ] AW: Eating Thallium vs NaI(Tl) crystals, internationality
Dan W McCarn
hotgreenchile at gmail.com
Tue Nov 10 12:06:52 CST 2009
Dear Franz:
Actually, this is not off-topic. Remember that the WIPP (Waste Isolation
Pilot Plant) is located in the Delaware Basin in Southern New Mexico. One
of the models used in the WIPP was the early generation of gasses from
degradation of organic matter in the repository expelling radionuclides in
solution.
Well, I doubt that this will occur based on evidence of bronze-age salt
mines in Austria: 5,000 year-old textiles, organic dyes, leather, scat,
metal and wood are completely preserved with virtually no degradation. The
flax textiles are completely preserved including the delicate greens and
oranges of the dyes used in staining the flax thread. Go to the Natural
History Museum in Vienna and take a close look at these materials!
Fascinating!
There are two types of bronze-age salt mines in Austria - gassy
(methane-bearing) and non-gassy. The amazing part is that in the gassy,
methanogenic mines, the bronze metals were perfectly preserved. In the
oxidizing mines, the bronze / copper went into solution and re-precipitated
in the wood / timber supports, giving them a green patina when they were
exposed to atmosphere during excavation. These timbers were used to date
the artifacts to the year via dendrochronology (tree-rings). The timbers
presents the amazing appearance that they were only recently cut, with no
apparent bacterial decomposition.
Based on the evidence, the miners were not only well fed, but well clothed.
The discarded clothing and other artifacts (e.g. leather packs to haul the
salt) in the mines were carefully hand tooled (leather), made to be
beautiful, as well as the woven textiles. The woven textiles were woven
plaids, with vegetable dyes, still beautiful after 5,000 years, preserved by
the brine solutions.
>From the scat (feces), the diet of the bronze-age miners was analyzed and
there is a very interesting publication of recipes, complete with spices,
that the miners ate.
Have a nice day!
Dan ii
--
Dan W McCarn, Geologist
3007 S. St. Francis Drive #818
Santa Fe, NM 87508-5938
+1-505-310-3922 (Mobile – New Mexico)
HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email)
-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf
Of Franz Schönhofer
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:30
To: 'Miller, Mark L'; 'RADSAFE'
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] AW: Eating Thallium vs NaI(Tl)
crystals,internationality
Mark, yes you are right - Salzburg got its name from "salt". To go a little
deeper into this relation: Salzburg was a very important place for trading
salt and this is why it became a very important trading place - not only for
salt. Salzburg was even an independent part of the "Holy Roman Empire", the
archbishop being the ruler of this "county" or whatever you call it in
English. Mozart was a citizen of this archbishopry and had problems with his
archbishop when moving to Austria.
Apart from "salt" one should not forget that the old celtic word for "salt"
was "hall". The celts inhabited the salt bearing areas a long, long time
ago. You can find it easily out when checking place names in Austria -
"hall" is still to be found in "Hallein" - the town close to Salzburg in the
South, still showing the former wealth due to the salt mines. You may
recognize it in the names of "Hallstatt" - one of the most beautiful places
in Austria, "Hall in Tirol", and other places.
I better stop here, because somebody like the funny George Dowell would
claim - correctly - that this message would be off topic. I sincerely
believe that such off-topic messages like your and mine are needed
desperately in a group like RADSAFE. It helps to make friends, who are not
only strictly interested in radiation protection, but have also a view
around it. I have been happy to welcome quite a few RADSAFE participants in
Vienna and even other countries!
I appreciate anybody, who has an interest in the country in question.
Best regards,
Franz
Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag
von Miller, Mark L
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. November 2009 22:02
An: 'RADSAFE'
Betreff: RE: [ RadSafe ] AW: Eating Thallium vs NaI(Tl) crystals
Interestingly, Salzburg got its name from Salt! (Salzburg is mentioned
below.)
Salzburg, Austria Juvavum A state and a city, originally a Celtic settlement
and then the Roman town of Juvavum. It is now named 'Castle of Salt' after
the nearby salt mines from the German Salz 'salt' and Burg. Salt was 'white
gold' and people were often paid in salt, hence the word 'salary'.
Mark Miller
> that NaCl (also called "salt") is deadly if consumed in large amounts?
>
> This statement reminds me on the infamous statements about the toxicity of
> plutonium, polonium, radium and all other radionuclides. "The dose makes
> the
> poison!" - Famous statement of the famous Paracelsus, which is still
> valid.
> (Btw, he is buried in Salzburg in a beautiful romantic graveyard.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:44 PM
To: 'Geo>K0FF'; RADSAFE
Subject: [ RadSafe ] AW: Eating Thallium vs NaI(Tl) crystals
Dear George,
Your reply is very close to the absurd reasoning of ultra-green, ultra
anti-nuclear and ultra "against anything" activists, because you
deliberately twist facts: While I was referring to the potential hazard of
NaI(Tl) crystals being eaten (!) you obviously refer to thallium ingested as
a poison for rats (not mentioned in which chemical form). You have not given
any explanation to your comment on the "toxicity of NaI) crystals. Forget
this "toxicity".
I eat quite some NaCl every day, but I cannot see any reason why I should
incoporate any Tl - and I would urge you not to do it either.
Best wishes for your health and appropriate intake of food!
Franz
Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Geo>K0FF [mailto:GEOelectronics at netscape.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. November 2009 02:31
An: Geo>K0FF; Franz Schönhofer
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
Franz, I will eat 2 g of NaCl if you eat 2 g of Thallium.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geo>K0FF" <GEOelectronics at netscape.com>
To: "Franz Schönhofer" <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
> Franz, I will eat 2 gr of NaCl if you eat 2 gr of Thallium.
>
>
> George Dowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Franz Schönhofer" <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
> To: "'Geo>K0FF'" <GEOelectronics at netscape.com>; "'AnaLog Services, Inc.'"
> <AnaLog at logwell.com>; "'Edmond Baratta'" <edmond0033 at comcast.net>;
> <alstonchris at netscape.net>
> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:35 PM
> Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>
>
> RADSAFErs,
>
> Another case of fundamental lack of very basic understanding: How much Tl
> is
> in such a crystal? What is the LD 50 of Tl? Has ever anybody eaten or at
> least tasted a NaI(Tl) crystal? How does it taste? How does the mineral
> oil
> taste and should one also use a little vinegar when eating it? Anybody
> aware
> that NaCl (also called "salt") is deadly if consumed in large amounts?
>
> This statement reminds me on the infamous statements about the toxicity of
> plutonium, polonium, radium and all other radionuclides. "The dose makes
> the
> poison!" - Famous statement of the famous Paracelsus, which is still
> valid.
> (Btw, he is buried in Salzburg in a beautiful romantic graveyard.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Franz
>
> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
> MinRat i.R.
> Habicherg. 31/7
> A-1160 Wien/Vienna
> AUSTRIA
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im
> Auftrag
> von Geo>K0FF
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 03. November 2009 20:59
> An: AnaLog Services, Inc.; Edmond Baratta; alstonchris at netscape.net
> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
> Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>
> It is the Thallium dopant that is so very toxic in the NaI(Tl) crystals.
>
> In the early days, crystals were mounted right on the PMT but immersed in
> a
> cup of
> mineral oil. Today, these 1950's units still work if the oil is intact.
> Many
>
> of them have leaked though, creating quite a mess.
>
> George Dowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <AnaLog at logwell.com>
> To: "Edmond Baratta" <edmond0033 at comcast.net>; <alstonchris at netscape.net>
> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>
>
>> As far as I know, it is rare to have naked crystal material coupled
>> directly to the PMT face. At least it is rare in my industry. I have
>> seen it, but only a couple of times. NaI is quite hygroscopic so dealing
>> with bare crystal material except in a special facility is problematic.
>> I
>
>> believe NaI is regarded as toxic also.
>>
>> Heck, we have problems with crystals turning yellow even in the hermetic
>> containers.
>>
>> Syd H. Levine
>> AnaLog Services, Inc.
>> Phone: (270) 276-5671
>> Telefax: (270) 276-5588
>> E-mail: analog at logwell.com
>> Web URL: www.logwell.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Edmond Baratta" <edmond0033 at comcast.net>
>> To: <syd.levine at mindspring.com>; <alstonchris at netscape.net>
>> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>>
>>
>>>I believe only the older ones were coupled. Most of the newer ones are
>>>coupled directly and sealed. The manufacturers used to supply (sell) the
>>>material to couple the older ones.
>>>
>>> Ed Baratta
>>>
>>> edmond0033 at comcast.net
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: <alstonchris at netscape.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:10 PM
>>> To: <syd.levine at mindspring.com>
>>> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
>>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Syd
>>>>
>>>> Is there nothing in Knoll (Radiation Detect and Measure) that's useful
>>>> on this subject? Also, e.g., research-grade NaI crystals are mated
>>>> directly to the PMT, no?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> cja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Syd H. Levine <syd.levine at mindspring.com>
>>>> To: J. Marshall Reber <jmarshall.reber at comcast.net>
>>>> Cc: radsafe at radlab.nl
>>>> Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:16 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I looked for something, even qualitative, and could not find anything
>>>> interesting. I found some stuff related to fiber optics that surprised
>>>> me (not as big an improvement as I expected), but I do not know how
>>>> that
>
>>>> applies to scintillation detectors. I do not *think* a scintillation
>>>> detector will work at all without coupling compound.
>>>>
>>>> Syd
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Marshall Reber"
>>>> <jmarshall.reber at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "Syd H. Levine" <syd.levine at mindspring.com>
>>>> Cc: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Optical Couplant
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Syd H. Levine wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I finally got around to writing a page about optical coupling
>>>>>> compounds:
>>>>>> http://www.logwell.com/tech/servtips/optical_coupling_grease.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments or criticisms needed and much appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be useful to quote in quantitative terms the actual light >
>>>>> transmission improvement of using the coupling compounds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately I am unaware of such data.
>>>>>
>>>>> J. Marshall Reber, ScD
>>>>> 165 Berkeley St.
>>>>> Methuen MA 01844
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540
>>>>> Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>>>>
>>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>>>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
>>>> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>>>>
>>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
>>>> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>>>>
>>>> =
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>>>>
>>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>>>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
>>>> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>>>>
>>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
>>>> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>>
>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
>> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>>
>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
>> visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the
> RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit:
> http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>
_______________________________________________
You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the
RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit:
http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
_______________________________________________
You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the
RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit:
http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
More information about the RadSafe
mailing list