From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 1 01:17:54 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 23:17:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Using Radiation to Sterilize Insect Pests Message-ID: <1322723874.72502.YahooMailRC@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.entsoc.org/press-releases/using-radiation-sterilize-insect-pests Lanham, MD; November 30, 2011 -- A new study published in the Journal of Economic Entomology shows that radiation can be used to effectively sterilize the light brown apple moth (LBAM), an insect pest found in Australia, New Zealand, California, Hawaii, Sweden, and the British Isles. The light brown apple moth, Epiphyas postvittana (Walker), feeds on apples, pears, stonefruits, citrus, grapes, berries and many other plants. A native of Australia, it has been found in California since 2007. The California Department of Food and Agriculture has spent more than $70 million in CDFA and USDA funds to eradicate the LBAM, and estimates that failure to eradicate it could cost California growers over $133 million per year. The article, "Radiation Biology and Inherited Sterility of Light Brown Apple Moth (Lepidoptera: Tortricidae): Developing a Sterile Insect Release Program" is available now in PDF format at http://bit.ly/vuH0sT. Using similar methodologies in two different laboratories, the authors coordinated radiation biology studies between two geographically isolated LBAM populations from Australia and New Zealand. The results showed that for both populations, an irradiation dose of 250 Gy administered to LBMA pupae induced >95% sterility in females and >90% sterility in males. These results can be used to initiate a suppression program against the LBMA where sterile males are released, mate with wild females, and no offspring are produced. If successful, this technique can largely eliminate the need for pesticides. "These results suggest that a sterile insect technique (SIT) or F1 sterility program can be applied to control an infestation of Epiphyas postvittana, but these would still be reliant on complementary information such as physical fitness and modeling of overflooding ratios." according to the authors. "The challenge now is to identify the dose of radiation that would provide a balance between insect sterility and field competitiveness."? The Journal of Economic Entomology is published by the Entomological Society of America (http://www.entsoc.org), the largest organization in the world serving the professional and scientific needs of entomologists and people in related disciplines. ### From medina at ipen.gob.pe Thu Dec 1 07:31:13 2011 From: medina at ipen.gob.pe (Eduardo Medina Gironzini) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 08:31:13 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] International Symposium on Radiation Protection (Cusco, 2-4 April, 2012) Message-ID: <004301ccb02d$7f020f00$7d062d00$@ipen.gob.pe> Technical Exhibition International Symposium on Radiation Protection (Cusco, 2-4 April, 2012) (Stands) There will be a 20% discount if full payment is made before December 15, 2011. Visit: http://www.sprperu.org/simposio/?q=node/14 www.sprperu.org/simposio Eduardo medina at radioproteccion.org http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/Radioproteccion/ From SAFarber at optonline.net Thu Dec 1 12:55:29 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 13:55:29 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Medfly Crisis due to Radiation UNDEREXPOSURE -was: RE: Using Radiation to Sterilize Insect Pests In-Reply-To: <1322723874.72502.YahooMailRC@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014101ccb05a$cbf1d2f0$63d578d0$@net> CM SPAM detection: spam References: <1322723874.72502.YahooMailRC at web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, I made a post to Radsafe in 1998 about a rare, but interesting, failure in one important case of a 1981 Medfly irradication program in California, which occurred during the first term of then Governor Jerry Brown. The Mexican lab producing the many hundreds of millions of supposedly sterile Medflys for release to the environment had poor Quality Control and exposed the Medflies it was producing to TOO LITTLE RADIATION. Sort of ironic. Too little radiation exposure caused a major environmental impact. Accordingly, with the California Medfly program in 1981, mentioned in the link below, huge numbers of fertile males and females [they of course are not separated when sterilized] were being released to the Medfly infested areas, which caused the pest population, not to decline but increase greatly. See: http://health.phys.iit.edu/extended_archive/9808/msg00506.html The "sterile male" method of insect control using radiation sterilized insects of one sort or another has proven to be of huge benefit to agriculture production and domestic animal rearing. This technique of insect control is but another example of the benefits of nuclear technologies to modern societies. See: http://tinyurl.com/7wgljvz For example, from the US Department of Agriculture [USDA] site at the above: "The Screwworm Eradication Program Records, housed in Rare and Special Collections of the National Agricultural Library (NAL), documents one of the greatest success stories in the history of American agriculture. Led by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), the eradication of the screwworm from the United States, Mexico, and most of Central America marked a major victory over the destruction of domestic and wild animals by an insect which feeds only on the living tissue of warm-blooded animals." The "sterile male" technique of insect control was first applied against the screwworm, laid by a certain type of fly. The worm infests the flesh of any warm blooded animal, domestic or wild, and had caused much injury to humans as well if the fly laid an egg in any open wound. The screwworm had major impacts --about $100 million USD in cattle losses in the late 1950s in the Southern and S.Eastern US. It was completely irradicated in the US and all of N. America by 1966 due to the "sterile male" insect control technique involving radiation sterilization. See: http://www.nal.usda.gov/speccoll/collect/screwworm/chapters/01/019.htm or if the above link is problematic: http://tinyurl.com/88ljy9e Much research has also been done on using "radiomimetic" chemicals to sterilize insects with chemical baited feeding stations so insects can be sterilized in situ, rather than being irradiated in an industrial facility and then released to the environment. As an undergrad organic chem major [in a prior lifetime], I carried out an Independent Studies research project in 1965 using a potent radiomimetic aziridynl organic alkylating chemical [apholate] which proved highly effective. This potent chemical mutagen [as with a great many chemicals in the diet and environment] damaged the DNA of the fruit flies and worked very well in controlling insect populations. Stewart Farber, MS Public Health SAFarber at optonline.net 203-441-8433 =================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:18 AM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Using Radiation to Sterilize Insect Pests http://www.entsoc.org/press-releases/using-radiation-sterilize-insect-pests Lanham, MD; November 30, 2011 -- A new study published in the Journal of Economic Entomology shows that radiation can be used to effectively sterilize the light brown apple moth (LBAM), an insect pest found in Australia, New Zealand, California, Hawaii, Sweden, and the British Isles. The light brown apple moth, Epiphyas postvittana (Walker), feeds on apples, pears, stonefruits, citrus, grapes, berries and many other plants. A native of Australia, it has been found in California since 2007. The California Department of Food and Agriculture has spent more than $70 million in CDFA and USDA funds to eradicate the LBAM, and estimates that failure to eradicate it could cost California growers over $133 million per year. The article, "Radiation Biology and Inherited Sterility of Light Brown Apple Moth (Lepidoptera: Tortricidae): Developing a Sterile Insect Release Program" is available now in PDF format at http://bit.ly/vuH0sT. Using similar methodologies in two different laboratories, the authors coordinated radiation biology studies between two geographically isolated LBAM populations from Australia and New Zealand. The results showed that for both populations, an irradiation dose of 250 Gy administered to LBMA pupae induced >95% sterility in females and >90% sterility in males. These results can be used to initiate a suppression program against the LBMA where sterile males are released, mate with wild females, and no offspring are produced. If successful, this technique can largely eliminate the need for pesticides. "These results suggest that a sterile insect technique (SIT) or F1 sterility program can be applied to control an infestation of Epiphyas postvittana.............. From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Thu Dec 1 13:18:11 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 11:18:11 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Using Radiation to Sterilize Insect Pests In-Reply-To: <1322723874.72502.YahooMailRC@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1322723874.72502.YahooMailRC@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AFE@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> On the biologic side of insect control, I read an article about genetically modified male mosquitoes. Their female offspring do not develop wings, and so are unable to fly and reproduce. Their male offspring can fly and reproduce normally, and also produce wingless female offspring. It probably won't eradicate a population, but it will crash it in a few generations. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:18 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Using Radiation to Sterilize Insect Pests http://www.entsoc.org/press-releases/using-radiation-sterilize-insect-pests Lanham, MD; November 30, 2011 -- A new study published in the Journal of Economic Entomology shows that radiation can be used to effectively sterilize the light brown apple moth (LBAM), an insect pest found in Australia, New Zealand, California, Hawaii, Sweden, and the British Isles. The light brown apple moth, Epiphyas postvittana (Walker), feeds on apples, pears, stonefruits, citrus, grapes, berries and many other plants. A native of Australia, it has been found in California since 2007. The California Department of Food and Agriculture has spent more than $70 million in CDFA and USDA funds to eradicate the LBAM, and estimates that failure to eradicate it could cost California growers over $133 million per year. The article, "Radiation Biology and Inherited Sterility of Light Brown Apple Moth (Lepidoptera: Tortricidae): Developing a Sterile Insect Release Program" is available now in PDF format at http://bit.ly/vuH0sT. Using similar methodologies in two different laboratories, the authors coordinated radiation biology studies between two geographically isolated LBAM populations from Australia and New Zealand. The results showed that for both populations, an irradiation dose of 250 Gy administered to LBMA pupae induced >95% sterility in females and >90% sterility in males. These results can be used to initiate a suppression program against the LBMA where sterile males are released, mate with wild females, and no offspring are produced. If successful, this technique can largely eliminate the need for pesticides. "These results suggest that a sterile insect technique (SIT) or F1 sterility program can be applied to control an infestation of Epiphyas postvittana, but these would still be reliant on complementary information such as physical fitness and modeling of overflooding ratios." according to the authors. "The challenge now is to identify the dose of radiation that would provide a balance between insect sterility and field competitiveness."? The Journal of Economic Entomology is published by the Entomological Society of America (http://www.entsoc.org), the largest organization in the world serving the professional and scientific needs of entomologists and people in related disciplines. ### _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 06:14:14 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 04:14:14 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Now Being Described as Chemistry Professor Message-ID: I would think that the esteemed bereted one would even want to put a stop to the misrepresentation in this article by Clinical Associate Professor Hannah Gurman at New York University.? I went to relocate the article at the original Foreign Policy Focus site and Googled "The Under-Examined Story of Fallujah " which extensively cites articles by Busby and found pages of hits so this false information has quickly flooded the internet world.? That is the power of the fakir and propagandist in today's world. I was surprised to find that the author did do some research - it is just that she leads with the lies and then casts some doubt on them later - no one is likely read to the end so she makes the impression that has led to Tweets and over 30 repostings (that's as far as I got before I found a Tweet leading back to the original source and I decided I needed to end this seemingly endless search and go to bed since it is after 4AM Excerpt of article by Hannah Gurman at NYU in Foreign Policy in Focus http://www.fpif.org/articles/the_under-examined_story_of_fallujah follows - Many residents have suspected a link between the drastic rise in birth defects and the weapons deployed by U.S. military during the war. The United States has admitted to using white phosphorus in Fallujah, a toxin in incendiary bombs that causes severe burns. But it denies targeting civilians or employing a class of armor-piercing weapons that contain depleted uranium, a byproduct of nuclear weapons used in the production of munitions and armory and known to cause mutagenic illnesses. The Science and Its Critics Two recent studies led by Dr. Christopher Busby, a chemistry professor at the University of Ulster who specializes in environmental toxicology, have attempted to document and explain Fallujah?s health crisis. The first was an epidemiological study conducted by a team of 11 researchers who visited 711 households in Fallujah. Published in the December 2010 issue of the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, it found that congenital birth defects, including neural tube, cardiac, and skeletal malformations, were 11 times higher than normal rates, and rose to their highest levels in 2010. The study also found a seven-to-38-fold increase in several site-specific cancers, as well as a drastic shift in the ratio of female-to-male births, with 15 percent fewer boys born in the study period. In a follow-up study, Busby and his team tested hair samples from 25 mothers and fathers of children with genetic abnormalities in Fallujah. In addition to normally occurring elements, they found uranium. The study, published in the October 2011 issue of the Journal of Conflict and Health, concluded that this was a ?primary? or ?related cause? of the increase in birth defects and cancer in Fallujah. In a recent interview on Russia Today, Busby explained that, although the research team expected to find depleted uranium, they actually found a slightly enriched form of the element. This has led him to speculate that a ?whole new set of anti-personnel weapons? was secretly deployed in Fallujah and possibly elsewhere. Busby, who wears a black beret and speaks with a burning intensity in his voice, is not your typical laboratory scientist prone to avoid superlatives or qualify claims. ?This is like nothing we?ve ever found in any epidemiological study ever,? he said. Yet the journal Lancet rejected his studies without explanation. Busby believes it is part of an intentional sabotage: ?There are some serious operators out there,? he says, ?and they don?t want the story to get out.? These stark conclusions and provocative conspiracy theories deliberately blur the line between science and politics. In a world in which these two realms are generally sharply divided, there is something refreshing about a scientist who is not afraid to get political. Yet, as experts at NYU Medical Center confirmed in their response to my queries about the quality of these studies, Busby?s findings are not without their problems. In their assessment of the epidemiology study, NYU Professors Paolo Toniolo, Judith Zelikoff, and George Friedman-Jimenez were critical of the study?s methodology and cast doubt on the accuracy of its conclusions. They acknowledged the challenge of conducting epidemiological research in wartime and postwar conditions, but argued that the study did not adequately address the inevitable biases involved. Toniolo questioned the report?s claim that the researchers conducted a random sampling of houses in the study area and observed that, among other biases, the study did not address socioeconomics as a factor in the health of the population still living in Fallujah. Zelikoff explained that the findings omitted important information concerning the background of the individuals in the study, including smoking, contagious disease, and the quality of maternal health care. Friedman-Jimenez noted that, especially in a climate of fear and mistrust, the method of gathering information through questionnaires to households would likely result in an overestimate of risk. ?The magnitude of these biases, however, is not likely to be big enough to completely explain the extraordinarily large observed relative risks,? he said. ?What fraction of the increased risk is due to these and other biases is very unclear. The role of ?quick and dirty? studies like this one, conducted under difficult conditions, is not to inform policy, but rather to generate hypotheses about important questions when resources are not yet available and other research methods are not possible.? Terry Gordon, a professor in NYU?s Department of Environmental Medicine, referred to the toxicology study as both ?strange? and ?interesting.? He too cited methodological issues, including the lack of a baseline for local levels of uranium. (The study compared levels in Fallujah to those in southern Israel, Japan, Brazil, Sweden, and Slovenia.) Several of the experts challenged the study?s conclusion that the discovery of mutagens can be indisputably linked to a rise in cancers. Zelikoff explained that the study does not address the lack of information about duration or amounts of exposure. Gordon also noted that, ?While congenital effects can be seen after such short term exposures, it is unlikely that cancers would be elevated 6 or 7 years after the war.? Toniolo was critical of the statement that the goal of this second study was to determine ?the cause of the increased risk? and its specific connection to U.S. weaponry deployed during the war. ?This is a statement that most scientists would not have the guts to make. One cannot determine the cause of anything.? Despite the serious problems with Busby?s findings, the respondents generally agreed that the studies should not be dismissed but instead should be regarded as prompts for more investigation and attention to the issue Further Investigation Unfortunately, the situation in Fallujah today makes further investigation difficult. The Fallujah Hospital is understaffed and lacking in research capacity. The Shia-dominated Iraqi government has not made studies of health risks in Fallujah, a center of the Sunni-based insurgency, a priority. According to Busby, his own team had barely completed gathering their data when the government declared them terrorists and threatened to jail anyone who responded to further questionnaires. For obvious reasons, the U.S. Defense Department isn?t lining up to support any further study of the issue and routinely rejects or ignores any claim that there is a serious health crisis in Fallujah or that the U.S. military is responsible for it. In November 2009, British and Iraqi doctors petitioned the UN to investigate the cause of Fallujah?s health crisis. In response, the World Health Organization (WHO) agreed to conduct its own investigation, although it too has been delayed. A WHO representative in Iraq said the delay was due to changes in methodological design and informed me that the Iraqi Ministry of Health will gather data from households in 18 districts from January-February 2012. Meanwhile, the United States has simply dismissed the petitions as ?anecdotal? and ?inconclusive.? From ksparth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 06:51:24 2011 From: ksparth at yahoo.co.uk (parthasarathy k s) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 12:51:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby N Another reference to Fallujah affair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1322830284.29714.YahooMailNeo@web29519.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear Roger, I came across an essay in which Busby's Fallujah exploits were detailed by Babara Rose Johnston an "environmental anthropologist" (whatever that may mean!).In the same article,she has been extremely critical of an article I wrote on the absence of genetic effect in the children of A-bomb survivors. She admirably discovered my conflict of interest in the matter!!. You may be able to access the item which appeared at many places! http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/08/11/nuclear-news-nuclear-fears-and-the-role-of-science/ She did not care to notice that I have been reviewing research papers from the Radiation Effects Research Foundation (RERF) , Hiroshima whenever a new paper appeared in the main stream literature. I have been very neutral in presenting the matter for the benefit of my readers. Suffice it to say that when you are biased you cannot be objective. You tend to view everything therough a colored prism regards Parthasarathy ________________________________ From: Roger Helbig To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011, 17:44 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Now Being Described as Chemistry Professor I would think that the esteemed bereted one would even want to put a stop to the misrepresentation in this article by Clinical Associate Professor Hannah Gurman at New York University.? I went to relocate the article at the original Foreign Policy Focus site and Googled "The Under-Examined Story of Fallujah " which extensively cites articles by Busby and found pages of hits so this false information has quickly flooded the internet world.? That is the power of the fakir and propagandist in today's world. I was surprised to find that the author did do some research - it is just that she leads with the lies and then casts some doubt on them later - no one is likely read to the end so she makes the impression that has led to Tweets and over 30 repostings (that's as far as I got before I found a Tweet leading back to the original source and I decided I needed to end this seemingly endless search and go to bed since it is after 4AM Excerpt of article by Hannah Gurman at NYU in Foreign Policy in Focus http://www.fpif.org/articles/the_under-examined_story_of_fallujah follows - Many residents have suspected a link between the drastic rise in birth defects and the weapons deployed by U.S. military during the war. The United States has admitted to using white phosphorus in Fallujah, a toxin in incendiary bombs that causes severe burns. But it denies targeting civilians or employing a class of armor-piercing weapons that contain depleted uranium, a byproduct of nuclear weapons used in the production of munitions and armory and known to cause mutagenic illnesses. The Science and Its Critics Two recent studies led by Dr. Christopher Busby, a chemistry professor at the University of Ulster who specializes in environmental toxicology, have attempted to document and explain Fallujah?s health crisis. The first was an epidemiological study conducted by a team of 11 researchers who visited 711 households in Fallujah. Published in the December 2010 issue of the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, it found that congenital birth defects, including neural tube, cardiac, and skeletal malformations, were 11 times higher than normal rates, and rose to their highest levels in 2010. The study also found a seven-to-38-fold increase in several site-specific cancers, as well as a drastic shift in the ratio of female-to-male births, with 15 percent fewer boys born in the study period. In a follow-up study, Busby and his team tested hair samples from 25 mothers and fathers of children with genetic abnormalities in Fallujah. In addition to normally occurring elements, they found uranium. The study, published in the October 2011 issue of the Journal of Conflict and Health, concluded that this was a ?primary? or ?related cause? of the increase in birth defects and cancer in Fallujah. In a recent interview on Russia Today, Busby explained that, although the research team expected to find depleted uranium, they actually found a slightly enriched form of the element. This has led him to speculate that a ?whole new set of anti-personnel weapons? was secretly deployed in Fallujah and possibly elsewhere. Busby, who wears a black beret and speaks with a burning intensity in his voice, is not your typical laboratory scientist prone to avoid superlatives or qualify claims. ?This is like nothing we?ve ever found in any epidemiological study ever,? he said. Yet the journal Lancet rejected his studies without explanation. Busby believes it is part of an intentional sabotage: ?There are some serious operators out there,? he says, ?and they don?t want the story to get out.? These stark conclusions and provocative conspiracy theories deliberately blur the line between science and politics. In a world in which these two realms are generally sharply divided, there is something refreshing about a scientist who is not afraid to get political. Yet, as experts at NYU Medical Center confirmed in their response to my queries about the quality of these studies, Busby?s findings are not without their problems. In their assessment of the epidemiology study, NYU Professors Paolo Toniolo, Judith Zelikoff, and George Friedman-Jimenez were critical of the study?s methodology and cast doubt on the accuracy of its conclusions. They acknowledged the challenge of conducting epidemiological research in wartime and postwar conditions, but argued that the study did not adequately address the inevitable biases involved. Toniolo questioned the report?s claim that the researchers conducted a random sampling of houses in the study area and observed that, among other biases, the study did not address socioeconomics as a factor in the health of the population still living in Fallujah. Zelikoff explained that the findings omitted important information concerning the background of the individuals in the study, including smoking, contagious disease, and the quality of maternal health care. Friedman-Jimenez noted that, especially in a climate of fear and mistrust, the method of gathering information through questionnaires to households would likely result in an overestimate of risk. ?The magnitude of these biases, however, is not likely to be big enough to completely explain the extraordinarily large observed relative risks,? he said. ?What fraction of the increased risk is due to these and other biases is very unclear. The role of ?quick and dirty? studies like this one, conducted under difficult conditions, is not to inform policy, but rather to generate hypotheses about important questions when resources are not yet available and other research methods are not possible.? Terry Gordon, a professor in NYU?s Department of Environmental Medicine, referred to the toxicology study as both ?strange? and ?interesting.? He too cited methodological issues, including the lack of a baseline for local levels of uranium. (The study compared levels in Fallujah to those in southern Israel, Japan, Brazil, Sweden, and Slovenia.) Several of the experts challenged the study?s conclusion that the discovery of mutagens can be indisputably linked to a rise in cancers. Zelikoff explained that the study does not address the lack of information about duration or amounts of exposure. Gordon also noted that, ?While congenital effects can be seen after such short term exposures, it is unlikely that cancers would be elevated 6 or 7 years after the war.? Toniolo was critical of the statement that the goal of this second study was to determine ?the cause of the increased risk? and its specific connection to U.S. weaponry deployed during the war. ?This is a statement that most scientists would not have the guts to make. One cannot determine the cause of anything.? Despite the serious problems with Busby?s findings, the respondents generally agreed that the studies should not be dismissed but instead should be regarded as prompts for more investigation and attention to the issue Further Investigation Unfortunately, the situation in Fallujah today makes further investigation difficult. The Fallujah Hospital is understaffed and lacking in research capacity. The Shia-dominated Iraqi government has not made studies of health risks in Fallujah, a center of the Sunni-based insurgency, a priority. According to Busby, his own team had barely completed gathering their data when the government declared them terrorists and threatened to jail anyone who responded to further questionnaires. For obvious reasons, the U.S. Defense Department isn?t lining up to support any further study of the issue and routinely rejects or ignores any claim that there is a serious health crisis in Fallujah or that the U.S. military is responsible for it. In November 2009, British and Iraqi doctors petitioned the UN to investigate the cause of Fallujah?s health crisis. In response, the World Health Organization (WHO) agreed to conduct its own investigation, although it too has been delayed. A WHO representative in Iraq said the delay was due to changes in methodological design and informed me that the Iraqi Ministry of Health will gather data from households in 18 districts from January-February 2012. Meanwhile, the United States has simply dismissed the petitions as ?anecdotal? and ?inconclusive.? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From brees at lanl.gov Fri Dec 2 07:55:05 2011 From: brees at lanl.gov (Rees, Brian G) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 13:55:05 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Message-ID: Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees From sperle at mirion.com Fri Dec 2 08:47:21 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 08:47:21 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98A2B@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Brian, certainly. For example, I had a radioiodine thyroid ablation procedure end of August. One of the release of the I-131 is through perspiration as well as other body eliminations. Simply touching an item (furniture, computer keyboard or person) will cause contamination on the item or person. In my case, no matter what you do to minimize contamination, it can't be totally eliminated. My keyboard was contaminated (not significantly) but someone just touching the keyboard does and did transfer some of the contamination. Again, not significant, but it does and can occur. Hope this answers your question. Best regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From brees at lanl.gov Fri Dec 2 08:59:37 2011 From: brees at lanl.gov (Rees, Brian G) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:59:37 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98A2B@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98A2B@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: Sandy, I'm aware of Pt.s contaminating their environs, but am looking for instances of other people becoming contaminated as a result. As an example I was told of a person whose shoe was contaminated, it was traced back to a urine drop/splatter at a urinal. Thanks, Brian -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 9:47 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Brian, certainly. For example, I had a radioiodine thyroid ablation procedure end of August. One of the release of the I-131 is through perspiration as well as other body eliminations. Simply touching an item (furniture, computer keyboard or person) will cause contamination on the item or person. In my case, no matter what you do to minimize contamination, it can't be totally eliminated. My keyboard was contaminated (not significantly) but someone just touching the keyboard does and did transfer some of the contamination. Again, not significant, but it does and can occur. Hope this answers your question. Best regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Fri Dec 2 09:03:36 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 09:03:36 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98A2B@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98A33@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Brian, Yes, this is possible as well. When I worked for the State of Florida, and I inspected medical facilities, areas within the nuclear medicine department, bathrooms, work areas, were contaminated from patient elimination. I tell people if they visit a hospital, don't use a bathroom near or around the nuclear medicine departments! Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:00 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Sandy, I'm aware of Pt.s contaminating their environs, but am looking for instances of other people becoming contaminated as a result. As an example I was told of a person whose shoe was contaminated, it was traced back to a urine drop/splatter at a urinal. Thanks, Brian -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 9:47 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Brian, certainly. For example, I had a radioiodine thyroid ablation procedure end of August. One of the release of the I-131 is through perspiration as well as other body eliminations. Simply touching an item (furniture, computer keyboard or person) will cause contamination on the item or person. In my case, no matter what you do to minimize contamination, it can't be totally eliminated. My keyboard was contaminated (not significantly) but someone just touching the keyboard does and did transfer some of the contamination. Again, not significant, but it does and can occur. Hope this answers your question. Best regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From DNorth at Lifespan.org Fri Dec 2 09:17:02 2011 From: DNorth at Lifespan.org (North, David) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 10:17:02 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did an investigation of the cross-contamination of household members after patients were sent home following large doses of I-131 for metastatic thyroid cancer. I counted the thyroids of 43 people and 7 dogs living with the patients. Three people and four dogs were positive at the level of about 1/10000 of the administered doses. Most of the dogs were licking the patients, I think. A couple were definitely too small to drink out of the toilets! (I submitted this to Health Physics for publication, was asked to revise it a bit, and then I got REALLY busy clinically. So, I will probably have to submit it all over again when I can get back to it.) Anyway, it does happen occasionally, but doesn't seem to involve a lot of activity. David L. North, Sc.M., DABR Associate Physicist Main Building, Rm 317 Rhode Island Hospital 593 Eddy St. Providence, RI 02903 w: (401)444-5961 f: (401) 444-4446 dnorth at lifespan.org On 12/2/11 9:59 AM, "Rees, Brian G" wrote: > Sandy, > > I'm aware of Pt.s contaminating their environs, but am looking for instances > of other people becoming contaminated as a result. As an example I was told > of a person whose shoe was contaminated, it was traced back to a urine > drop/splatter at a urinal. > > Thanks, > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 9:47 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people > > Brian, certainly. For example, I had a radioiodine thyroid ablation procedure > end of August. One of the release of the I-131 is through perspiration as well > as other body eliminations. Simply touching an item (furniture, computer > keyboard or person) will cause contamination on the item or person. In my > case, no matter what you do to minimize contamination, it can't be totally > eliminated. My keyboard was contaminated (not significantly) but someone just > touching the keyboard does and did transfer some of the contamination. Again, > not significant, but it does and can occur. > > Hope this answers your question. > > Best regards, > > Sandy > > ----------------------------------- > Sander C.?Perle? > President > Mirion Technologies > Dosimetry Services Division? > 2652 McGaw Avenue > Irvine, CA 92614 > ? > +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) > +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) > ? > Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ > "Protecting people, property and the environment" > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people > > Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient > cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! > > I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such > events! > > Thanks, > Brian Rees > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu From radbloom at comcast.net Fri Dec 2 09:40:19 2011 From: radbloom at comcast.net (radbloom at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:40:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <577657275.613230.1322840419835.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Brian, ? Early on in my career, I surveyed and decontaminated I-131 patients' rooms.? After one visit of bagging contaminated bedsheets and?tissues (littered around the room for some reason - maybe the patient had a cold), cleaning toilets, sinks and floors, I found that my shoe cover had failed and my boot was contaminated.? A couple years later, I shared a construction work trailer with a man who had undergone a Tl-201 stress test.? It was a good opportunity to show folks that radiation is all around us and easily moved.? The toilet, the wall behind it and the floor and the sink were all contaminated.? Cleaning between visitors resulted in no?contamination found on other surveyed personnel, but I feel certain that if we hadn't cleaned, we would have seen some (low level, probably no more than 100,000 dpm and typically less than 10,000 dpm ) contamination of folks'?shoes,?clothes and body parts.? Sweat, nasal mucous, saliva, tears,?blood, urine, and feces are all?known vectors for?contamination spread from in vivo medical radionuclide use. ? Cindy ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian G Rees" < brees @ lanl .gov> To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" < radsafe @health.phys. iit . edu > Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 9:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Sandy, I'm aware of Pt.s contaminating their environs, but am looking for instances of other people becoming contaminated as a result. ?As an example I was told of a person whose shoe was contaminated, it was traced back to a urine drop/splatter at a urinal. Thanks, Brian -----Original Message----- From: radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu [ mailto : radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu ] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 9:47 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Brian, certainly. For example, I had a radioiodine thyroid ablation procedure end of August. One of the release of the I-131 is through perspiration as well as other body eliminations. Simply touching an item (furniture, computer keyboard or person) will cause contamination on the item or person. In my case, no matter what you do to minimize contamination, it can't be totally eliminated. My keyboard was contaminated (not significantly) but someone just touching the keyboard does and did transfer some of the contamination. Again, not significant, but it does and can occur. Hope this answers your question. Best regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:? http :// www . mirion .com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu [ mailto : radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu ] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? ?I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu From spencer.fisher at opg.com Fri Dec 2 12:29:20 2011 From: spencer.fisher at opg.com (FISHER Spencer -NUCLEAR) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 13:29:20 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] cross contamination with I-131 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88BEE4AFEE661246B4BF6D0AA2C64705B1E1660641@CATOU-OGMAPUWCE.corp.opg.com> We have seen this at the Nuclear Power Plants. Where one person has the treatment and the spouse gets contaminated through intercourse or kissing. And then there are cats receiving thyroid therapy contaminating their owners after the cat has received thyroid therapy.. Under Canadian regulations, the Nuclear Medicine department has to be monitored etc, but the washrooms in the corridor are considered public area. We had problems with male patients contaminating the floor, and then other male patients getting the contamination on their shoes. And finally, when performing thyroid ablation with Iodine 131, the workers need to perform bioassay measurements. And twice in the 23 years that I was doing this type of work, I found that I had picked up contamination. Both times from the administration of the Iodine in liquid form, rather than in capsule form. And one more anecdote. One year, at Christmas time, I went to Florida and left someone else in charge. Over the Christmas holiday, we normally did not do therapies, but this year we had one. So my alternate gave it out and left the patient to enjoy Christmas alone. When he returned, everything was contaminated. It turned out that over the holidays, with no procedures, patients, the water pressure in the hospital went up. Every time the patient flushed the toilet, there was huge aerosol spray of contamination. Spencer M Fisher ----------------------------------------- THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY AND/OR CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying, conversion to hard copy or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify me by return e-mail and delete this message from your system. Ontario Power Generation Inc. From SAFarber at optonline.net Fri Dec 2 12:54:11 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:54:11 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fd01ccb123$c77ea800$567bf800$@net> Hi all, Regarding the issue of "cross-contamination" of sorts involving I-131 from various practices, the following may be of interest to some. David North mentioned some interesting measurements he made following thyroid ablations [which typically involves no less than 50 milli-Ci or 1.85E9 Bq of I-131]. He mentioned some positive measurements in some family members including pets above a detection level of 1/10,000 of the I-131 administration which would equate to something over 185,000 Bq cross contamination. Concerning another "cross-contamination" of sorts from a nuclear plant to environmental media consider the following. I used to review environmental rad monitoring program data for a number of nuclear plants in New England including Maine Yankee Nuclear Power Station --at the time at 900 MW[e] was the largest power plant in New England. The annual airborne I-131 release limit for this one nuclear station was coincidentally equal to that activity used in a single thyroid ablation or 50 milli-Ci = 1.85 billion Bq. At levels slightly above the annual average allowable airborne I-131 release rate from Maine Yankee [1.85 E9 Bq/year= 5 E6 Bq/day] we were able to measure I-131 in milk at nearby farms at levels of a few Bq/Liter [ less than 10 pico-Curies/Liter]. It is likely that with the number of thyroid ablation procedures performed on people, and animals like cats at many vet centers, that if one made sensitive environmental measurements near some non-power related facilities that I-131 activity could be measured even in various environmental media, including air in the general environment not just in sewage systems or solid waste of many sorts. Stewart Farber, MS Public Health SAFarber at optonline.net 203-441-8433 -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of North, David Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 10:17 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people I did an investigation of the cross-contamination of household members after patients were sent home following large doses of I-131 for metastatic thyroid cancer. I counted the thyroids of 43 people and 7 dogs living with the patients. Three people and four dogs were positive at the level of about 1/10000 of the administered doses. Most of the dogs were licking the patients, I think. A couple were definitely too small to drink out of the toilets! (I submitted this to Health Physics for publication, was asked to revise it a bit, and then I got REALLY busy clinically. So, I will probably have to submit it all over again when I can get back to it.) Anyway, it does happen occasionally, but doesn't seem to involve a lot of activity. David L. North, Sc.M., DABR Associate Physicist Main Building, Rm 317 Rhode Island Hospital 593 Eddy St. Providence, RI 02903 w: (401)444-5961 f: (401) 444-4446 dnorth at lifespan.org From jjshonka at shonka.com Fri Dec 2 13:26:53 2011 From: jjshonka at shonka.com (Joseph Shonka) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:26:53 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: <00fd01ccb123$c77ea800$567bf800$@net> References: <00fd01ccb123$c77ea800$567bf800$@net> Message-ID: Hi Stewart Prostate cancer is treated with radioactive seeds the size of a grain of rice. One of the precautions listed for the treatment is to use condoms since seeds can be ejected into the partner during sexual intercourse. Not sure if this is another case of "cross contamination." Joe Shonka On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stewart Farber wrote: > Hi all, > > Regarding the issue of "cross-contamination" of sorts involving I-131 from > various practices, the following may be of interest to some. David North > mentioned some interesting measurements he made following thyroid ablations > [which typically involves no less than 50 milli-Ci or 1.85E9 Bq of I-131]. > He mentioned some positive measurements in some family members including > pets above a detection level of 1/10,000 of the I-131 administration which > would equate to something over 185,000 Bq cross contamination. Concerning > another "cross-contamination" of sorts from a nuclear plant to > environmental > media consider the following. > > I used to review environmental rad monitoring program data for a number of > nuclear plants in New England including Maine Yankee Nuclear Power Station > --at the time at 900 MW[e] was the largest power plant in New England. The > annual airborne I-131 release limit for this one nuclear station was > coincidentally equal to that activity used in a single thyroid ablation or > 50 milli-Ci = 1.85 billion Bq. At levels slightly above the annual average > allowable airborne I-131 release rate from Maine Yankee [1.85 E9 Bq/year= > 5 E6 Bq/day] we were able to measure I-131 in milk at nearby farms at > levels > of a few Bq/Liter [ less than 10 pico-Curies/Liter]. > > It is likely that with the number of thyroid ablation procedures performed > on people, and animals like cats at many vet centers, that if one made > sensitive environmental measurements near some non-power related facilities > that I-131 activity could be measured even in various environmental media, > including air in the general environment not just in sewage systems or > solid > waste of many sorts. > > Stewart Farber, MS Public Health > SAFarber at optonline.net > 203-441-8433 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of North, David > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 10:17 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people > > I did an investigation of the cross-contamination of household members > after > patients were sent home following large doses of I-131 for metastatic > thyroid cancer. I counted the thyroids of 43 people and 7 dogs living with > the patients. Three people and four dogs were positive at the level of > about > 1/10000 of the administered doses. Most of the dogs were licking the > patients, I think. A couple were definitely too small to drink out of the > toilets! (I submitted this to Health Physics for publication, was asked to > revise it a bit, and then I got REALLY busy clinically. So, I will probably > have to submit it all over again when I can get back to it.) > > Anyway, it does happen occasionally, but doesn't seem to involve a lot of > activity. > > David L. North, Sc.M., DABR > Associate Physicist > Main Building, Rm 317 > Rhode Island Hospital > 593 Eddy St. > Providence, RI 02903 > w: (401)444-5961 > f: (401) 444-4446 > dnorth at lifespan.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > -- Joseph J. Shonka, Ph.D. Shonka Research Associates, Inc. 5199 Sandlewood Court Marietta, GA 30068 770-509-7606 This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify Shonka Research Associates, Inc. at (770) 509-7606 and permanently delete the original and any copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof. From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Fri Dec 2 13:40:57 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:40:57 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B02@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> The wife of one of our lab people received I131 treatment for a thyroid issue. Her husband had to be excluded from the counting room, as he had enough I131 on his person and clothing to be readily detected by several of the counters. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From franz.schoenhofer at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 15:17:18 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Franz_Sch=F6nhofer?=) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:17:18 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> Message-ID: Mark, Stewart et al., The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact emissions from Fukushima. What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and "expertise". Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims and the massmedia who take such persons serious. Best regards, Franz 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > Stewart > > I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: > > http://www.llrc.org/ > > Rgs > > Mark > > > From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 19:37:33 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 17:37:33 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Latest Google Alert - Busby Still Deliberately Misinforming the World Message-ID: Lest you think that Busby has any intention of backing down on a single one of his lies short of being imprisoned for fraud, here is link I got from today's Google Alert on Depleted Uranium. The Care2 folks think that they are making the world a better place, with a Busby video link to Russia Today, they have got to be kidding. New Secret Horror Weapon Being Used? Worse Than Depleted Uranium ... People > Care2 Share > A Green Road Blog > New Secret Horror Weapon Being Used? Worse Than Depleted Uranium Weapons ... https://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/3030648 From terryj at iit.edu Sat Dec 3 13:21:49 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 13:21:49 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: Contamination References: Message-ID: Hi All, Please remember that only plain text messages are accepted by the list. Jeff Jeff Terry Chair, Advanced Test Reactor Users Organization Assoc. Professor of Physics Life Science Bldg Rm 166 Illinois Institute of Technology 3101 S. Dearborn St. Chicago IL 60616 630-252-9708 terryj at iit.edu Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/ATRNSUOchair Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/nuclear94 Begin forwarded message: > > From: Laurence F Friedman > Subject: Contamination of others by I-131 therapy patients > Date: December 3, 2011 1:15:28 PM CST > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > In the annals of the USNRC there are at least two cases of nursing mothers who were administered I-131 and subsequently nursed their infants. One case was a diagnostic study and relatively little damage was done to the infant thyroid. The second, at Tripler Army Medical Center in Honolulu, the patient was given a therapeutic dose. The infant?s thyroid was ablated. > During a routine NRC inspection of a Pittsburgh hospital the staff informed the inspector that a male patient, who had been given 200 mCi of I-131 orally, had had sexual intercourse with a female visitor the day after the administration. The patient was a physician and, according to the staff, the action was not out of character for him,. The hospital tried to get the woman to come in for a bioassay (thyroid count) but she refused. The incident had occurred a year or two before the inspection so no action was taken by the NRC and I don?t believe the incident was documented. > I don?t know if this is the sort of cross-contamination you are looking for but since all body fluids and the breath contain I-131 after an administration there must be other instances of transfers similar to these. > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > Illinois Institute of Technology > Room 182, Life Science > 3101 South Dearborn > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > (312) 842-1789 > friedmanla at iit.edu From bobcherry at satx.rr.com Sat Dec 3 14:18:07 2011 From: bobcherry at satx.rr.com (Bob Cherry) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 14:18:07 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fukushima Earthquake Moved Seafloor Half a Football Field Message-ID: <008c01ccb1f8$abae3bb0$030ab310$@satx.rr.com> http://tinyurl.com/capw85k Bob C From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Sat Dec 3 15:03:09 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 21:03:09 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net><15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. Mahatma Gandhi Chris ________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" Mark, Stewart et al., The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact emissions from Fukushima. What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and "expertise". Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims and the massmedia who take such persons serious. Best regards, Franz 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > Stewart > > I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: > > http://www.llrc.org/ > > Rgs > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 3 15:29:53 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:29:53 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <201112032129.pB3LTiO8046028@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 3 That means "you" will never win, because we will never be able to stop laughing at you. Steven Dapra At 02:03 PM 12/3/2011, you wrote: >First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. >Mahatma Gandhi > >Chris [edit] From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Sat Dec 3 15:39:07 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:39:07 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher BusbyFoundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20111203223908.LISK4.207437.root@viefep21.chello.at> Chris Busby, You still dare to post on RADSAFE? My respect for your courage (seriously meant!). After all (?) your lies and your financial interests in your activities have been uncovered? You give here a very good argument to my opinion on your mental problems which are obvious and which I soon will mail to RADSAFE: So you think that you are a kind of Mahatma Gandhi in radiation protection? Why don't you seek professional medical help for your obvious mental problems - this most recent example of megalomania would recommend it. From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Sat Dec 3 15:39:07 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:39:07 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher BusbyFoundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20111203223908.LISK4.207437.root@viefep21.chello.at> Chris Busby, You still dare to post on RADSAFE? My respect for your courage (seriously meant!). After all (?) your lies and your financial interests in your activities have been uncovered? You give here a very good argument to my opinion on your mental problems which are obvious and which I soon will mail to RADSAFE: So you think that you are a kind of Mahatma Gandhi in radiation protection? Why don't you seek professional medical help for your obvious mental problems - this most recent example of megalomania would recommend it. From bobcherry at satx.rr.com Sat Dec 3 15:46:24 2011 From: bobcherry at satx.rr.com (Bob Cherry) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 15:46:24 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: Contamination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009901ccb205$00f79d30$02e6d790$@satx.rr.com> A little more background on the Tripler Army Medical Center (TAMC) case: TAMC self-reported it although, at that time, NRC regulations did not require this incident to be reported because the administration was to a patient in accordance with physician's orders. The NRC could not cite TAMC for the ablation of the infant's thyroid for the same reason. The NRC subsequently changed 10 CFR 35 to address situations like this. The patient was from the Marshall Islands and did not know English. TAMC brought in a translator to talk to her. She was asked the question about nursing an infant because that question was on the form being translated. Apparently something got lost in the translation because TAMC gained the impression that she was not a nursing mother. The NRC investigated the incident and ended up issuing a notice of violation for not having the patient sign the interview form. The NRC was going to fine TAMC for this, probably because of the bad outcome for the infant. The Army strongly objected to the fine because of self-reporting and TAMC did everything else in compliance (not counting the mistranslation). Forms were properly signed for every thyroid ablation at TAMC except for this single occurrence and signing the form for this incident would not have changed the unfortunate outcome for the infant. The NRC backed away from a fine for TAMC. I was at TAMC's higher headquarters when this happened. When I mentioned the incident to an Air Force colleague (Hi, Ed!), he told me that a similar incident had occurred at an Air Force medical center a few years earlier that the Air Force did not report to the NRC. When an NRC staffer (and former Army officer) was speaking at an Army conference about this incident (before the NRC made its final decision about the fine) and said the NRC was inclined to make an example of the Army over this incident, I stood up and said if the NRC did that, the real lesson would be to not self-report something when NRC regulations do not require a report. Further, the NRC should have been grateful to some small extent that the Army brought a shortcoming in its regulations to NRC attention rather than punishing the Army for it. Bob C -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Terry Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 1:22 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: Contamination Hi All, Please remember that only plain text messages are accepted by the list. Jeff Jeff Terry Chair, Advanced Test Reactor Users Organization Assoc. Professor of Physics Life Science Bldg Rm 166 Illinois Institute of Technology 3101 S. Dearborn St. Chicago IL 60616 630-252-9708 terryj at iit.edu Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/ATRNSUOchair Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/nuclear94 Begin forwarded message: > > From: Laurence F Friedman > Subject: Contamination of others by I-131 therapy patients > Date: December 3, 2011 1:15:28 PM CST > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > In the annals of the USNRC there are at least two cases of nursing mothers who were administered I-131 and subsequently nursed their infants. One case was a diagnostic study and relatively little damage was done to the infant thyroid. The second, at Tripler Army Medical Center in Honolulu, the patient was given a therapeutic dose. The infant's thyroid was ablated. > During a routine NRC inspection of a Pittsburgh hospital the staff informed the inspector that a male patient, who had been given 200 mCi of I-131 orally, had had sexual intercourse with a female visitor the day after the administration. The patient was a physician and, according to the staff, the action was not out of character for him,. The hospital tried to get the woman to come in for a bioassay (thyroid count) but she refused. The incident had occurred a year or two before the inspection so no action was taken by the NRC and I don't believe the incident was documented. > I don't know if this is the sort of cross-contamination you are looking for but since all body fluids and the breath contain I-131 after an administration there must be other instances of transfers similar to these. > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > Illinois Institute of Technology > Room 182, Life Science > 3101 South Dearborn > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > (312) 842-1789 > friedmanla at iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Sat Dec 3 16:05:53 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 09:05:53 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <09334686-678A-48CE-B735-36D55B4EABC0@optusnet.com.au> David Koresh famously quoted this passage from Gandhi as well. History is littered with others to whom the opposite applies. The difference is Gandhi had virtue on his side. Brent Rogers Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 04/12/2011, at 8:03, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. > Mahatma Gandhi > > Chris > > ________________________________ > > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer > Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" > > > > Mark, Stewart et al., > > The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else > associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in > chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... > (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake > organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and > the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance > despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not > decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have > been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is > another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw > never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of > radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I > suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been > ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust > collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody > else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact > emissions from Fukushima. > What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even > Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the > first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any > explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his > name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria > is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. > Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I > have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and > "expertise". > Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic > will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of > mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. > > Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims > and the massmedia who take such persons serious. > > Best regards, > > Franz > > 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > >> Stewart >> >> I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: >> >> http://www.llrc.org/ >> >> Rgs >> >> Mark >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From bobcherry at satx.rr.com Sat Dec 3 16:10:14 2011 From: bobcherry at satx.rr.com (Bob Cherry) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:10:14 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net><15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <009b01ccb208$5584a2a0$008de7e0$@satx.rr.com> You, Sir, are not Mahatma Gandhi. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 3:03 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. Mahatma Gandhi Chris ________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" Mark, Stewart et al., The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact emissions from Fukushima. What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and "expertise". Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims and the massmedia who take such persons serious. Best regards, Franz 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > Stewart > > I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: > > http://www.llrc.org/ > > Rgs > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 16:40:52 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 14:40:52 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: So Busby why did you not post the link to your DrWoland YouTube reprisal video to this list - and where exactly is the raw data - you make all sorts of claims in this video - and yes, you have lots of fanatical political friends they got you on the DU Oversight Board where you clearly did not belong - anyone other than UK folks on the Board ever read Busby's dissent which he surprisingly found three other people to sign - that's one of the earliest of his false claims about "enriched uranium weapons" something that never existed anywhere else but in his mind - http://tinyurl.com/bpy5d8h This is the classic Busby in action. He once publicly claimed that Member of Parliament had complained to the US Ambassador about me. I was supposed to be quaking in my boots. I expect that he expects Dr Terry Thomas at Imperial College's Medical School to do likewise just because she dared voice the truth. What he really needs is a visit from lots of investigative reporters and the tax man. Roger Helbig ?On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Busby, Chris wrote: > > First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. > Mahatma Gandhi (amply commented on by others while I took a break) > > Chris > From SAFarber at optonline.net Sat Dec 3 16:47:32 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:47:32 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> Certain basic questions have been repeatedly posed to Dr. Busby about the legal status and registration of "Busby Laboratories" and the so-called "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima." [CBFCF] Dr. Busby has refused to reply to the specific questions asked of him on Radsafe that would establish the legitimacy of these entities questioned by many parties both in England by the Guardian and elsewhere. Accordingly, until proven otherwise one can only assume that the firms and foundations to which he proudly attaches his name are fraudulent. According, it would seem appropriate that people should consider not responding to any point or issue he raises until he can answer reasonable questions about Busby Laboratories and the CBFCF asked of him on Radsafe and in the major British, and International newspaper the Guardian. The few words Dr. Busby has posted on the LLRC website about the Guardian article are essentially irrelevant to the issues raised there and on Radsafe. He studiously avoids providing a responsive explanation of the key serious issues about Busby Laboratories' existence, and apparent profiteering by the CBFCF by drifting off into mostly irrelevant tangents on various radiation issues, where he expounds issues other than the questions at hand. His comments about people from Japan not presently being able to make donations to Green Audit, his personal organization, from the CBFCF webpage strain credulity given that he has provided the bank account numbers and wire transfer information for deposits to his account, such that anyone can wire monies directly to him with no accounting or control. Paraphrasing US Senator Lloyd Bentsen from his 1988 US Vice-Presidential debate with Dan Quale, when Quale likened himself to Jack Kennedy would have had Bentsen remarking to Busby: "Dr. Busby, I knew the Mahatma, and you Dr. Busby are no Mahatma Ghandi." The following discussion on Wikipedia is not meant to be applicable to any one person or their actions, but offers something to ponder as possible background on behaviors sometimes seen in in people often out of touch with reality --as by their ignoring consensus science and knowledge in favor of unsupported fringe beliefs. =============== From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Sat Dec 3 19:24:22 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:24:22 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> Message-ID: <60D40B29-6B14-488D-8C7C-5FBF6561078D@optusnet.com.au> Stewart I can only imagine that the Wikipedia entry you copied may not apply to anyone in paticular, but may very well have a picture of a guy wearing a beret beside it. Brent Rogers Sydney Australia Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 04/12/2011, at 9:47, Stewart Farber wrote: > Certain basic questions have been repeatedly posed to Dr. Busby about the > legal status and registration of "Busby Laboratories" and the so-called > "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima." [CBFCF] > > Dr. Busby has refused to reply to the specific questions asked of him on > Radsafe that would establish the legitimacy of these entities questioned by > many parties both in England by the Guardian and elsewhere. Accordingly, > until proven otherwise one can only assume that the firms and foundations > to which he proudly attaches his name are fraudulent. According, it would > seem appropriate that people should consider not responding to any point or > issue he raises until he can answer reasonable questions about Busby > Laboratories and the CBFCF asked of him on Radsafe and in the major British, > and International newspaper the Guardian. > > The few words Dr. Busby has posted on the LLRC website about the Guardian > article are essentially irrelevant to the issues raised there and on > Radsafe. He studiously avoids providing a responsive explanation of the key > serious issues about Busby Laboratories' existence, and apparent > profiteering by the CBFCF by drifting off into mostly irrelevant tangents on > various radiation issues, where he expounds issues other than the questions > at hand. His comments about people from Japan not presently being able to > make donations to Green Audit, his personal organization, from the CBFCF > webpage strain credulity given that he has provided the bank account numbers > and wire transfer information for deposits to his account, such that anyone > can wire monies directly to him with no accounting or control. > > Paraphrasing US Senator Lloyd Bentsen from his 1988 US Vice-Presidential > debate with Dan Quale, when Quale likened himself to Jack Kennedy would have > had Bentsen remarking to Busby: > > "Dr. Busby, I knew the Mahatma, and you Dr. Busby are no Mahatma Ghandi." > > The following discussion on Wikipedia is not meant to be applicable to any > one person or their actions, but offers something to ponder as possible > background on behaviors sometimes seen in in people often out of touch with > reality --as by their ignoring consensus science and knowledge in favor of > unsupported fringe beliefs. > > =============== > From WIKIPEDIA, the free encyclopedia: > "Delusions of grandeaur and grandiosity > > Grandiose delusions > > Delusions of grandeur" redirects here. For other uses, see Delusions of > grandeur (disambiguation)." > > "Grandiose delusion or delusions of grandeur is principally a subtype of > delusional disorder (GD) that can occur as a wide range of mental illness, > including in two thirds of those in manic state of bipolar disorder, half > those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance > abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one > is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions > are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, > science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research > into GD, in comparison to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. > About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet > full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.[2] > > Grandiose delusions are distinct from grandiosity, in that the sufferer does > not have insight into his loss of touch with reality. > > In colloquial usage, one who overestimates one's own abilities, talents, > stature or situation is sometimes said to have 'delusions of grandeur'. This > is generally due to excessive pride, rather than any actual delusions." > > ................. > SEE ALSO: > Megalomania > Persecutory delusions > Everton F.C. > > REFERENCES: [snipped out, to save space but found on Wikipedia] > > ==================================== > > Stewart Farber, MS Public Health > SAFarber at optonline.net > 203-441-8433 > > ===================== > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris > Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:03 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; > The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby > Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" > > First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. > Mahatma Gandhi > > Chris > > ________________________________ > > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer > Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby > Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" > > > > Mark, Stewart et al., > > The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else > associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in > chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... > (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake > organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and > the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance > despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not > decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have > been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is > another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw > never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of > radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I > suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been > ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust > collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody > else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact > emissions from Fukushima. > What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even > Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the > first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any > explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his > name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria > is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. > Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I > have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and > "expertise". > Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic > will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of > mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. > > Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims > and the massmedia who take such persons serious. > > Best regards, > > Franz > > 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > >> Stewart >> >> I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: >> >> http://www.llrc.org/ >> >> Rgs >> >> Mark >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From maurysis at peoplepc.com Sat Dec 3 20:34:37 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:34:37 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <60D40B29-6B14-488D-8C7C-5FBF6561078D@optusnet.com.au> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> <60D40B29-6B14-488D-8C7C-5FBF6561078D@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4EDADC3D.1000204@peoplepc.com> Just a suggestion -- let go of Busby -- he obviously is not worth the time and effort on Radsafe. For my 2 cents, I hope his posts elsewhere would be rebutted by HPs and other professionals, but let 'im go here. He is worth none of your time .... Best, Maury&Dog [MaurySiskel maurysis at peoplepc.com] ============================================= On 12/3/2011 7:24 PM, Brent Rogers wrote: > Stewart > > I can only imagine that the Wikipedia entry you copied may not apply to anyone in paticular, but may very well have a picture of a guy wearing a beret beside it. > > Brent Rogers > Sydney Australia > > Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad > > On 04/12/2011, at 9:47, Stewart Farber wrote: > >> Certain basic questions have been repeatedly posed to Dr. Busby about the >> legal status and registration of "Busby Laboratories" and the so-called >> "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima." [CBFCF] --------------------------snipped------------------------- From joe.zic at opg.com Sun Dec 4 08:14:08 2011 From: joe.zic at opg.com (ZIC Joe -PICKERING) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 09:14:08 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B02@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B02@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <4FEA7DC2C040854882154DD425669E286A996FAFA8@CATOU-OGMAPUWNE.corp.opg.com> Brain, Working at a nuclear station, our exit monitors are set at very low levels compared to what is measured on / from patients following radiopharmaceutical treatment. We've seen everything from contamination being picked up on the floor around toilets to "cross contamination" from spouses. Due to these complications, we have proceduralized that staff undergoing any radiopharmaceutical treatments contact us prior to returning to work, so that we can determine any required follow-up actions (i.e. limit access to the protected area of the station, calculate how long it will be before they can clear our entry / exit portal monitors, inform their supervision of work restrictions, etc...). Most of our staff are very surprised regarding how much dose they receive from these treatments / scans (compared to the low doses they receive at work) and how long it takes for them to clear our monitors (depending on the kind of radiopharmaceutical treatment they had). Josip Zic?? M.Sc, CHP Health Physicist Ontario Power Generation -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 2:41 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people The wife of one of our lab people received I131 treatment for a thyroid issue. Her husband had to be excluded from the counting room, as he had enough I131 on his person and clothing to be readily detected by several of the counters. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Rees, Brian G Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:55 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nuc Med pt x-contamination of other people Is there any documented instances of a nuclear medicine patient cross-contaminating another person? I'm even interested in anecdotal cases! I promise I won't try to promote and market pills to protect anyone from such events! Thanks, Brian Rees _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ----------------------------------------- THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY AND/OR CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying, conversion to hard copy or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify me by return e-mail and delete this message from your system. Ontario Power Generation Inc. From bcradsafers at hotmail.com Sun Dec 4 10:59:06 2011 From: bcradsafers at hotmail.com (Bjorn Cedervall) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 16:59:06 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails In-Reply-To: <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu>, <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, , <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com>, <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net>, <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk>, , <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> Message-ID: RadSafers, I wonder if any of you knows where the picture with luminescent drinks (Tehnology Club of New York) comes from - scroll down a little at this website: http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/05/radium_all_the_.html Who has the rights to the photo? What year is it from? Is there more context to read somewhere? My personal initiative, Bjorn Cedervall From terryj at iit.edu Sun Dec 4 11:07:37 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 11:07:37 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails In-Reply-To: References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> Message-ID: <64E15219-BD6F-4B3F-B639-F2F911ACBD34@iit.edu> Hi Bjorn, A google image search could only find that image on three pages: http://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZitTgje8xIPpIkSxpfVFptrs9Ki03tzjfRPN2I658aZo7KzWpUBhjPwXfBXba0YtnOcTWkooJXjclg8BtYj1g52TJ2BSBCdzH_1daoeh9lRRxMgaOUh_1yKE2UjJErOtLp74ttJGsd5CmIyRDRoz0qzCfzuehGfc0WC1cFM2JxsiEwkJqw0UxSDygZmWoo7YkTysPJQ6gwC02lIwEYLrGD4HSfJ4UyJTNW97CcYMl7Hs1rvGWZQUw2qyHEhmVoYDdjr-P7XDc4WFGBYwrA136FHj1YtKvZ6P6VMAu4dt6q2KDAcbwHJeXYq68N536VST0bmOz9iWqXB1nr8YLzMRbDxUkQOrVFWIkD66lOfbPa2CZDE_1X-YUbZdCPsjleNniypE6DNUdHMj9iSKPq_1MebcEo48KlJHPGTkw2DCfPuhfu0VYQA5NLpxQ2MuGhSlwviX3IXemLd6y_1VFHi9DDB-eoSE3T7cvOiydMOQ9c_18I58rRmvzz727V4iJXl4E7mFmIt9YQAgeeCTw7DpxCj7byQ4EQk-fLE7jcu9f9wT2s0qUnTrtWATFX4mqCtLSkgJ3fK-bNCJ_1PDkYGDJp539-XtfcmQ6UQCxtB5rSTJxOXLrf8-6PXRW80VA_1KdY8EnqBgstDABDnHLQmLJQ11vTQp9yEdPDkyKxgm0o2NvV080vxhbK0LKnf-8OQAlFTD_1Th07V7FjwgAwgnZshei9iwbvw4qZrSDaYQpvJI9S_1sjuiR4R3q-cozs8h_1BFmU9egKF8gLv39XmI21i8Z6ZZiJio9Hbvqcnker0pFs-i2tV6h5PnMmJDX7fU17UJxwGENylYf7GY1aoWFLiyqbGwEy1dnBiZGG5ln-e7wLHnLF6vnijZxi4T5YB2c6LzpPaS9Aequ_1DXNV7GsVFAit59n3k5vrnsCMmvrP6jx1hs68nt-yQGyBFG9B-rs8wUg2-61UgYF1Unly74bkIt8MOdRgg9Cwxs7MXefh-h1Te-k9IyU3vEWlXu3etdJfSZ-9xVeFvGZqPnB_1rYEMYdu9SvL7tjtC-H-GmzQ67hlYqnPp4ITtz0OUwevJiPMDdrinvfY_1t0TJ71Qu-qUzhkRu-_19xdaapfIf_1Ym3z_1-u7lcJR4Vx5nMYs2hRVjWK6O6iYhuWBstJwNIcY78VV8eFN6qkdz36WEEHUcECfsFmCuj8Y8PsbqowPCUjVXGpOzYSrpjW80wtndsutUyhSSVcY4Q5ZlpgVulCz118Va5pQoBzKMGFe-iX55jxv1X2N4izUqZCXiv_112Fk5na8vZMacnPNGo2EcEhJGXuWTKRdJ7gFxMP3-c7FL8i7g&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1891&bih=1009&site=search&sa=X&ei=bqfbTqWEK8i-2gWrrZjaBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ9Q8 Jeff Jeff Terry Assoc. Professor of Physics Life Science Bldg Rm 166 Illinois Institute of Technology 3101 S. Dearborn St. Chicago IL 60616 630-252-9708 terryj at iit.edu Jeff Terry Assoc. Professor of Physics Life Science Bldg Rm 166 Illinois Institute of Technology 3101 S. Dearborn St. Chicago IL 60616 630-252-9708 terryj at iit.edu On Dec 4, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Bjorn Cedervall wrote: > > RadSafers, > > I wonder if any of you knows where the picture with luminescent drinks (Tehnology Club of New York) comes from - scroll down a little at this website: > http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/05/radium_all_the_.html > > Who has the rights to the photo? What year is it from? Is there more context to read somewhere? > > My personal initiative, > > Bjorn Cedervall > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From ahmadalanimail at yahoo.com Sun Dec 4 12:56:46 2011 From: ahmadalanimail at yahoo.com (Ahmad Al-Ani) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 10:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails In-Reply-To: References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu>, <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, , <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com>, <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net>, <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk>, , <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net> Message-ID: <1323025006.20340.YahooMailNeo@web111707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Here is an extensive archive of radiation related photos. http://www.orau.org/ptp/museumdirectory.htm I wonder if anyone at RADSAFE actually had any of these "Atomic" toys? http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/atomictoys.htm Ahmad ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bjorn Cedervall > To: RadSafers Forum > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:59 PM > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails > > > RadSafers, > > I wonder if any of you knows where the picture with luminescent drinks > (Tehnology Club of New York) comes from - scroll down a little at this website: > http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/05/radium_all_the_.html > > Who has the rights to the photo? What year is it from? Is there more context to > read somewhere? > > My personal initiative, > > Bjorn Cedervall > ? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > From bcradsafers at hotmail.com Sun Dec 4 13:52:25 2011 From: bcradsafers at hotmail.com (Bjorn Cedervall) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:52:25 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails In-Reply-To: <1323025006.20340.YahooMailNeo@web111707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu>, , <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, , , , <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com>, , <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl>, , <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, , <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net>, , <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk>, , , , <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk>, , <002601ccb20d$8b7c7450$a2755cf0$@net>, , <1323025006.20340.YahooMailNeo@web111707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Ahmad, I have actually been at this site several times before but it is never boring to browse and find new details. Canned TMI radiation was new to me: http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/Miscellaneous/cannedradiation.htm Bjorn (Cedervall) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 10:56:46 -0800 > From: ahmadalanimail at yahoo.com > > Here is an extensive archive of radiation related photos. > > http://www.orau.org/ptp/museumdirectory.htm > > > I wonder if anyone at RADSAFE actually had any of these "Atomic" toys? > > http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/atomictoys.htm > > > Ahmad > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bjorn Cedervall > > To: RadSafers Forum > > Cc: > > Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:59 PM > > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing cocktails > > > > > > RadSafers, > > > > I wonder if any of you knows where the picture with luminescent drinks > > (Tehnology Club of New York) comes from - scroll down a little at this website: > > http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/05/radium_all_the_.html > > > > Who has the rights to the photo? What year is it from? Is there more context to > > read somewhere? > > > > My personal initiative, > > > > Bjorn Cedervall > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 16:08:50 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 14:08:50 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Irradiated Dimes Message-ID: http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/medalsmementoes/dimes.htm Thanks for the link - I still have one of the 1964 Worlds Fair (done in 1965 when I went to Brookhaven National Laboratory as an exhibitor at the NY State Science Congress; we went to the fair on the way home - it was open for a second and final year) irradiated dimes. Roger Helbig On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Ahmad Al-Ani wrote: > > Here is an extensive archive of radiation related photos. > > http://www.orau.org/ptp/museumdirectory.htm > > > I wonder if anyone at RADSAFE actually had any of these "Atomic" toys? > > http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/atomictoys.htm > > > Ahmad > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bjorn Cedervall > > To: RadSafers Forum > > Cc: > > Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:59 PM > > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Old radiation historical photo: Radium containing > cocktails > > > > > > RadSafers, > > > > I wonder if any of you knows where the picture with luminescent drinks > > (Tehnology Club of New York) comes from - scroll down a little at this > website: > > http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/05/radium_all_the_.html > > > > Who has the rights to the photo? What year is it from? Is there more > context to > > read somewhere? > > > > My personal initiative, > > > > Bjorn Cedervall > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the > > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From sperle at mirion.com Mon Dec 5 10:11:13 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 10:11:13 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Contaminated water found leaking at Japanese nuclear plant Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CD98BC0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> For what it's worth: Contaminated water found leaking at Japanese nuclear plant: http://bit.ly/rE1On7 Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 5 10:58:53 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 08:58:53 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher BusbyFoundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net><15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B05@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> "Every great idea was first considered to be crack-pot. Of course, every crack-pot idea was also first considered to be crack-pot." Mike Brennan -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 1:03 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher BusbyFoundation for the Children of Fukushima" First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. Mahatma Gandhi Chris ________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" Mark, Stewart et al., The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact emissions from Fukushima. What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and "expertise". Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims and the massmedia who take such persons serious. Best regards, Franz 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > Stewart > > I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: > > http://www.llrc.org/ > > Rgs > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From matysiw at mcmaster.ca Mon Dec 5 12:11:22 2011 From: matysiw at mcmaster.ca (Witold Matysiak) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <75C09D9C-87A8-4FCF-9D01-C4037D0C278B@iit.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF0@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <8CE7854DB092C5F-1A8-35993@webmail-d175.sysops.aol.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505AF9@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF40510B6C3@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <006801ccaf99$af1aad80$0d500880$@net> <15773DA5-0A59-447B-9BDC-AB3BD97274C5@ionactive.co.uk> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC67@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: > First they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win. > Mahatma Gandhi No offence intended, but this statement also contributes 20 points to this index: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html see point 24 > > Chris > > ________________________________ > > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Franz Sch?nhofer > Sent: Fri 02/12/2011 21:17 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fraud? -Busby Laboratories & "Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" > > > > Mark, Stewart et al., > > The LLRC is the same kind of hoax and blantant fraud as everything else > associated with the great professor and as I just read, now also doctor in > chemistry. Look at google and you will recognize the same bunch of ...... > (sorry: members of this group) as in everything associated with the fake > organisations like "ECRR", names like Rosalie Bertell, links to Gofman and > the same well known self appointed pseudoscientists, including for instance > despised German "professors", who are retired since many years, if not > decades and are not doing any work - partly because their positions have > been taken from them because of obvious scientific fraud. "Green audit" is > another piece of the mosaic - it seems not to exist. Chris Busby has btw > never revealed which laboratories have made all the "revealing" analyses of > radionuclides and especially uranium isotopes and transuranic elements. I > suspect possible laboratories close to the ECRR people and which have been > ridiculed because they found all kind of exotic transuranics in the dust > collected with a vacuum cleaner. Does this not sound familiar - "somebody > else" used airfilters from cars to measure and calculate the exact > emissions from Fukushima. > What surprises me most in the whole Busby et. al. story is, that not even > Greenpeace uses the Busby et al. fairy tales, though they are usually the > first ones to distribute any negative "news" about everything nuclear. Any > explanation? (A serious question!) Very similar is my surprise that his > name nevere has been mentioned in the Austrian mass media - though Austria > is officially the most anti-nuclear country in Europe. > Isn't it also interesting that no European scientist in our field whom I > have asked, knows the name "Chris Busby", not to talk about his claims and > "expertise". > Sorry I had to vent my disdain for such persons. My next mail on the topic > will contain a brief analysis of my medical doctor on the behaviour of > mostly Chris Busby - it coincides with my personal opinion. > > Have a nice weekend and hopefully a good laugh on those nonsensical claims > and the massmedia who take such persons serious. > > Best regards, > > Franz > > 22011/11/30 Mark Ramsay > >> Stewart >> >> I concur, have you seen reply / explanation here: >> >> http://www.llrc.org/ >> >> Rgs >> >> Mark >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From kulpjb at wsu.edu Mon Dec 5 12:37:58 2011 From: kulpjb at wsu.edu (Kulp, Jeffrey B) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:37:58 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues Message-ID: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Hello Radsafers, I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Kulp Washington State University Radiation Safety Office Pullman, WA 99164-1302 (509) 335-8175 From doctorbill34 at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:06:35 2011 From: doctorbill34 at gmail.com (William Lipton) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 14:06:35 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Message-ID: My web site, www.PowerReactorRP.com has many useful references. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Kulp, Jeffrey B wrote: > Hello Radsafers, > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with > boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues > associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My > interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know > about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article > recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are > fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able > to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about > activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the > corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in > a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kulp > Washington State University > Radiation Safety Office > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > (509) 335-8175 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From terryj at iit.edu Mon Dec 5 13:36:49 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 13:36:49 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <73DE191C-83BC-485F-B369-2084054FBCCB@iit.edu> Hi Jeff, Start with a review of fuel failures in water cooled reactors. http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub1445_web.pdf Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2011, at 12:37 PM, "Kulp, Jeffrey B" wrote: > Hello Radsafers, > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kulp > Washington State University > Radiation Safety Office > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > (509) 335-8175 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Mon Dec 5 13:36:49 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 13:36:49 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <73DE191C-83BC-485F-B369-2084054FBCCB@iit.edu> Hi Jeff, Start with a review of fuel failures in water cooled reactors. http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub1445_web.pdf Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 5, 2011, at 12:37 PM, "Kulp, Jeffrey B" wrote: > Hello Radsafers, > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kulp > Washington State University > Radiation Safety Office > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > (509) 335-8175 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bjmannpe at aol.com Mon Dec 5 14:54:16 2011 From: bjmannpe at aol.com (bjmannpe at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <8CE81A72F5F34C8-1DE4-6BE9@webmail-d084.sysops.aol.com> Jeffry: tion to the references identified by the other responders, here are a few good references on radionuclide production (from fuel and corrosoin products) ransport and measurement in light water reactor systems. These are texts or monographs (as opposed to papers in technical publications): 1. Cohen, Water Coolant Technology of Power Reactors, American Nuclear Society, 1985. This is a good introduction and summary of what was known through the early 80's. May be out of print. 2. Neeb. Radiochemistry of Nuclear Power Plants with Light Water Reactors, Walter deGruyter, Berlin 1997. Comprehensive, but very expensive - may be available from a library. 3. Lin, Radiochemistry in Nuclear Power Reactors, National Academies Press 1996. Other good sources of information are: various EPRI reports such as BWR Water Chemistry Guidelines and Operating experience reports. Requires an entree with EPRI, however. BWR Owners Group, again an entree is needed. Bruce Mann -----Original Message----- From: Kulp, Jeffrey B To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues Hello Radsafers, I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with oiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated ith boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is rimarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover o the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses roblems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the uthors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product ases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the ondensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is he condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any larification offered will be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Kulp ashington State University adiation Safety Office ullman, WA 99164-1302 509) 335-8175 _______________________________________________ ou are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the adSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: ttp://health.phys.iit.edu From SAFarber at optonline.net Mon Dec 5 15:17:47 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:17:47 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Greenpeace breach of French nuclear plant security tody - Previous story about "Peace loving ecologists" firing 5 anti-tank rockets at French nuclear construction site Message-ID: <001201ccb393$56616690$032433b0$@net> The article at the link below from the newswire today says that a number of Greenpeace anti-nuke activists were able to breach plant security at a French nuclear power plant. See: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204770404577079502371691444.html The WSJournal article states: "Two of the protesters climbed on the roof of one the two reactors before being apprehended by police". Does anyone know if the two Greenpeace activists actually climbed to the roof of the reactors or climbed atop the turbine buildings? ============ In another unrelated but memorable bit of French anti-nuclear activist history, today's news made me think of a troubling, but amusing in a way news article I read in 1982 when France was constructing their Super Phenix reactor. The news item [don't you love google] can be seen at: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19820119&id=ulUaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WicEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1835,346701 The link immediately above about the 1982 attack on a French reactor refers to an attack by a group which termed themselves in a news release as: "PEACE LOVING ECOLOGISTS" who just decided to procure and fire 5 Soviet anti-tank rockets at the reactor under construction, one hitting the cooling tower. Fortunately no one on site was injured or killed. I'm amazed at the warped logic that allows a group of activists to describe themselves as "peace loving ecologist" while firing 5 anti-tank rockets into a construction site. I'd hate to think what kind of weapons such "peace-loving ecologists" might procure and use if they were not "peace loving". Of course we've seen sorry examples of where fanaticism can take people. Wow. ============== Today's news story from the Wall St. Journal about Greenpeace breaching security at a nuclear plant in France [in case the WSJ link at the start of this post does not provide full access] is copied below: ? DECEMBER 5, 2011, 12:59 P.M. ET French Greenpeace Activists Arrested for Nuclear-Plant Break-In ? Article By GERALDINE AMIEL And INTI LANDAURO PARIS?French police Monday arrested nine activists with the environmental group Greenpeace who broke into one of France's nuclear plants in an attempt to raise new questions about reactor security. The nine broke into the compound of the Nogent-sur-Seine nuclear plant, south of Paris, at about 6 a.m. Two of the protesters climbed on the roof of one the two reactors before being apprehended by police, the plant's owner, state-controlled power behemoth Electricite de France SA, said. The incident comes as nuclear energy becomes a central issue in the 2012 presidential campaign in France, in a country that has been debating energy safety since the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in Japan in March. President Sarkozy has rejected any need for France to reduce its dependence on nuclear energy, which accounts for about 75% of the nation's electricity. But Socialist candidate Francois Hollande has endorsed a plan to reduce France's dependence to 50% by 2025. French government officials pledged an immediate investigation of the incidents and said security efforts would be redoubled. Greenpeace said the incidents proved the sites aren't safe. "With this nonviolent action, Greenpeace shows that French nuclear installations are vulnerable," Greenpeace France activist Sophia Majnoni d'Intignano said in a statement. "It's the patent proof that existing security systems aren't sufficient." The utility said the protesters didn't approach key control areas. The actions "had no consequences over the installations' security, nor over the safety of people on the sites," EDF said. The environmental group also unsuccessfully tried to break into at least two other French nuclear plants, Blayais in the south west and Chinon, in the center of the country, EDF added. A spokesman for the interior ministry said there were security "dysfunctions" that were being analyzed. How the activists managed to enter the plant's compound was unclear, he added. The government spokesman declined to elaborate on the potential need for additional security measures at the country's 58 nuclear plants, all owned and operated by EDF. France's energy minister Eric Besson called for a comprehensive investigation and insisted "all appropriate conclusions will be drawn" from the incident. The opposition Green party, which wants France to completely exit nuclear power, said the incident proved again that nuclear energy was inherently unsafe. "The human and terror risks must at least be taken seriously by the nuclear authority and the government. Safe nuclear [energy] doesn't exist in Nogent, nor did it in Chernobyl and Fukushima," the Green party secretary-general Cecile Duflot said in a statement. EDF already is facing looming costs to increase safety at its 58 reactors, while building a 59th facility in the north of the country for ?6 billion ($8 billion), a much-delayed safety- and security-enhanced third-generation reactor that is some ?1 billion over costs. EDF has refused to provide precise figures, but the extra safety expenses will add to those needed to finance the extension of some of its reactors' life-span, a cost that experts estimate at around ?600 million to ?650 million per 900 MW reactor. France is the world's second-largest nuclear operator after the U.S. The country embraced nuclear energy following the 1973 oil crisis, to boost its energy independence and to develop a world-class industry that exports nuclear technology. At the government's request, EDF conducted specific tests after the nuclear accident at Fukushima in March, which triggered a wide public debate that has grown ahead of the spring presidential election and summer parliamentary elections. The opposition Green and Socialist parties agreed in a common program to cut the share of nuclear in France's energy from 80% to 50% by 2025, which will mean shutting down 24 reactors, while boosting renewable generation capacities. Write to Geraldine Amiel at geraldine.amiel at dowjones.com and Inti Landauro at inti.landauro at dowjones.com =========================== Stewart Farber, MSPH Farber Medical Solutions, LLC Bridgeport, CT 06606 email: SAFarber at optonline.net 203-441-8433 From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 5 15:23:10 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 13:23:10 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> While there are people here with VASTLY more experience with BWRs than me (to the extent I am a reactor guy, I am a PWR fan), it seems to me the radioactive isotope BWRs most often get in trouble over is tritium. Even if the reactor doesn't have an actual leak of coolant, some tritium always seems to get past seals and into the air. If there is a place that moisture condenses out of the air anywhere near the plant, there will be elevated tritium. While it is usually difficult to build an exposure scenario in which people can be harmed, that doesn't stop it from being of interest to the media. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Kulp, Jeffrey B Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 10:38 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues Hello Radsafers, I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Kulp Washington State University Radiation Safety Office Pullman, WA 99164-1302 (509) 335-8175 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 15:31:14 2011 From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 13:31:14 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil Message-ID: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable amount of acreage is affected. What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? I assume there is variation by crop. What do I not know? -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From mwasiol at sandia.gov Mon Dec 5 15:47:18 2011 From: mwasiol at sandia.gov (Wasiolek, Maryla) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 21:47:18 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using the environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software that uses such model. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable amount of acreage is affected. What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? I assume there is variation by crop. What do I not know? -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From JPreisig at aol.com Mon Dec 5 16:22:42 2011 From: JPreisig at aol.com (JPreisig at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 17:22:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil Message-ID: <2fc46.e83b1ba.3c0e9e32@aol.com> Hey Radsafe: Hope all is well in radsafe land: This is from: _jpreisig at aol.com_ (mailto:jpreisig at aol.com) Resrad is an Ok computer code for doing radiation/environmental transport, especially if the federal/state agency involved demands its use. Other such computer codes are Presto (EPA), Porflo. Femwater/Femwaste, Modflo (USGS), Lewater/Lewaste (Penn State) and other more recent computer codes. Have a great week!!! Regards, Joseph R. (Joe) Preisig, PhD From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 5 16:49:12 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 14:49:12 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> RESRAD is OK, but you NEED to understand your scenario, and make sure the assumptions that go into it are reasonable. RESRAD will happily allow scenarios that have little connection with reality. If you are plugging in a bunch of isotopes quantified through gamma spec, make sure you leave out K40. In many soils (and water, for that matter) K40 may be the isotope with the highest activity, but it actually does not contribute any actual dose through ingestion pathways (because the body regulates potassium so well) and if there is enough K40 in the soil for significant external dose, you aren't farming it. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Wasiolek, Maryla Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:47 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using the environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software that uses such model. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable amount of acreage is affected. What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? I assume there is variation by crop. What do I not know? -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From doctorbill34 at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:32:08 2011 From: doctorbill34 at gmail.com (William Lipton) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: Keep in mind that PWR's produce a lot more tritium than BWR's, since PWR's add boron to primary coolant, for fine reactvity control, while BWR's use recirculation pumps for this purpose. Neutrons react with B to produce tritium. BWR's release much higher levels of noble gases, since the volume of noncondensible gases is much higher, and does not allow storage prior to release. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Dec 5, 2011 4:23 PM, "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" wrote: > While there are people here with VASTLY more experience with BWRs than > me (to the extent I am a reactor guy, I am a PWR fan), it seems to me > the radioactive isotope BWRs most often get in trouble over is tritium. > Even if the reactor doesn't have an actual leak of coolant, some tritium > always seems to get past seals and into the air. If there is a place > that moisture condenses out of the air anywhere near the plant, there > will be elevated tritium. While it is usually difficult to build an > exposure scenario in which people can be harmed, that doesn't stop it > from being of interest to the media. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Kulp, Jeffrey > B > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 10:38 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues > > Hello Radsafers, > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience > with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues > associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My > interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know > about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an > article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as > well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel > cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I > read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed > systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the > condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? > Any clarification offered will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kulp > Washington State University > Radiation Safety Office > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > (509) 335-8175 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 17:33:20 2011 From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 15:33:20 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> Pretend I'm a lay person who blogs on climate change and energy issues and wants to put the 5,000 Bq/kg limit in Japan in context. Be kind. I used to teach high school physics so I understand the really easy stuff. > RESRAD is OK, but you NEED to understand your scenario, and make sure > the assumptions that go into it are reasonable. RESRAD will happily > allow scenarios that have little connection with reality. > > If you are plugging in a bunch of isotopes quantified through gamma > spec, make sure you leave out K40. In many soils (and water, for that > matter) K40 may be the isotope with the highest activity, but it > actually does not contribute any actual dose through ingestion pathways > (because the body regulates potassium so well) and if there is enough > K40 in the soil for significant external dose, you aren't farming it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Wasiolek, > Maryla > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:47 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using the > environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad > (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software > that uses such model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil > > I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable > amount of acreage is affected. > > What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this > get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? > > I assume there is variation by crop. > > What do I not know? > -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From jjc105 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 17:56:52 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 15:56:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <1323129412.24780.YahooMailRC@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In projecting dose consequences, perhaps we shouldn't waste our time estimating radionuclide movement and projected exposure levels and just focus on what might be of interest to the media ;-) Jerry Cohen clip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . While it is usually difficult to build an exposure scenario in which people can be harmed, that doesn't stop it from being of interest to the media. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Kulp, Jeffrey > B > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 10:38 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues > > Hello Radsafers, > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience > with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues > associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My > interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know > about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an > article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as > well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel > cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I > read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed > systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the > condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? > Any clarification offered will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Kulp > Washington State University > Radiation Safety Office > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > (509) 335-8175 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From ka2mce at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:59:14 2011 From: ka2mce at gmail.com (M K) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:59:14 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues In-Reply-To: <1323129412.24780.YahooMailRC@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D030442@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <1323129412.24780.YahooMailRC@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I thought that already was the current practice ;-) On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > In projecting dose consequences, perhaps we shouldn't waste our time > estimating > radionuclide movement and projected exposure levels and just focus on what > might be of interest to the media ;-) > Jerry Cohen > > > > > clip > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > . While it is usually difficult to build an exposure scenario in which > people > can be harmed, that doesn't stop it from being of interest to the media. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Kulp, Jeffrey > > B > > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 10:38 AM > > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues > > > > Hello Radsafers, > > > > I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience > > with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues > > associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My > > interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know > > about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an > > article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as > > well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel > > cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I > > read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed > > systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the > > condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? > > Any clarification offered will be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jeff Kulp > > Washington State University > > Radiation Safety Office > > Pullman, WA 99164-1302 > > (509) 335-8175 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 5 18:11:37 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 16:11:37 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Hi, Karen. The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two reasons: First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you important information about how long the radioactive material is going to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption next year, it is much less of an issue. In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest half lives decay away). If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Pretend I'm a lay person who blogs on climate change and energy issues and wants to put the 5,000 Bq/kg limit in Japan in context. Be kind. I used to teach high school physics so I understand the really easy stuff. > RESRAD is OK, but you NEED to understand your scenario, and make sure > the assumptions that go into it are reasonable. RESRAD will happily > allow scenarios that have little connection with reality. > > If you are plugging in a bunch of isotopes quantified through gamma > spec, make sure you leave out K40. In many soils (and water, for that > matter) K40 may be the isotope with the highest activity, but it > actually does not contribute any actual dose through ingestion pathways > (because the body regulates potassium so well) and if there is enough > K40 in the soil for significant external dose, you aren't farming it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Wasiolek, > Maryla > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:47 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using the > environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad > (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software > that uses such model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil > > I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable > amount of acreage is affected. > > What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this > get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? > > I assume there is variation by crop. > > What do I not know? > -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From dqdx at aol.com Mon Dec 5 18:22:48 2011 From: dqdx at aol.com (Dennis Quinn) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 19:22:48 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <004301ccb3ad$2f263910$8d72ab30$@com> A quick run of Resrad shows the following: Keep in mind that there are many assumptions, and this can be considered a gross estimate: 5,000 Bq/kg Cs-137, with the following pathways: Ground shine, inhalation, soil (consumption through cross contamination) and water ingestion: 2.7 mSv per year at start (year 0), 2.1 mSv per year at year 10, and 0.8 mSv per year at year 50. Using the same concentration with the same pathways PLUS vegetable consumption, meat ingestion, milk ingestion (assuming the vegetables, meat and milk are from the land with 5000 Bq/kg Cs-137), then the results are slightly higher: 3.0 mSv/year at year 0, 2.4 mSv/yr at year 10, and 0.9 mSv/yr at year 50. The ground shine is 90% of the dose; and the vegetation consumption is about 8% and meat consumption about 2% of the totals. Regards, Dennis Quinn Dennis Quinn, CHP DAQ, Inc. dqdx at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 6:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Pretend I'm a lay person who blogs on climate change and energy issues and wants to put the 5,000 Bq/kg limit in Japan in context. Be kind. I used to teach high school physics so I understand the really easy stuff. > RESRAD is OK, but you NEED to understand your scenario, and make sure > the assumptions that go into it are reasonable. RESRAD will happily > allow scenarios that have little connection with reality. > > If you are plugging in a bunch of isotopes quantified through gamma > spec, make sure you leave out K40. In many soils (and water, for that > matter) K40 may be the isotope with the highest activity, but it > actually does not contribute any actual dose through ingestion > pathways (because the body regulates potassium so well) and if there > is enough > K40 in the soil for significant external dose, you aren't farming it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Wasiolek, > Maryla > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:47 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing > List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using > the environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad > (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software > that uses such model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing > List > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil > > I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable > amount of acreage is affected. > > What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this > get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? > > I assume there is variation by crop. > > What do I not know? > -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 19:44:02 2011 From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 17:44:02 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> Dennis, thanks. You're talking local consumption, not use for agriculture, but hobby gardening, or eating all one's food from that plot of land? You are using physical rather than ecological half life? It sounds as if the effect on agriculture is fairly small. Mike, Thanks, and you are doing great so far! Cesium from Chernobyl had an ecological half life of months in most locations . Is enough known about what affects ecological half life to make predictions for Japanese agriculture? I would think that plants with shallow roots pick up little of the radioactivity compared to roots that extend deep into the soil, but that is because I live in CA where the clay layer seems to be 2 mm or so below the soil layer. I know that water standards are very different in the EU and Japan, with drinking water standards 4x greater in the EU; they would never have banned Tokyo water. So if the accident had been in the EU or US, would the standards for ag have been different? > Hi, Karen. > > The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created > equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end > up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you > know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two > reasons: > > First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually > give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the > isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need > to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements > differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. > > Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you > important information about how long the radioactive material is going > to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a > problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), > with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a > field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on > pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption > next year, it is much less of an issue. > > In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which > isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a > given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will > produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest > half lives decay away). > > If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:30:21 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 19:30:21 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <4DD7F48A69634E2E9931609A27D57432@DocHolidayII> Hello Karen: My experience with modeling exposure has been with GENII, which I rewrote in 2003 to accommodate stochastic modeling. Let me first say that I agree with Mike. However, in practical terms, the nature of soil radioactivity (R/A) must be assessed. I can easily imagine a natural soil far exceeding 5,000 Bq/Kg. For instance, if a soil developed from a marine black clay (e.g. Chattanooga Shale, Kolm Shale, or Pierre Shale), the concentration of uranium could easily be 25 mg/kg in equilibrium with progeny and as much as 125 mg/kg. The activity of the uranium alone would be about 630 Bg/Kg, as would each of the progeny. n? = n1?1 = n2?2 = etc. (Definition of radiometric equilibrium) in which the activity of the parent and all progeny reach a state of equilibrium. For uranium, this requires 1-2 million years. U-238 has quite a few progeny until it reaches stable Pb-206. U-238 - 630 Th-234 - 630 Pa-234 - 630 U-234 - 630 Th-230 - 630 Ra-226 - 630 Rn-222 - 315 (assuming 1/2 of the radon escapes) Po-218 - 315 Pb-214 - 315 Bi-214 - 315 Po-214 - 315 Pb-210 - 315 Bi-210 - 315 Po-210 - 315 Pb-206 --------- Total - 6,300 Bq/Kg (Just in the uranium series) and as much as 31,500 Bq/Kg at 125 mg/kg U. If the shale contained 5% Potassium, the activity of the naturally occurring K40 would be about 155 Bq/Kg. Ignoring thorium, this natural soil would have almost 6,500 Bq/Kg total activity. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 17:12 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Hi, Karen. The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two reasons: First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you important information about how long the radioactive material is going to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption next year, it is much less of an issue. In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest half lives decay away). If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Pretend I'm a lay person who blogs on climate change and energy issues and wants to put the 5,000 Bq/kg limit in Japan in context. Be kind. I used to teach high school physics so I understand the really easy stuff. > RESRAD is OK, but you NEED to understand your scenario, and make sure > the assumptions that go into it are reasonable. RESRAD will happily > allow scenarios that have little connection with reality. > > If you are plugging in a bunch of isotopes quantified through gamma > spec, make sure you leave out K40. In many soils (and water, for that > matter) K40 may be the isotope with the highest activity, but it > actually does not contribute any actual dose through ingestion pathways > (because the body regulates potassium so well) and if there is enough > K40 in the soil for significant external dose, you aren't farming it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Wasiolek, > Maryla > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:47 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Activity concentration in the soil gets converted to doses by using the > environmental transport and exposure models. ResRad > (http://web.ead.anl.gov/resrad/home2/) is a good example of software > that uses such model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:31 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [ RadSafe ] Bq/kg soil > > I see Japan has a standard of 5,000 Bq/kg soil, and that a sizable > amount of acreage is affected. > > What are the standards of other countries, and how the heck does this > get converted into mmSv, assuming this is agricultural land? > > I assume there is variation by crop. > > What do I not know? > -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Mon Dec 5 21:51:59 2011 From: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us (Jim Hardeman) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:51:59 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Karen -- I'll try to give you a short answer to a complex question. Were an incident such as the Fukushima accident to occur in the US, the response at the federal level would be governed by the National Response Framework (NRF), and more particularly the Nuclear / Radiological Incident Annex (NRIA). Both of these documents can be found on the FEMA and DHS websites. A fundamental concept expressed in these documents is that "decisions" are made at the local and state level, with the federal government providing support when resources are exhausted or when special expertise is required. Two primary examples of such expertise are the Federal Radiological Monitoring and Assessment Center (FRMAC) and the Advisory Team for Environment, Food and Health (Advisory Team). These multi-agency federal assets, and others, provide assistance to state and local governments in assessment of ANY major radiological incident, including a significant reactor accident. At the present time, there are two (2) federal guidance documents for protective measures such as evacuation, sheltering, relocation (essentially what we're seeing in Japan right now), reentry, return and recovery -- and measures designed to prevent the consumption of contaminated food. These two documents are: EPA-400-R-92-001, "Manual of Protective Action Guides and Protective Actions for Nuclear Incidents" (EPA, 1992), and "Accidental Radioactive Contamination of Human Food and Animal Feeds: Recommendations for State and Local Agencies" (FDA, 1988). Please note than EPA has for several years been in the process of revising EPA-400-R-92-001, and in fact briefly released the revision in January 2009; that revision was withdrawn and the 1992 guidance is still in force. These documents do not provide a limit for radionuclides in soil, per se. The limits are expressed in terms of dose. For example, any combination of deposited radionuclides that would produce a total effective dose equivalent of 2 rem in the first year after a contaminating incident would warrant relocation. Likewise, for foodstuffs, the "limit" is in terms of dose. Here, however, for a limited number of radionuclides, FDA pre-calculated a derived intervention level (DIL) at which protective measures would be warranted. The DIL is expressed in terms of activity per unit mass or volume in food as prepared for consumption. For example, the limit for Cs-134 + Cs-137 is 1,200 Bq/kg. Assessments performed by FRMAC in conjunction with state radiological health organizations include ALL radionuclides present, and as already indicated by another commenter, you will see separate values for each radionuclide, rather than a "gross" limit for all radionuclides. However, limits may also be expressed in terms of an easily measured "marker radionuclide" if the radionuclide mix is sufficiently characterized to allow this. These calculations are performed with computer codes similar to RESRAD, and in fact RESRAD has been used, at least in exercises, to perform calculations for specific pathways -- for example, contamination limits on roadways or building surfaces. Bottom line -- there is no pre-existing limit, in particular for the concentration of a particular radionuclide in soil, especially in the case where more than one contaminating radionuclide may be present. Please let me know if you need any additional information, or if I can point you to some of these documents. Sorry for the long answer, but I didn't want you to come away from this discussion with the idea that there was a "simple" answer to your question. Jim Hardeman, Manager Environmental Radiation Program Environmental Protection Division Georgia Department of Natural Resources 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 Atlanta, GA 30354 (404) 362-2675 Fax: (404) 362-2653 Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us >>> Karen Street 12/5/2011 20:44 >>> Dennis, thanks. You're talking local consumption, not use for agriculture, but hobby gardening, or eating all one's food from that plot of land? You are using physical rather than ecological half life? It sounds as if the effect on agriculture is fairly small. Mike, Thanks, and you are doing great so far! Cesium from Chernobyl had an ecological half life of months in most locations . Is enough known about what affects ecological half life to make predictions for Japanese agriculture? I would think that plants with shallow roots pick up little of the radioactivity compared to roots that extend deep into the soil, but that is because I live in CA where the clay layer seems to be 2 mm or so below the soil layer. I know that water standards are very different in the EU and Japan, with drinking water standards 4x greater in the EU; they would never have banned Tokyo water. So if the accident had been in the EU or US, would the standards for ag have been different? > Hi, Karen. > > The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created > equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end > up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you > know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two > reasons: > > First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually > give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the > isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need > to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements > differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. > > Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you > important information about how long the radioactive material is going > to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a > problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), > with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a > field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on > pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption > next year, it is much less of an issue. > > In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which > isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a > given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will > produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest > half lives decay away). > > If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 22:01:54 2011 From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 20:01:54 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Message-ID: <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. > Karen -- > > I'll try to give you a short answer to a complex question. > > Were an incident such as the Fukushima accident to occur in the US, the response at the federal level would be governed by the National Response Framework (NRF), and more particularly the Nuclear / Radiological Incident Annex (NRIA). Both of these documents can be found on the FEMA and DHS websites. > > A fundamental concept expressed in these documents is that "decisions" are made at the local and state level, with the federal government providing support when resources are exhausted or when special expertise is required. Two primary examples of such expertise are the Federal Radiological Monitoring and Assessment Center (FRMAC) and the Advisory Team for Environment, Food and Health (Advisory Team). These multi-agency federal assets, and others, provide assistance to state and local governments in assessment of ANY major radiological incident, including a significant reactor accident. > > At the present time, there are two (2) federal guidance documents for protective measures such as evacuation, sheltering, relocation (essentially what we're seeing in Japan right now), reentry, return and recovery -- and measures designed to prevent the consumption of contaminated food. These two documents are: > > EPA-400-R-92-001, "Manual of Protective Action Guides and Protective Actions for Nuclear Incidents" (EPA, 1992), and > > "Accidental Radioactive Contamination of Human Food and Animal Feeds: Recommendations for State and Local Agencies" (FDA, 1988). > > Please note than EPA has for several years been in the process of revising EPA-400-R-92-001, and in fact briefly released the revision in January 2009; that revision was withdrawn and the 1992 guidance is still in force. > > These documents do not provide a limit for radionuclides in soil, per se. The limits are expressed in terms of dose. For example, any combination of deposited radionuclides that would produce a total effective dose equivalent of 2 rem in the first year after a contaminating incident would warrant relocation. > > Likewise, for foodstuffs, the "limit" is in terms of dose. Here, however, for a limited number of radionuclides, FDA pre-calculated a derived intervention level (DIL) at which protective measures would be warranted. The DIL is expressed in terms of activity per unit mass or volume in food as prepared for consumption. For example, the limit for Cs-134 + Cs-137 is 1,200 Bq/kg. > > Assessments performed by FRMAC in conjunction with state radiological health organizations include ALL radionuclides present, and as already indicated by another commenter, you will see separate values for each radionuclide, rather than a "gross" limit for all radionuclides. However, limits may also be expressed in terms of an easily measured "marker radionuclide" if the radionuclide mix is sufficiently characterized to allow this. These calculations are performed with computer codes similar to RESRAD, and in fact RESRAD has been used, at least in exercises, to perform calculations for specific pathways -- for example, contamination limits on roadways or building surfaces. > > Bottom line -- there is no pre-existing limit, in particular for the concentration of a particular radionuclide in soil, especially in the case where more than one contaminating radionuclide may be present. > > Please let me know if you need any additional information, or if I can point you to some of these documents. Sorry for the long answer, but I didn't want you to come away from this discussion with the idea that there was a "simple" answer to your question. > > > > > Jim Hardeman, Manager > Environmental Radiation Program > Environmental Protection Division > Georgia Department of Natural Resources > 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 > Atlanta, GA 30354 > (404) 362-2675 > Fax: (404) 362-2653 > Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 > E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us > >>>> Karen Street 12/5/2011 20:44 >>> > Dennis, thanks. You're talking local consumption, not use for agriculture, but hobby gardening, or eating all one's food from that plot of land? You are using physical rather than ecological half life? It sounds as if the effect on agriculture is fairly small. > > Mike, > > Thanks, and you are doing great so far! > > Cesium from Chernobyl had an ecological half life of months in most locations . Is enough known about what affects ecological half life to make predictions for Japanese agriculture? > > I would think that plants with shallow roots pick up little of the radioactivity compared to roots that extend deep into the soil, but that is because I live in CA where the clay layer seems to be 2 mm or so below the soil layer. > > > I know that water standards are very different in the EU and Japan, with drinking water standards 4x greater in the EU; they would never have banned Tokyo water. So if the accident had been in the EU or US, would the standards for ag have been different? > >> Hi, Karen. >> >> The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created >> equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end >> up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you >> know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two >> reasons: >> >> First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually >> give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the >> isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need >> to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements >> differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. >> >> Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you >> important information about how long the radioactive material is going >> to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a >> problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), >> with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a >> field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on >> pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption >> next year, it is much less of an issue. >> >> In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which >> isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a >> given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will >> produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest >> half lives decay away). >> >> If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. > > -- -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Mon Dec 5 22:07:19 2011 From: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us (Jim Hardeman) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:07:19 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4EDD4EA2.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Karen -- Good luck. Depending on your audience you could point them to a number of federal government websites that discuss this "process" -- I can think right offhand of DOE/NNSA, EPA and NRC. I can point you to those if you'd like ... Jim >>> Karen Street 12/5/2011 23:01 >>> Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. > Karen -- > > I'll try to give you a short answer to a complex question. > > Were an incident such as the Fukushima accident to occur in the US, the response at the federal level would be governed by the National Response Framework (NRF), and more particularly the Nuclear / Radiological Incident Annex (NRIA). Both of these documents can be found on the FEMA and DHS websites. > > A fundamental concept expressed in these documents is that "decisions" are made at the local and state level, with the federal government providing support when resources are exhausted or when special expertise is required. Two primary examples of such expertise are the Federal Radiological Monitoring and Assessment Center (FRMAC) and the Advisory Team for Environment, Food and Health (Advisory Team). These multi-agency federal assets, and others, provide assistance to state and local governments in assessment of ANY major radiological incident, including a significant reactor accident. > > At the present time, there are two (2) federal guidance documents for protective measures such as evacuation, sheltering, relocation (essentially what we're seeing in Japan right now), reentry, return and recovery -- and measures designed to prevent the consumption of contaminated food. These two documents are: > > EPA-400-R-92-001, "Manual of Protective Action Guides and Protective Actions for Nuclear Incidents" (EPA, 1992), and > > "Accidental Radioactive Contamination of Human Food and Animal Feeds: Recommendations for State and Local Agencies" (FDA, 1988). > > Please note than EPA has for several years been in the process of revising EPA-400-R-92-001, and in fact briefly released the revision in January 2009; that revision was withdrawn and the 1992 guidance is still in force. > > These documents do not provide a limit for radionuclides in soil, per se. The limits are expressed in terms of dose. For example, any combination of deposited radionuclides that would produce a total effective dose equivalent of 2 rem in the first year after a contaminating incident would warrant relocation. > > Likewise, for foodstuffs, the "limit" is in terms of dose. Here, however, for a limited number of radionuclides, FDA pre-calculated a derived intervention level (DIL) at which protective measures would be warranted. The DIL is expressed in terms of activity per unit mass or volume in food as prepared for consumption. For example, the limit for Cs-134 + Cs-137 is 1,200 Bq/kg. > > Assessments performed by FRMAC in conjunction with state radiological health organizations include ALL radionuclides present, and as already indicated by another commenter, you will see separate values for each radionuclide, rather than a "gross" limit for all radionuclides. However, limits may also be expressed in terms of an easily measured "marker radionuclide" if the radionuclide mix is sufficiently characterized to allow this. These calculations are performed with computer codes similar to RESRAD, and in fact RESRAD has been used, at least in exercises, to perform calculations for specific pathways -- for example, contamination limits on roadways or building surfaces. > > Bottom line -- there is no pre-existing limit, in particular for the concentration of a particular radionuclide in soil, especially in the case where more than one contaminating radionuclide may be present. > > Please let me know if you need any additional information, or if I can point you to some of these documents. Sorry for the long answer, but I didn't want you to come away from this discussion with the idea that there was a "simple" answer to your question. > > > > > Jim Hardeman, Manager > Environmental Radiation Program > Environmental Protection Division > Georgia Department of Natural Resources > 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 > Atlanta, GA 30354 > (404) 362-2675 > Fax: (404) 362-2653 > Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 > E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us > >>>> Karen Street 12/5/2011 20:44 >>> > Dennis, thanks. You're talking local consumption, not use for agriculture, but hobby gardening, or eating all one's food from that plot of land? You are using physical rather than ecological half life? It sounds as if the effect on agriculture is fairly small. > > Mike, > > Thanks, and you are doing great so far! > > Cesium from Chernobyl had an ecological half life of months in most locations . Is enough known about what affects ecological half life to make predictions for Japanese agriculture? > > I would think that plants with shallow roots pick up little of the radioactivity compared to roots that extend deep into the soil, but that is because I live in CA where the clay layer seems to be 2 mm or so below the soil layer. > > > I know that water standards are very different in the EU and Japan, with drinking water standards 4x greater in the EU; they would never have banned Tokyo water. So if the accident had been in the EU or US, would the standards for ag have been different? > >> Hi, Karen. >> >> The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created >> equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and end >> up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until you >> know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for two >> reasons: >> >> First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will usually >> give you an idea about how well the plants in question will remove the >> isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you obviously need >> to know what plant you are talking about, too). Different elements >> differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. >> >> Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives you >> important information about how long the radioactive material is going >> to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to be a >> problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 (I131), >> with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is on a >> field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is on >> pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for consumption >> next year, it is much less of an issue. >> >> In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which >> isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a >> given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will >> produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest >> half lives decay away). >> >> If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. > > -- -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 06:14:48 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 04:14:48 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargo container 307703 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Fred Date: Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:05 AM Subject: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargo container 307703 To: srp-uk at yahoogroups.com from Wired magazine "Enzo Montagna pulled his Fiat into Voltri Terminal Europa, a sprawling port on the western edge of Genoa, flashed his ID at the guard and parked in a small lot near the low-slung customs office. In Italy, all cargo containers carrying scrap metal get checked by hand for radiation, before they're allowed off the docks. At Voltri, this job falls to Montagna, a 49-year-old independent consultant certified by the Italian government. By the time he arrived, longshoremen had gathered eleven six-metre-long, 2.5-metre-wide containers, relying on manifests to determine which ones needed to be scanned. The boxes were lined up near the terminal's entrance. Montagna grabbed his radiation monitor -- a Ludlum Model 3 about the size of a toaster. He plugged in a sensor wand and set the device down 18 metres away from the containers. The Model 3 emits a beep every time it detects a radioactive particle; Montagna turned it on, and the meter's needle swung past the maximum reading of 500,000 counts per minute. Instead of its usual staccato chirps, the machine was whining continuously and frantically. That didn't worry Montagna; the port's humid air sometimes corroded the connections. He turned the detector off, replaced the cable between the wand and the box with a spare, and turned the device back on. It started wailing again. Montagna was being bathed in radiation. One of the containers in front of him held a lethal secret, but was that secret merely a slow-motion radioactive industrial accident, or a bomb -- one that could destroy the 24 kilometre waterfront? Montagna ran to his car to get a less sensitive detector. He didn't think about protection; at those levels, he would have needed lead armour 12cm thick to stand within a metre of the source for long." continues at http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?page=1 http://tinyurl.com/7ybbcbr From ronald.cotter at navy.mil Tue Dec 6 08:25:54 2011 From: ronald.cotter at navy.mil (Cotter, Ronald R CIV PORTS, 105.5) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:25:54 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] steel calibration spheres Message-ID: <41F6CA45-E5AA-4810-9FD9-25227C4100AC@mimectl> I am looking for a full set of steel calibration spheres. In the old days we used them to calibrate the National Nuclear Corporation (NNC) Waste Curie Monitors (WCM). We now use them to calibrate the newer Canberra Cronos item counting systems. The sets that we have and Puget Sound Naval Shipyard has includes 14 spheres from 1-50 lbs. If nobody has a set they want to get rid of does anybody know what company supplied NNC with the sets that came with the WCMs? At this time I can get 10 spheres from NNSY. However, I have not been told what weights they are. Ronald R. Cotter, CHP Bldg H-1, Code 105.51 Portsmouth Naval Shipyard Work (207) 438-2697 Fax (207) 438-1798 This is the NMCI Email System--Do Not Include NNPI From dqdx at aol.com Tue Dec 6 09:11:26 2011 From: dqdx at aol.com (Dennis Quinn) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:11:26 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <006401ccb429$52eacc40$f8c064c0$@com> Karen, Yes, this is local consumption; however, the dose if used for a large agricultural farm would be similar, assuming an individual received all the food from that farm. Most likely individuals would only receive part of their food source from any one farm. The term ecological half life I assume means that it's related to the amount of time the radionuclide is available to the ecosystem. Resrad considers that to an extent, but only to the extent that it is available on the surface (or not). Cesium tends to bind with soil and is not transferred down through the soil to the water table easily, so the dose will primarily be from the direct dose from the gamma rays due to surface cesium. Other radionuclides will be different. Since most of the dose is from the surface, remediation of the surface layer (removal) or covering with a layer of clean soil could be effective. Regards, Dennis Quinn Dennis Quinn, CHP dqdx at aol.com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:44 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Dennis, thanks. You're talking local consumption, not use for agriculture, but hobby gardening, or eating all one's food from that plot of land? You are using physical rather than ecological half life? It sounds as if the effect on agriculture is fairly small. Mike, Thanks, and you are doing great so far! Cesium from Chernobyl had an ecological half life of months in most locations . Is enough known about what affects ecological half life to make predictions for Japanese agriculture? I would think that plants with shallow roots pick up little of the radioactivity compared to roots that extend deep into the soil, but that is because I live in CA where the clay layer seems to be 2 mm or so below the soil layer. I know that water standards are very different in the EU and Japan, with drinking water standards 4x greater in the EU; they would never have banned Tokyo water. So if the accident had been in the EU or US, would the standards for ag have been different? > Hi, Karen. > > The first point to keep in mind is that all becquerel are not created > equal, especially when trying to start with soil concentrations and > end up with dose from ingestion. You really can't say anything until > you know what isotope you are dealing with. You need to know this for > two > reasons: > > First, knowing the isotope lets you know the element, which will > usually give you an idea about how well the plants in question will > remove the isotope from the soil and make it part of the plant (you > obviously need to know what plant you are talking about, too). > Different elements differ wildly on how, or even if, they are taken up by different plants. > > Second, knowing the isotope lets you know the half-life, which gives > you important information about how long the radioactive material is > going to be around. This lets you know if it is potentially going to > be a problem. If, for example, the isotope of concern is iodine-131 > (I131), with an 8 day half life, you know it will be an issue if it is > on a field of lettuce scheduled to be harvested this week. If it is > on pumpkins to be harvested in three months, then canned for > consumption next year, it is much less of an issue. > > In an event like Fukushima, it can be a challenge figuring out which > isotope is the one to be most concerned about in a given area, for a > given crop, at a given time (as time goes by the isotope that will > produce the greatest dose will change, as the ones with the shortest > half lives decay away). > > If this is a useful level of detail, let me know, and I will continue. -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Tue Dec 6 11:34:34 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:34:34 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net><4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Hi, Karen. When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets complicated." That usually gets a laugh. That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require gathering data in order to come up with something useful. Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left to learn. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. From jmarshall.reber at comcast.net Tue Dec 6 11:53:59 2011 From: jmarshall.reber at comcast.net (J. Marshall Reber) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 12:53:59 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle but significant widespread psychosis predicated on fictions! Message-ID: Leslie Corrice has produced an excellent website that should be examined by everyone before graduating from high school: http://www.hiroshimasyndrome.com J. Marshall Reber, ScD 165 Berkeley St. Methuen MA 01844 Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu From CJB01 at health.state.ny.us Tue Dec 6 12:30:23 2011 From: CJB01 at health.state.ny.us (Clayton J Bradt) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 13:30:23 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Good article on Co-60 source found in Genoa 7/20/10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?page=1 Is there more info out there on this, like how many panoramic irradiators there are in Saudi Arabia? With the limited number of manufacturers of these sources this one shouldn't be too hard to trace. Clayton J. Bradt Principal Radiophysicist NYS Dept. of Health Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A Empire State Plaza Albany, NY 12201-0509 518-474-1993 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. From CJB01 at health.state.ny.us Tue Dec 6 12:38:14 2011 From: CJB01 at health.state.ny.us (Clayton J Bradt) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 13:38:14 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Another article about diversion of HEU from NUMEC plant. Message-ID: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Dec-05/155997-israel-stole-uranium-from-us-report-will-show.ashx#axzz1fmTMYJqG The soon-to-be-released report mentioned in the article should make interesting reading. Clayton J. Bradt Principal Radiophysicist NYS Dept. of Health Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A Empire State Plaza Albany, NY 12201-0509 518-474-1993 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. From michael.cowie at aramco.com Tue Dec 6 12:42:04 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:42:04 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Good article on Co-60 source found in Genoa 7/20/10 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <79CD1E46-8CF3-4382-8BC2-8D6A515D394F@aramco.com> I think the source actually came from the UAE, not Saudi Arabia, although it seems to have been transported through Saudi. Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 6, 2011, at 9:31 PM, "Clayton J Bradt" wrote: > http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?page=1 > > Is there more info out there on this, like how many panoramic irradiators > there are in Saudi Arabia? With the limited number of manufacturers of > these sources this one shouldn't be too hard to trace. > > Clayton J. Bradt > Principal Radiophysicist > NYS Dept. of Health > Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A > Empire State Plaza > Albany, NY 12201-0509 > > 518-474-1993 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From idias at interchange.ubc.ca Tue Dec 6 13:04:03 2011 From: idias at interchange.ubc.ca (John R Johnson) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:04:03 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> Mike I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need potassium to live. John -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Hi, Karen. When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets complicated." That usually gets a laugh. That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require gathering data in order to come up with something useful. Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left to learn. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rjgunter at chpconsultants.com Tue Dec 6 13:12:05 2011 From: rjgunter at chpconsultants.com (Robert J Gunter) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:12:05 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Wanted: uR meters and HEPA units In-Reply-To: <410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> Message-ID: <011101ccb44a$f29ce590$d7d6b0b0$@com> Greetings All, I am looking for uR meters, either a Ludlum Model 19, 3-97, or 12S or equivalent and some HEPA units (uncontaminated). Please call or email if you have any extras. Thanks, Rob Robert J. Gunter, MSc, CHP CHP Consultants/CHP Dosimetry www.chpconsultants.com www.chpdosimetry.com Toll Free: (888) 766-4833 Fax: (866) 491-9913 Cel: (865) 387-0028 rjgunter at chpconsultants.com --- From prestwic at mcmaster.ca Tue Dec 6 13:35:28 2011 From: prestwic at mcmaster.ca (Bill Prestwich) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:35:28 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> Message-ID: <002301ccb44e$35a1b2a0$a0e517e0$@ca> Most people are quite surprised to learn they are themselves radioactive and are typically radiating some 400 gammas per second due to the K-40. Bill -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:04 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Mike I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need potassium to live. John -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Hi, Karen. When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets complicated." That usually gets a laugh. That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require gathering data in order to come up with something useful. Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left to learn. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Tue Dec 6 13:45:01 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 11:45:01 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <002301ccb44e$35a1b2a0$a0e517e0$@ca> References: <0515B868-AFF4-4457-9E6D-304F33BD8D30@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0C@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <2EA76895-1E8A-4FA6-B077-A644671A294C@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B0E@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <9433CA90-3F36-495C-A838-7949833B8CB9@sbcglobal.net> <4EDD4B0A.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <1DF14D9A-32E6-4A29-BDF8-F9848FFCCD62@sbcglobal.net> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B11@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><410C49AE14D84881B710F6E22E3DBC84@userHP> <002301ccb44e$35a1b2a0$a0e517e0$@ca> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B13@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Years ago I got a call from someone who had just learned about K40, and wanted to know how to get rid of it, because he didn't want to be exposed to any radiation at all. Alas, he was not a satisfied customer, because he didn't want to hear that (a) it couldn't be done and (b) trying would kill him. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Prestwich Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 11:35 AM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Most people are quite surprised to learn they are themselves radioactive and are typically radiating some 400 gammas per second due to the K-40. Bill -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:04 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Mike I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need potassium to live. John -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Hi, Karen. When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets complicated." That usually gets a laugh. That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require gathering data in order to come up with something useful. Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left to learn. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want to explain to the public. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Tue Dec 6 13:57:20 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:57:20 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <002301ccb44e$35a1b2a0$a0e517e0$@ca> Message-ID: <20111206205732.ODSH4.216634.root@viefep21.chello.at> Bill, Why are "most people" not informed about this fact? So much discussion is going on on RADSAFE, but obviously nobody explains this fact to either the public nor to the authorities. The latter ones should know, but why do they hide this fact? Why to blame whomsoever? Best regards, Franz ---- Bill Prestwich schrieb: > Most people are quite surprised to learn they are themselves radioactive and > are typically radiating some 400 gammas per second due to the K-40. > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:04 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Mike > > I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need > potassium to live. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Hi, Karen. > > When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually > explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and > specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic > (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative > terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets > complicated." That usually gets a laugh. > > That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk > increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 > assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be > asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out > and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the > assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require > gathering data in order to come up with something useful. > > Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to > think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your > difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." > This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've > learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left > to learn. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want > to explain to the public. > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Tue Dec 6 13:57:20 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:57:20 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <002301ccb44e$35a1b2a0$a0e517e0$@ca> Message-ID: <20111206205732.ODSH4.216634.root@viefep21.chello.at> Bill, Why are "most people" not informed about this fact? So much discussion is going on on RADSAFE, but obviously nobody explains this fact to either the public nor to the authorities. The latter ones should know, but why do they hide this fact? Why to blame whomsoever? Best regards, Franz ---- Bill Prestwich schrieb: > Most people are quite surprised to learn they are themselves radioactive and > are typically radiating some 400 gammas per second due to the K-40. > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:04 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Mike > > I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need > potassium to live. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Hi, Karen. > > When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually > explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and > specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic > (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative > terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets > complicated." That usually gets a laugh. > > That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk > increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 > assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be > asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out > and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the > assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require > gathering data in order to come up with something useful. > > Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to > think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your > difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." > This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've > learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left > to learn. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want > to explain to the public. > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Tue Dec 6 14:04:44 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 21:04:44 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B13@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <20111206210445.FY2HJ.216663.root@viefep21.chello.at> Mike, Not so surprising after having been involved in answering long time ago Chernobyl related questions in Austria - "Can I eat the mushrooms I collected yesterday in the xxxx forest?" It seems fortunately that he did not know about K-40! BTW this person was obviously satisfied after I told him, if he brought them to me, I would fry them in front of him in butter and eat them........ Best regards and happy treatment of radiophobia! Franz ---- "Brennan schrieb: > Years ago I got a call from someone who had just learned about K40, and > wanted to know how to get rid of it, because he didn't want to be > exposed to any radiation at all. Alas, he was not a satisfied customer, > because he didn't want to hear that (a) it couldn't be done and (b) > trying would kill him. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Prestwich > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 11:35 AM > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing > List' > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Most people are quite surprised to learn they are themselves radioactive > and > are typically radiating some 400 gammas per second due to the K-40. > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:04 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Mike > > I usually add that K-40 is a naturally occurring isotope, and we need > potassium to live. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:34 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Hi, Karen. > > When I am explaining rad issues to members of the public, I usually > explain some of the basic principles, such as decay and energy and > specific activity/ half life, and then address the specific topic > (radon, fallout, depleted uranium, whatever) in broad, qualitative > terms. At that point I pause and say, "Now, from here on out, it gets > complicated." That usually gets a laugh. > > That isn't, however, a cop-out. A question like, "How does risk > increase with increased contamination on farm land?" has probably 100 > assumptions that need to be made or clarifying questions that need to be > asked before a meaningful answer can be given (and if we parsed it out > and found it was closer to 200, I wouldn't be surprised). Some of the > assumptions can be fairly straight forward, but some would require > gathering data in order to come up with something useful. > > Without for a moment claiming I can hold a candle to Einstein, I like to > think I understand what he meant when he said, "Do not worry about your > difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." > This isn't discouragement; rather it implies that even when you've > learned a lot about a cool subject (like rad), there is still a lot left > to learn. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:02 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [EXTERNAL] Bq/kg soil > > Jim and others, much thanks for your help! Now to figure out what I want > to explain to the public. > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Tue Dec 6 14:17:15 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 21:17:15 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle but significantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20111206211715.CN21A.216695.root@viefep21.chello.at> j, Marshall Reber, I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. What you provide here is only US- -- "J. Marshall Reber" schrieb: > Leslie Corrice has produced an excellent website that should be examined by everyone before graduating from high school: > > http://www.hiroshimasyndrome.com > > > > J. Marshall Reber, ScD > 165 Berkeley St. > Methuen MA 01844 > > Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 > Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From jmarshall.reber at comcast.net Tue Dec 6 15:26:21 2011 From: jmarshall.reber at comcast.net (J. Marshall Reber) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:26:21 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle but significantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: <20111206211715.CN21A.216695.root@viefep21.chello.at> References: <20111206211715.CN21A.216695.root@viefep21.chello.at> Message-ID: <3855A032-60D1-412D-839E-2C917AD192A5@comcast.net> On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: > j, Marshall Reber, > > I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. J. Marshall Reber, ScD 165 Berkeley St. Methuen MA 01844 Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu From ahmadalanimail at yahoo.com Tue Dec 6 22:18:16 2011 From: ahmadalanimail at yahoo.com (Ahmad Al-Ani) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle but significantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! Message-ID: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that many to tip the voting results one way or another. We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the science for experts only. Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. Ahmad Al-Ani Radiation Physicist > >On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: > >> j, Marshall Reber, >> >> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. > >Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. > >J. Marshall Reber, ScD >165 Berkeley St. >Methuen MA 01844 > >Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 23:21:10 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 22:21:10 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Ahmad & Franz: I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". My copies have my early artistic attempts in crayon. My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years old. I must have read those books 100 times! "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the light of current developments in physics today." They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to read! Dan ii P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? Did you get a lump of coal? -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that many to tip the voting results one way or another. We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the science for experts only. Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. Ahmad Al-Ani Radiation Physicist > >On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: > >> j, Marshall Reber, >> >> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. > >Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. > >J. Marshall Reber, ScD >165 Berkeley St. >Methuen MA 01844 > >Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From mso at forsmark.vattenfall.se Wed Dec 7 03:15:01 2011 From: mso at forsmark.vattenfall.se (Olsson Mattias :MSO) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:15:01 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues Message-ID: <6DB2631F05FDEF4D9F6F633E2FC8C7CF23CFA596@PMSX1M.fka.forsmark.vattenfall.se> Hi, During operation the turbine hall and any area near the steam lines and turbines hold elevated dose rates due to short-lived isotopes such as the N-16 you mention (activation product of oxygen). Elevated enough not to allow just anyone to access such rooms. After shut-down the dose rate goes down quickly and access does not need to be restricted (more than it is normally anywhere in the controlled area). During an outage the dose to staff that works near the steam lines is generally dominated by Co-60. The inside of the steam lines is contaminated from droplets of reactor water that are carried over with the steam. A well dried steam at the exit of the reactor tank will minimize this issue. I am not aware of any problems with the condensate or feed water. Radioactivity in those systems is low. If you want to know the typica radioactivity levels in your plant systems you should be able to find them in your plant SAR. Fission products are released during operation with failed fuel, but they can also be formed directly outside the fuel cladding from uranium contamination on the fuel assemblies. There is always a small contamination from the factory to begin with, and severe fuel failures may cause further uranium contamination. Uranium on core surfaces will fission just as happily as it does inside the fuel. Unless there are severe fuel failures or core contamination, iodine should not be a problem even though it would be elevated in the reactor water. The radioactive noble gases will end up in your off-gas system (as will all non-condensable gases that are sucked from the condensor). Those gases may pass through a delay system to allow them to decay before release into the air. Some delay systems can even deal effectively with the more long lived Xe-133, but Kr-85 would be more difficult. Corrosion products that enter the reactor tank, either from the feed water or from the corrosion of materials inside the tank or other connected systems, will be activated by the neutron flux of the core. They will then spread to system surfaces to some extent (including by carry-over to the steam lines an mentioned above). Activated corrosion products on system surfaces, such as in many pipes in the reactor building, will cause dose rates that far exceed that from just the reactor water inside such pipes. Co-60 usually dominates. At my plant I've seen contact dose rates from such pipes up to about 10-15 mSv/h. To minimize this problem you could use system decontaminations, and you should try to avoid the situation. This can be done by wise material choices, good cleaning systems (the condensate clean-up being really important since a turbine system may release hundreds of kilograms of corrosion products per year - those should not be allowed to enter the reactor) and a good plant water chemistry. Some elements that you do NOT want to use in your plant in contact with the primary system would be cobalt, antimony and silver. They get activated especially nastily into Co-60, Sb-124, Ag-110m... Mattias Olsson Forsmark NPP (3 x BWR) -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr?n: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] F?r Kulp, Jeffrey B Skickat: den 5 december 2011 19:38 Till: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List ?mne: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety issues Hello Radsafers, I would like to call on the expertise of any HP's who have experience with boiling water reactors; I am interested in radiation safety issues associated with boiling water reactors while operating and shutdown. My interest is primarily in the steam, condensate and feed systems. I know about N-16 carryover to the steam side of the plant, but I read an article recently that discusses problems with Xe, Kr, and Iodine as well; these are fission products, are the authors saying that the fuel cladding is not able to contain fission product gases? Another article I read talks about activated corrosion products in the condensate and feed systems. How do the corrosion products become activated, is the condensate and feed systems in a BWR plant subject to a neutron flux? Any clarification offered will be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff Kulp Washington State University Radiation Safety Office Pullman, WA 99164-1302 (509) 335-8175 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From radbloom at comcast.net Wed Dec 7 06:14:52 2011 From: radbloom at comcast.net (radbloom at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1022511227.847100.1323260092112.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Dan, This looks like a very fun read.? Looks like it might be an excellent gift for our local town and school libraries.? Thank you for sharing and for your inspiration. Cindy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan W McCarn" To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 12:21:10 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle????????butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! Dear Ahmad & Franz: I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". ?My copies have my early artistic attempts in crayon. ?My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years old. ?I must have read those books 100 times! "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the light of current developments in physics today." They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to read! Dan ii P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? ?Did you get a lump of coal? -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM ?J. Marshall Reber wrote: "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that many to tip the voting results one way or another. We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the science for experts only. Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as most of the work done by the ?nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. Ahmad Al-Ani Radiation Physicist > >On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: > >> j, Marshall Reber, >> >> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. > >Franz, indeed that is so. ?My impression is that much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters. ?Much of this is due to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. ?My hope is that scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. > >J. Marshall Reber, ScD >165 Berkeley St. >Methuen MA 01844 > >Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From victors at sviva.gov.il Wed Dec 7 10:15:45 2011 From: victors at sviva.gov.il (=?windows-1255?B?5en36OX4IPno6enw+A==?=) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:15:45 +0200 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Good article on Co-60 source found in Genoa 7/20/10 In-Reply-To: <0000000000cb513c@QBMailSec>A(QBMailSec) Message-ID: <0000000000cb7f80@QBMailSec> (QBMailSec) ??? ????, ????. ??? ????? ?????? RADSAFE : http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?page=1 ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??????. ??? ???, ?????? ?"? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ?????? ??' ???? ????? 5 ?.?. 34033 ??????? 95464 ????? ???? 0506-233107 ?? 02-6495875 ??? 02-6495870 victors at sviva.gov.il -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Cowie, Michael I Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:42 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Good article on Co-60 source found in Genoa 7/20/10 I think the source actually came from the UAE, not Saudi Arabia, although it seems to have been transported through Saudi. Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 6, 2011, at 9:31 PM, "Clayton J Bradt" wrote: > http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?page=1 > > Is there more info out there on this, like how many panoramic irradiators > there are in Saudi Arabia? With the limited number of manufacturers of > these sources this one shouldn't be too hard to trace. > > Clayton J. Bradt > Principal Radiophysicist > NYS Dept. of Health > Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A > Empire State Plaza > Albany, NY 12201-0509 > > 518-474-1993 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Wed Dec 7 10:59:38 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:59:38 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtlebutsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: References: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B17@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Sadly, a fair portion of our problem stems from people who actually knew better; the science fiction authors of the 1950s and 60s. Asimov, Heinlein, Anderson, Bradbury, and Norton all wrote stories about post-apocalypse, radiation-drenched worlds filled with mutants. And those are the good ones; the people writing the "B" movies and pulp magazines were even worse. The only top-tier SF author I can think of who didn't go for the cheap radiation storyline was Clarke. Sadly, it seems like many people get tired halfway through reading the phrase "Science Fiction", and the "fiction" part doesn't register. And as exciting stories about heroes with psychic powers battling deformed, bloodthirsty mutants are more interesting that dry reports saying radiation exposure at Hiroshima an Nagasaki may have caused a lower birth-weight, it's easy to see where a lot of people got their information from. Extrapolating to modern fiction, it seems likely within the near future Emergency Response Plans for a variety of facilities will have to include sections on dealing with vampire attacks and sudden outbreaks of zombies. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:21 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtlebutsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! Dear Ahmad & Franz: I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". My copies have my early artistic attempts in crayon. My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years old. I must have read those books 100 times! "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the light of current developments in physics today." They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to read! Dan ii P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? Did you get a lump of coal? -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that many to tip the voting results one way or another. We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the science for experts only. Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. Ahmad Al-Ani Radiation Physicist > >On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: > >> j, Marshall Reber, >> >> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for scientific professionals. > >Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. > >J. Marshall Reber, ScD >165 Berkeley St. >Methuen MA 01844 > >Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From tdc at xrayted.com Wed Dec 7 11:09:15 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:09:15 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: References: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EDF9DBB.7000709@xrayted.com> My inspiration to science was Mr. Wizard. That format can be very educational and inspirational to kids. On 12/6/2011 9:21 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: > Dear Ahmad& Franz: > > I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and > "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". My copies have my early artistic attempts > in crayon. My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years > old. I must have read those books 100 times! > > "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since > his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose > fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. > George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central > concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum > theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr > Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the > light of current developments in physics today." > > They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! > > http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf > > I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to > read! > > Dan ii > > P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? Did you get a lump > of coal? > > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle > butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: > > "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated > because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" > > Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting > these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that > many to tip the voting results one way or another. > > We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the > facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a > public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the > science for experts only. > > Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as > most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear > projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. > > > Ahmad Al-Ani > Radiation Physicist > >> On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: >> >>> j, Marshall Reber, >>> >>> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for > scientific professionals. >> Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear > power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of > scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due > to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose > experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that > scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within > lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. >> J. Marshall Reber, ScD >> 165 Berkeley St. >> Methuen MA 01844 >> >> Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >> Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Wed Dec 7 12:51:53 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:51:53 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B19@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> An interesting story. Personally, I think it took them far too long to resolve the issue. I realize they needed to be concerned about the possibility of a bomb inside the container, but taking most of a year to come up with a plan didn't decrease that risk. Once the isotope was determined to be Co60 the solution (breach the container and remove the contents until you find the source) should have been pretty obvious. (Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the technical people advocated that from the beginning, but the "leadership" couldn't be persuaded to OK anything until delaying any longer was more politically risky than acting was technically risky). -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:15 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 From: Fred Date: Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:05 AM Subject: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargo container 307703 To: srp-uk at yahoogroups.com from Wired magazine "Enzo Montagna pulled his Fiat into Voltri Terminal Europa, a sprawling port on the western edge of Genoa, flashed his ID at the guard and parked in a small lot near the low-slung customs office. In Italy, all cargo containers carrying scrap metal get checked by hand for radiation, before they're allowed off the docks. At Voltri, this job falls to Montagna, a 49-year-old independent consultant certified by the Italian government. By the time he arrived, longshoremen had gathered eleven six-metre-long, 2.5-metre-wide containers, relying on manifests to determine which ones needed to be scanned. The boxes were lined up near the terminal's entrance. Montagna grabbed his radiation monitor -- a Ludlum Model 3 about the size of a toaster. He plugged in a sensor wand and set the device down 18 metres away from the containers. The Model 3 emits a beep every time it detects a radioactive particle; Montagna turned it on, and the meter's needle swung past the maximum reading of 500,000 counts per minute. Instead of its usual staccato chirps, the machine was whining continuously and frantically. That didn't worry Montagna; the port's humid air sometimes corroded the connections. He turned the detector off, replaced the cable between the wand and the box with a spare, and turned the device back on. It started wailing again. Montagna was being bathed in radiation. One of the containers in front of him held a lethal secret, but was that secret merely a slow-motion radioactive industrial accident, or a bomb -- one that could destroy the 24 kilometre waterfront? Montagna ran to his car to get a less sensitive detector. He didn't think about protection; at those levels, he would have needed lead armour 12cm thick to stand within a metre of the source for long." continues at http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?pag e=1 http://tinyurl.com/7ybbcbr _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From michael.cowie at aramco.com Wed Dec 7 13:57:42 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 19:57:42 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B19@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: , <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B19@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <3A195CA7-CC01-44C6-9149-A1F34282FEE7@aramco.com> I would imagine they were trying to send it back or elsewhere rather than "do" anything about it, Italy does seem to have "checks" done at least. Recall many years ago (must be at least 15years) a consignment of old oilfield tubulars on their way to be used as props in Venice, was found to have enhanced levels of gamma radiation (NORM). They were returned to sender, at some considerable cost. Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 7, 2011, at 9:53 PM, "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" wrote: > An interesting story. Personally, I think it took them far too long to > resolve the issue. I realize they needed to be concerned about the > possibility of a bomb inside the container, but taking most of a year to > come up with a plan didn't decrease that risk. Once the isotope was > determined to be Co60 the solution (breach the container and remove the > contents until you find the source) should have been pretty obvious. > (Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the technical people advocated > that from the beginning, but the "leadership" couldn't be persuaded to > OK anything until delaying any longer was more politically risky than > acting was technically risky). > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:15 AM > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of > cargocontainer 307703 > > From: Fred > Date: Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:05 AM > Subject: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargo container 307703 > To: srp-uk at yahoogroups.com > > from Wired magazine > > "Enzo Montagna pulled his Fiat into Voltri Terminal Europa, a > sprawling port on the western edge of Genoa, flashed his ID at the > guard and parked in a small lot near the low-slung customs office. > > In Italy, all cargo containers carrying scrap metal get checked by > hand for radiation, before they're allowed off the docks. At Voltri, > this job falls to Montagna, a 49-year-old independent consultant > certified by the Italian government. By the time he arrived, > longshoremen had gathered eleven six-metre-long, 2.5-metre-wide > containers, relying on manifests to determine which ones needed to be > scanned. The boxes were lined up near the terminal's entrance. > > Montagna grabbed his radiation monitor -- a Ludlum Model 3 about the > size of a toaster. He plugged in a sensor wand and set the device down > 18 metres away from the containers. The Model 3 emits a beep every > time it detects a radioactive particle; Montagna turned it on, and the > meter's needle swung past the maximum reading of 500,000 counts per > minute. Instead of its usual staccato chirps, the machine was whining > continuously and frantically. That didn't worry Montagna; the port's > humid air sometimes corroded the connections. He turned the detector > off, replaced the cable between the wand and the box with a spare, and > turned the device back on. It started wailing again. Montagna was > being bathed in radiation. > > One of the containers in front of him held a lethal secret, but was > that secret merely a slow-motion radioactive industrial accident, or a > bomb -- one that could destroy the 24 kilometre waterfront? Montagna > ran to his car to get a less sensitive detector. He didn't think about > protection; at those levels, he would have needed lead armour 12cm > thick to stand within a metre of the source for long." > > continues at > http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?pag > e=1 > > http://tinyurl.com/7ybbcbr > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From dlawrencenewyork at aol.com Wed Dec 7 14:43:30 2011 From: dlawrencenewyork at aol.com (David's AOL) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: <4EDF9DBB.7000709@xrayted.com> References: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EDF9DBB.7000709@xrayted.com> Message-ID: <4A905C0B-B42A-4DBA-BEDA-88A9E729C55F@aol.com> And who can forget the frank Capra classics "Hemo the Magnificent" and "Unchained Goddess"! David Lawrence On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Ted de Castro wrote: > My inspiration to science was Mr. Wizard. That format can be very educational and inspirational to kids. > > On 12/6/2011 9:21 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: >> Dear Ahmad& Franz: >> >> I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and >> "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". My copies have my early artistic attempts >> in crayon. My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years >> old. I must have read those books 100 times! >> >> "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since >> his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose >> fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. >> George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central >> concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum >> theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr >> Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the >> light of current developments in physics today." >> >> They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! >> >> http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf >> >> I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to >> read! >> >> Dan ii >> >> P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? Did you get a lump >> of coal? >> >> -- >> Dan W McCarn, Geologist >> 108 Sherwood Blvd >> Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 >> +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) >> +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) >> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani >> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 >> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle >> butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: >> >> "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated >> because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" >> >> Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting >> these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that >> many to tip the voting results one way or another. >> >> We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the >> facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a >> public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the >> science for experts only. >> >> Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as >> most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear >> projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. >> >> >> Ahmad Al-Ani >> Radiation Physicist >> >>> On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> j, Marshall Reber, >>>> >>>> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for >> scientific professionals. >>> Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear >> power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of >> scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due >> to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose >> experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that >> scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within >> lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. >>> J. Marshall Reber, ScD >>> 165 Berkeley St. >>> Methuen MA 01844 >>> >>> Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >>> Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From kulpjb at wsu.edu Wed Dec 7 14:55:14 2011 From: kulpjb at wsu.edu (Kulp, Jeffrey B) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 20:55:14 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] BWR radiation safety concerns Message-ID: <2C4CCCAD7A852F4BB10809598B5AF16D03EB9C@EXMB-07.ad.wsu.edu> Hello Radsafers, I wanted to thank all of you who responded to my email earlier this week regarding BWR radiation safety. Your comments and guidance are truly appreciated. Jeff Kulp Washington State University Radiation Safety Office Pullman, WA 99164-1302 (509) 335-8175 From tdc at xrayted.com Wed Dec 7 15:05:59 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:05:59 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! In-Reply-To: <4A905C0B-B42A-4DBA-BEDA-88A9E729C55F@aol.com> References: <1323231496.70473.yint-ygo-j2me@web111714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EDF9DBB.7000709@xrayted.com> <4A905C0B-B42A-4DBA-BEDA-88A9E729C55F@aol.com> Message-ID: <4EDFD537.5010004@xrayted.com> Don't forget "Our Mr. Sun"! When I saw those were actually available a couple of years ago I jumped at the chance to get them! On 12/7/2011 12:43 PM, David's AOL wrote: > And who can forget the frank Capra classics "Hemo the Magnificent" and "Unchained Goddess"! > > David Lawrence > > > > On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Ted de Castro wrote: > >> My inspiration to science was Mr. Wizard. That format can be very educational and inspirational to kids. >> >> On 12/6/2011 9:21 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: >>> Dear Ahmad& Franz: >>> >>> I grew-up reading George Gamow's brilliant "Mr. Tompkins in Wonderland" and >>> "Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom". My copies have my early artistic attempts >>> in crayon. My dad placed them on the bedside table when I was 6 or 7 years >>> old. I must have read those books 100 times! >>> >>> "Mr Tompkins has become known and loved by many thousands of readers (since >>> his first appearance over seventy years ago) as the bank clerk whose >>> fantastic dreams and adventures lead him into a world inside the atom. >>> George Gamow's classic provides a delightful explanation of the central >>> concepts in modern physics, from atomic structure to relativity, and quantum >>> theory to fusion and fission. Roger Penrose's new foreword introduces Mr >>> Tompkins to a new generation of readers, and reviews his adventures in the >>> light of current developments in physics today." >>> >>> They make dandy Winter Solstice presents! >>> >>> http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tompkins.pdf >>> >>> I gave my daughters copies of these great books when they were old enough to >>> read! >>> >>> Dan ii >>> >>> P.S. Franz - Did the Krampus come to Vienna yesterday? Did you get a lump >>> of coal? >>> >>> -- >>> Dan W McCarn, Geologist >>> 108 Sherwood Blvd >>> Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 >>> +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) >>> +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) >>> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ahmad Al-Ani >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 21:18 >>> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu; franz.schoenhofer at chello.at >>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Hiroshima Syndrome exposed as subtle >>> butsignificantwidespread psychosis predicated on fictions! >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 12:26 AM J. Marshall Reber wrote: >>> >>> "Much of the anti nuclear power sentiments are successfully promulgated >>> because of the lack of scientific input in the education of many youngsters" >>> >>> Eloquently said indeed, particularly when the issue is put for public voting >>> these days. A vote is a vote, and we, the "Know It All" people, are not that >>> many to tip the voting results one way or another. >>> >>> We, again the "Know it All'ers", have failed miserably in simplifying the >>> facts about anything radiation and nuclear, so that the topic becomes a >>> public knowledge, enough to gain an educated vote, rather than keeping the >>> science for experts only. >>> >>> Unfortunately, we inherited a bad habit of keeping things for ourselves, as >>> most of the work done by the nuclear pioneers was in clandestine nuclear >>> projects, Manhattan to name the "worst" example. >>> >>> >>> Ahmad Al-Ani >>> Radiation Physicist >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:17 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> j, Marshall Reber, >>>>> >>>>> I would have believed that RADSAFE is a scientific platform for >>> scientific professionals. >>>> Franz, indeed that is so. My impression is that much of the anti nuclear >>> power sentiments are successfully promulgated because of the lack of >>> scientific input in the education of many youngsters. Much of this is due >>> to misdirected governmental influences as discussed by Leslie Corrice, whose >>> experiences as he discusses are primarily in the U.S. My hope is that >>> scientific professionals would be more vocal, not within Radsafe, but within >>> lay persons' venues, after contemplating Leslie Corrice's presentations. >>>> J. Marshall Reber, ScD >>>> 165 Berkeley St. >>>> Methuen MA 01844 >>>> >>>> Tel/Fax: 978-683-6540 >>>> Alternate Email: reber at alum.mit.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>>> >>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >>> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >>> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >>> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 7 16:31:19 2011 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 22:31:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B19@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B19@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <1323297079.20289.YahooMailNeo@web27107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> As I understood it when the story was first released earlier this year, the delay was caused by discussions on who would pay for the recovery, not how to recover the source. Robert Atkinson MRAeS ________________________________ From: "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011, 18:51 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 An interesting story.? Personally, I think it took them far too long to resolve the issue.? I realize they needed to be concerned about the possibility of a bomb inside the container, but taking most of a year to come up with a plan didn't decrease that risk.? Once the isotope was determined to be Co60 the solution (breach the container and remove the contents until you find the source) should have been pretty obvious. (Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the technical people advocated that from the beginning, but the "leadership" couldn't be persuaded to OK anything until delaying any longer was more politically risky than acting was technically risky). -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:15 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargocontainer 307703 From: Fred Date: Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:05 AM Subject: [srp] Mystery box: The curious case of cargo container 307703 To: srp-uk at yahoogroups.com from Wired magazine "Enzo Montagna pulled his Fiat into Voltri Terminal Europa, a sprawling port on the western edge of Genoa, flashed his ID at the guard and parked in a small lot near the low-slung customs office. In Italy, all cargo containers carrying scrap metal get checked by hand for radiation, before they're allowed off the docks. At Voltri, this job falls to Montagna, a 49-year-old independent consultant certified by the Italian government. By the time he arrived, longshoremen had gathered eleven six-metre-long, 2.5-metre-wide containers, relying on manifests to determine which ones needed to be scanned. The boxes were lined up near the terminal's entrance. Montagna grabbed his radiation monitor -- a Ludlum Model 3 about the size of a toaster. He plugged in a sensor wand and set the device down 18 metres away from the containers. The Model 3 emits a beep every time it detects a radioactive particle; Montagna turned it on, and the meter's needle swung past the maximum reading of 500,000 counts per minute. Instead of its usual staccato chirps, the machine was whining continuously and frantically. That didn't worry Montagna; the port's humid air sometimes corroded the connections. He turned the detector off, replaced the cable between the wand and the box with a spare, and turned the device back on. It started wailing again. Montagna was being bathed in radiation. One of the containers in front of him held a lethal secret, but was that secret merely a slow-motion radioactive industrial accident, or a bomb -- one that could destroy the 24 kilometre waterfront? Montagna ran to his car to get a less sensitive detector. He didn't think about protection; at those levels, he would have needed lead armour 12cm thick to stand within a metre of the source for long." continues at http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/12/features/mystery-box?pag e=1 http://tinyurl.com/7ybbcbr _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 05:34:25 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 03:34:25 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) Message-ID: Here is yet another example of how Busby misleads the public - I was looking for old message about bananas to send to AP reporter in Japan who put out the report on Cs-137 in baby formula after she asked me "bananas from where?" and found this one and started to read the comments and lo and behold - Busby had to attack U-238.? I do wonder who pay him to continue to push an issue that should have died long ago.? Doug Weir of the ICBUW says that it is in no way influenced by Busby and thus had no need of knowing about his Japan scam. midway through the comments at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15288975 "Bananas are radioactive because they contain some Potassium-40. So do many things. But the reason this idea is absurd is that different radioisotopes exist which have different biological affinities. Potassium is uniformly distributed in the body and so can be compared with external radiation. Not so substances like Strontium-90 and Uranium 238 or Plutonium 239 which have high affinity to DNAS and so can deliver their energy where it is effective is causing mutation. Almost all of the potassium 40 radiation is wasted.:" Prof Chris Busby, Aberystwyth Doesn't say Visiting Assistant Prof, but Prof to make it clear to the public that this person is really an expert. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark Ramsay Date: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Except we know that k / K-40 regulation in the body is not as implied ;) Still helpful perhaps for some! Mark -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dimiter Popoff Sent: 13 October 2011 16:40 The author has made an amusing "banana equivalent" table :-) . http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15288975 Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/ From jjc105 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 8 20:23:49 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 18:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1323397429.32262.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you want a really good source of radioactivity [to attain optimal dose levels] try Brazil Nuts! ________________________________ From: Roger Helbig To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Sent: Thu, December 8, 2011 3:34:25 AM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) Here is yet another example of how Busby misleads the public - I was looking for old message about bananas to send to AP reporter in Japan who put out the report on Cs-137 in baby formula after she asked me "bananas from where?" and found this one and started to read the comments and lo and behold - Busby had to attack U-238. I do wonder who pay him to continue to push an issue that should have died long ago. Doug Weir of the ICBUW says that it is in no way influenced by Busby and thus had no need of knowing about his Japan scam. midway through the comments at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15288975 "Bananas are radioactive because they contain some Potassium-40. So do many things. But the reason this idea is absurd is that different radioisotopes exist which have different biological affinities. Potassium is uniformly distributed in the body and so can be compared with external radiation. Not so substances like Strontium-90 and Uranium 238 or Plutonium 239 which have high affinity to DNAS and so can deliver their energy where it is effective is causing mutation. Almost all of the potassium 40 radiation is wasted.:" Prof Chris Busby, Aberystwyth Doesn't say Visiting Assistant Prof, but Prof to make it clear to the public that this person is really an expert. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark Ramsay Date: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Except we know that k / K-40 regulation in the body is not as implied ;) Still helpful perhaps for some! Mark -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dimiter Popoff Sent: 13 October 2011 16:40 The author has made an amusing "banana equivalent" table :-) . http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15288975 Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Thu Dec 8 21:14:04 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:14:04 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) In-Reply-To: <1323397429.32262.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1323397429.32262.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201112090314.pB93E0kc006216@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 8 I thought the nuts were in Wales, not Brazil. Steven Dapra At 07:23 PM 12/8/2011, you wrote: >If you want a really good source of radioactivity [to attain optimal dose >levels] try Brazil Nuts! > >________________________________ >From: Roger Helbig >To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >Sent: Thu, December 8, 2011 3:34:25 AM >Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about >radiation (BBCarticle) > >Here is yet another example of how Busby misleads the public - I was >looking for old message about bananas to send to AP reporter in Japan >who put out the report on Cs-137 in baby formula after she asked me >"bananas from where?" and found this one and started to read the >comments and lo and behold - Busby had to attack U-238. I do wonder >who pay him to continue to push an issue that should have died long >ago. Doug Weir of the ICBUW says that it is in no way influenced by >Busby and thus had no need of knowing about his Japan scam. > >midway through the comments at >http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15288975 > >"Bananas are radioactive because they contain some Potassium-40. So do >many things. But the reason this idea is absurd is that different >radioisotopes exist which have different biological affinities. >Potassium is uniformly distributed in the body and so can be compared >with external radiation. Not so substances like Strontium-90 and >Uranium 238 or Plutonium 239 which have high affinity to DNAS and so >can deliver their energy where it is effective is causing mutation. >Almost all of the potassium 40 radiation is wasted.:" > >Prof Chris Busby, Aberystwyth > >Doesn't say Visiting Assistant Prof, but Prof to make it clear to the >public that this person is really an expert. [edit] From maurysis at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 8 23:13:17 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 23:13:17 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) In-Reply-To: <201112090314.pB93E0kc006216@ame7.swcp.com> References: <1323397429.32262.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112090314.pB93E0kc006216@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: <4EE198ED.5060007@peoplepc.com> It's ok, we have them all over .... Cheers, Maury&Dog ==================================== On 12/8/2011 9:14 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 8 > > I thought the nuts were in Wales, not Brazil. > > Steven Dapra > > > > At 07:23 PM 12/8/2011, you wrote: >> If you want a really good source of radioactivity [to attain optimal >> dose >> levels] try Brazil Nuts! >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Roger Helbig >> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> Sent: Thu, December 8, 2011 3:34:25 AM >> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about >> radiation (BBCarticle) >> >> Here is yet another example of how Busby misleads the public - I was >> looking for old message about bananas to send to AP reporter in Japan >> who put out the report on Cs-137 in baby formula after she asked me >> "bananas from where?" and found this one and started to read the > --------------------snipped---------------------- From slgawarecki at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 20:28:21 2011 From: slgawarecki at gmail.com (S L Gawarecki) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:28:21 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Upcoming job announcement Message-ID: I saw this announcement (below) and thought it would be worthwhile to post it to RadSafe. I hope it helps someone. --Susan Gawarecki (who is looking for a new opportunity myself). Upcoming Job Announcement Posted by: "nielsen.erik at epamail.epa.gov" nielsen.erik at epamail.epa.gov eriknielsen57 Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:04 pm (PST) DIRECTOR, NATIONAL AIR AND RADIATION ENVIRONMENTAL LABORATORY/GS-15 U.S. EPA is seeking a highly skilled and motivated individual to lead one of its key air and radiation laboratories. The announcement for the position of Director of the National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory (NAREL) within EPA's Office of Radiation and Indoor Air will be released in January 2012 on USAJobs. The NAREL director manages a highly technical and experienced group of scientists and engineers and a state-of-the-art laboratory facility in Montgomery, Ala. The diverse work of the laboratory includes radioanalysis, radiochemistry, hazardous waste analysis and air monitoring technical support. The director oversees nationwide activities that include: ? Performing environmental radiation studies and near real-time radiation monitoring ? Conducting field monitoring and laboratory analyses for radiological emergencies and cleanup activities ? Providing radiological technical support to EPA, other federal agencies and states. Interested applicants should have strong technical experience in radiation monitoring and analysis as well as strong management experience. EPA consistently ranks as one of the top federal agencies in which to work, offering solid benefits and a flexible work environment. Look for this announcement in early January 2012. All applications must be submitted through USAJobs to be considered. Please DO NOT contact me about this position. Everything will be in the official announcement. Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 From Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Thu Dec 8 15:00:30 2011 From: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov (Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:00:30 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Upcoming Job Announcement Message-ID: DIRECTOR, NATIONAL AIR AND RADIATION ENVIRONMENTAL LABORATORY/GS-15 U.S. EPA is seeking a highly skilled and motivated individual to lead one of its key air and radiation laboratories. The announcement for the position of Director of the National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory (NAREL) within EPA's Office of Radiation and Indoor Air will be released in January 2012 on USAJobs. The NAREL director manages a highly technical and experienced group of scientists and engineers and a state-of-the-art laboratory facility in Montgomery, Ala. The diverse work of the laboratory includes radioanalysis, radiochemistry, hazardous waste analysis and air monitoring technical support. The director oversees nationwide activities that include: ? Performing environmental radiation studies and near real-time radiation monitoring ? Conducting field monitoring and laboratory analyses for radiological emergencies and cleanup activities ? Providing radiological technical support to EPA, other federal agencies and states. Interested applicants should have strong technical experience in radiation monitoring and analysis as well as strong management experience. EPA consistently ranks as one of the top federal agencies in which to work, offering solid benefits and a flexible work environment. Look for this announcement in early January 2012. All applications must be submitted through USAJobs to be considered. Please DO NOT contact me about this position. Everything will be in the official announcement. Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 "Those who do not read are no better off than those who cannot" From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Sat Dec 10 15:39:24 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:39:24 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) References: <1323397429.32262.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com><201112090314.pB93E0kc006216@ame7.swcp.com> <4EE198ED.5060007@peoplepc.com> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC73@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Mr Maury, The Potassium 40 argument is also misleading since the potassium content of the body is homeostatically regulated and so however many bananas you eat (or in the cases or your friends, whatever the level of bananas you are)the K levels are always the same. And it is Professor, not Assistant Professor. We dont have assistant professors in the UK. love Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Maury Sent: Fri 09/12/2011 05:13 To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu; Steven Dapra Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about radiation (BBCarticle) It's ok, we have them all over .... Cheers, Maury&Dog ==================================== On 12/8/2011 9:14 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 8 > > I thought the nuts were in Wales, not Brazil. > > Steven Dapra > > > > At 07:23 PM 12/8/2011, you wrote: >> If you want a really good source of radioactivity [to attain optimal >> dose >> levels] try Brazil Nuts! >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Roger Helbig >> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> Sent: Thu, December 8, 2011 3:34:25 AM >> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Busby Take on Go Figure: What bananas tell us about >> radiation (BBCarticle) >> >> Here is yet another example of how Busby misleads the public - I was >> looking for old message about bananas to send to AP reporter in Japan >> who put out the report on Cs-137 in baby formula after she asked me >> "bananas from where?" and found this one and started to read the > --------------------snipped---------------------- _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From gstanford at aya.yale.edu Sat Dec 10 16:27:43 2011 From: gstanford at aya.yale.edu (George Stanford) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:27:43 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Plentiful Energy Message-ID: <20111210222743.A249D4B01A63@agni.phys.iit.edu> FYI: There's a book just out on the Integral Fast Reactor, written for non-specialists by the two people who know the most about the topic -- Charles Till and Yoon Chang. It's being sold at , and should be a good resource for those who want to be up to date on nuclear energy's potential to make a green contribution to global energy security. -- George (I'm sending this to several lists, so apologies to those who get it more than once.) From jdaitken at sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com Sat Dec 10 17:38:08 2011 From: jdaitken at sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com (Doug Aitken) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:38:08 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Trolls Message-ID: <000301ccb794$c5fae9e0$51f0bda0$@sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com> Just a thought: Even a negative comment gives fodder to an egoist. Trolls who are ignored go on to greener pastures...... Doug Aitken QHSE Advisor, Schlumberger D&M Operations Support Cell Phone: 713-562-8585 (alternate e-mail: doug.aitken at slb.com ) Mail: c/o Therese Wigzell, Schlumberger, Drilling & Measurements HQ, 300 Schlumberger Drive, MD15, Sugar Land, Texas 77478 From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 11 02:36:37 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:36:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Why did a Scottish wind turbine explode in high winds? Message-ID: <1323592597.53521.YahooMailRC@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/12/why-did-a-wind-turbine-self-co.html Why did a Scottish wind turbine explode in high winds??Roy Herren From jsalsman at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 14:12:32 2011 From: jsalsman at gmail.com (James Salsman) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:12:32 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform Message-ID: I've been following the NRC difficulties, e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/10/us-usa-energy-nuclear-idUSTRE7B903N20111210 with some interest. While this probably has something to do with the fact that wind power is selling for a fifth the wholesale cost of nuclear (less if decommissioning and waste storage costs are included) I think professional education of safety inspectors might have something to do with it. So I have a proposal for reform, as follows: 1. Make sure Health Physics Society members know what genotoxins are. 2. There is no number 2. I hope it works out. Sincerely, James Salsman From SAFarber at optonline.net Mon Dec 12 01:35:50 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:35:50 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Another British article trashing Bruce Busby claims and actions Message-ID: <000001ccb8a0$abfd3cc0$03f7b640$@net> A publication in Britain called "Today" published an article on Dec. 10th about efforts by anti-nuclear activists to subvert the supposed debate over energy options. See: http://www.todayonline.com/World/EDC111210-0000014/A-nuclear-solution-ticks- all-our-boxes The above article link discusses a number of issues concerning anti-nuclear power activists including what the author writes are baseless statements by Dr. Bruce Busby and Dr. Helen Caldicott, who has made a career for over 30 years presenting nonsensically unscientific claims about radiation issues. Related to Radsafe, it is important to remember that Busby has completely refused to answer any questions asked of him which would provide a shred of evidence his actions regarding "Busby Laboratories" and the "Dr. Christopher Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima" are not fraudulent. Accordingly, nothing he writes to RadSafe should be discussed until he responds credibly to issues of possible fraud related to the entities to which he has so prominently attached his name and solicited private donations. Quoting from the above link just published in the British publication "Today": "A fortnight ago, the Guardian examined the work of a Dr Chris Busby. We found that he has been promoting anti-radiation pills and tests to the people of Japan that scientists have described as useless and baseless. We also revealed that people were being asked to send donations, ostensibly to help the children of Fukushima, to Dr Busby's business account in Wales. We found that scientists at the National Health Service had examined his claims to have detected a leukaemia cluster in north Wales and discovered that they arose from a series of shocking statistical mistakes. Worse still, the scientists say, "the dataset has been systematically trawled". Yet Dr Busby, until our report was published, advised the Green party on radiation. His "findings" are widely used by anti-nuclear activists. Last week in The New York Times, the anti-nuclear campaigner, Dr Helen Caldicott, repeated a claim which already has been comprehensively discredited: That "close to 1 million people have died of causes linked to the Chernobyl disaster". The "study" on which it is based added up the excess deaths from a vast range of conditions, many of which have no known connection to radiation, in the countries affected by Chernobyl - and attributed them to the accident. Among these conditions was cirrhosis of the liver. Could it have any other possible cause in eastern Europe? Earlier this year, when I asked Dr Caldicott to provide scientific sources for the main claims she was making, she was unable to do so. None of this has stopped her from repeating them, or has prevented greens from spreading them. Anti-nuclear campaigners have generated as much mumbo-jumbo as creationists, anti-vaccine scaremongers, homeopaths and climate change deniers. In all cases, the scientific process has been thrown into reverse: People have begun with their conclusions, then frantically sought evidence to support them." Stewart Farber, MS Public Health Bridgeport, CT 06606 email: SAFarber at optonline.net 203-441-8433 From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Mon Dec 12 10:02:52 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:02:52 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Trolls In-Reply-To: <000301ccb794$c5fae9e0$51f0bda0$@sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com> Message-ID: <20111212170254.C9ZBB.13952.root@viefep21.chello.at> Doug, You know that I generally appreciate your comments, but this time I have to respectfully disagree. This "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. etc." is without doubt a kind of troll on RADSAFE. But we should distinguish between his role on RADSAFE and in the international communications. On the other side he is an agitator not only against nuclear power, but everything nuclear and radioactive. I oppose the use of DU - but I as well oppose the use of tungsten or whatever is the alternative, because I oppose those wars. Those wars do not become more despisable because DU is used! His claims are beyond any doubt ridiculous and only serve for his ego to be interviewed in newspapers and on TV. And of course they serve his pocket. His claims are an offence to anybody really working hard in the field of radiation protection, not to talk about international organisations monitoring carefully. We should not allow somebody like this character to ridicule and downplay worldwide acknowledged scientists - this happens all to much in recent times. Since it has been clearly stated that journalists are lurking on RADSAFE (I even received sometimes requests for information) we should continue to clearly refute this "troll", liar and fraudant. Best regards, Franz ---- Doug Aitken schrieb: > Just a thought: > Even a negative comment gives fodder to an egoist. > Trolls who are ignored go on to greener pastures...... > > Doug Aitken > QHSE Advisor, Schlumberger D&M Operations Support > Cell Phone: 713-562-8585 > (alternate e-mail: doug.aitken at slb.com ) > Mail: c/o Therese Wigzell, > Schlumberger, > Drilling & Measurements HQ, > 300 Schlumberger Drive, MD15, > Sugar Land, Texas 77478 > > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 12 11:25:46 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:25:46 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported your position on something unrelated. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of James Salsman Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:13 PM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform I've been following the NRC difficulties, e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/10/us-usa-energy-nuclear-idUSTRE7 B903N20111210 with some interest. While this probably has something to do with the fact that wind power is selling for a fifth the wholesale cost of nuclear (less if decommissioning and waste storage costs are included) I think professional education of safety inspectors might have something to do with it. So I have a proposal for reform, as follows: 1. Make sure Health Physics Society members know what genotoxins are. 2. There is no number 2. I hope it works out. Sincerely, James Salsman _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From tmobley.ahp at comcast.net Mon Dec 12 16:14:17 2011 From: tmobley.ahp at comcast.net (tmobley.ahp at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:14:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> link will not open ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Brennan (DOH)" To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:25:46 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported your position on something unrelated. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of James Salsman Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:13 PM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform I've been following the NRC difficulties, e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/10/us-usa-energy-nuclear-idUSTRE7 B903N20111210 with some interest. ?While this probably has something to do with the fact that wind power is selling for a fifth the wholesale cost of nuclear (less if decommissioning and waste storage costs are included) I think professional education of safety inspectors might have something to do with it. ?So I have a proposal for reform, as follows: 1. Make sure Health Physics Society members know what genotoxins are. 2. There is no number 2. I hope it works out. Sincerely, James Salsman _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Colette.Tremblay at ssp.ulaval.ca Tue Dec 13 08:11:11 2011 From: Colette.Tremblay at ssp.ulaval.ca (Colette Tremblay) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:11:11 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: It does not open because it is split between two lines in the message. Instead of clicking, just copy both lines into your browser's address window. Colette Colette Tremblay, sp?cialiste en radioprotection ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Service de s?curit? et de pr?vention 2325, rue de la Vie-?tudiante, local 1533 Pavillon Ernest-Lemieux ? Universit? Laval Qu?bec (Qu?bec)? G1V 0B1 418?656-2131, poste 2893 -----Message d'origine----- De?: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] De la part de tmobley.ahp at comcast.net Envoy??: 12 d?cembre 2011 17:14 ??: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Objet?: Re: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform link will not open ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Brennan (DOH)" To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:25:46 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported your position on something unrelated. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of James Salsman Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:13 PM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform I've been following the NRC difficulties, e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/10/us-usa-energy-nuclear-idUSTRE7 B903N20111210 with some interest. ?While this probably has something to do with the fact that wind power is selling for a fifth the wholesale cost of nuclear (less if decommissioning and waste storage costs are included) I think professional education of safety inspectors might have something to do with it. ?So I have a proposal for reform, as follows: 1. Make sure Health Physics Society members know what genotoxins are. 2. There is no number 2. I hope it works out. Sincerely, James Salsman _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From jsalsman at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 14:42:32 2011 From: jsalsman at gmail.com (James Salsman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:42:32 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform Message-ID: Mike Brennan wrote: > It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported > your position on something unrelated. Yes I should have mentioned: http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-September/034035.html and: http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-October/034522.html regarding whether the Health Physics Society and NRC leadership may have been so negligent in exercising a reasonable standard of care over their health and safety responsibilities as to be considered grossly negligent. Thank you for pointing that out. Sincerely, James Salsman From Daniel.Hoffman at covidien.com Tue Dec 13 16:24:16 2011 From: Daniel.Hoffman at covidien.com (Hoffman, Daniel E) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:24:16 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] HP Technician Position Opening Message-ID: <50CF621BD2692747A21CE0594AD5D8F814F4EBE4@TAMANS-MB105V.thcg.net> RadSafers: Covidien is seeking HP Technician candidates for a position opening at its Mallinckrodt LLC nuclear medicine manufacturing site in the St. Louis area. The ideal candidate would have formal training and experience in performing typical Health Physics duties such as radiological surveys, radiological air sampling and analysis, radiological work oversight, response to radiological contamination events, area and process audits, etc. This will be a salary non-exempt position with an annual salary in the low to mid $40K range and a full benefit package including medical, dental, and 401k. If anyone out there knows of any qualified individuals that would have an interest please have them contact Eric Hill, HP Supervisor at 314-654-7589 or me. Thanks and Happy Holidays. Dan Hoffman Daniel E. Hoffman, CHP, CSP Radiation Safety Officer Covidien 2703 Wagner Place Maryland Heights, MO 63043 314-654-7906 (office) 314-625-1881 (cell) From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 17:38:01 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:38:01 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? Brent Rogers Sydney Australia Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 14/12/2011, at 1:11, Colette Tremblay wrote: > It does not open because it is split between two lines in the message. Instead of clicking, just copy both lines into your browser's address window. > > Colette > > Colette Tremblay, > sp?cialiste en radioprotection > Service de s?curit? et de pr?vention > 2325, rue de la Vie-?tudiante, local 1533 > Pavillon Ernest-Lemieux ? Universit? Laval > Qu?bec (Qu?bec) G1V 0B1 > 418 656-2131, poste 2893 > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] De la part de tmobley.ahp at comcast.net > Envoy? : 12 d?cembre 2011 17:14 > ? : The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Objet : Re: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform > > link will not open > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Brennan (DOH)" > To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:25:46 PM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform > > It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported your position on something unrelated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of James Salsman > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:13 PM > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform > > I've been following the NRC difficulties, e.g. > > http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/10/us-usa-energy-nuclear-idUSTRE7 > B903N20111210 > > with some interest. While this probably has something to do with the fact that wind power is selling for a fifth the wholesale cost of nuclear (less if decommissioning and waste storage costs are included) I think professional education of safety inspectors might have something to do with it. So I have a proposal for reform, as follows: > > 1. Make sure Health Physics Society members know what genotoxins are. > > 2. There is no number 2. > > I hope it works out. > > Sincerely, > James Salsman > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 17:41:38 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:41:38 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32531512-102B-4C5F-BF61-5369E1FAE861@optusnet.com.au> James You get caught in a lie, and then you use that outting as evidence to further your cause? In the word of the famous poet Pokemon, oops, I mean Cris Carter: "Come'on Man!" Brent Rogers Sydney Australia Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 14/12/2011, at 7:42, James Salsman wrote: > Mike Brennan wrote: > >> It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported >> your position on something unrelated. > > Yes I should have mentioned: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-September/034035.html > > and: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-October/034522.html > > regarding whether the Health Physics Society and NRC leadership may > have been so negligent in exercising a reasonable standard of care > over their health and safety responsibilities as to be considered > grossly negligent. Thank you for pointing that out. > > Sincerely, > James Salsman > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Tue Dec 13 19:58:15 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:58:15 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112140158.pBE1wDdA024504@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 13 In the second link Salsman is harping on whether or not we on RADSAFE believe that uranium is a genotoxin. He wrote: "Again, do you believe that uranium is a genotoxin or not? The literature is abundantly clear on the issue, and I wonder why people on this list get so upset about the question." First, I have asked Salsman at least twice to answer his own question and so far he has refused to do so. In fact, the second time I asked him, he disappeared from RADSAFE for two or three months. Perhaps he was "upset" about the question. Second, if there is literature on this, and if it is abundantly clear, why don't you cite some of it, James? Your line of "reasoning," James, is even more obscure than usual. This thread begin with you posting a Reuters link about internal squabbling at the NRC, and you making some non-germane comments about the price of wind power. What does any of this have to do with genotoxins? Do you have a fever, James? Steven Dapra At 01:42 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >Mike Brennan wrote: > > > It's a shame you didn't read the article before deciding it supported > > your position on something unrelated. > >Yes I should have mentioned: > >http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-September/034035.html > >and: > >http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-October/034522.html > >regarding whether the Health Physics Society and NRC leadership may >have been so negligent in exercising a reasonable standard of care >over their health and safety responsibilities as to be considered >grossly negligent. Thank you for pointing that out. > >Sincerely, >James Salsman From sjd at swcp.com Tue Dec 13 20:00:05 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:00:05 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <201112140200.pBE203SO027120@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 13 Well, who appointed this Markey aide? Obama, I suppose. What did you expect? Steven Dapra At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair >of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? >Brent Rogers Sydney Australia [edit] From sjd at swcp.com Tue Dec 13 21:03:14 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:03:14 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <201112140317.pBE3Hj4o053323@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 13 A superficial biography of NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko (from Wikipedia). He was appointed a Commissioner in Jan., 2005. Obama designated him Chairman in May, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_B._Jaczko Steven Dapra At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair >of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? >Brent Rogers [edit] From jsalsman at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 22:05:31 2011 From: jsalsman at gmail.com (James Salsman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:05:31 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform Message-ID: Steven Dapra wrote: > In the second link Salsman is harping on whether or not we > on RADSAFE believe that uranium is a genotoxin. He wrote: > > "Again, do you believe that uranium is a genotoxin or not? The > literature is abundantly clear on the issue, and I wonder why people > on this list get so upset about the question." > > First, I have asked Salsman at least twice to answer his own > question and so far he has refused to do so.... There were some moderation issues, so perhaps Steven missed http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-September/034040.html citing http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/89/1/287.abstract and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19914362 What does it say about us as a society that tenured university radiation protection faculty, military officials charged with safety determinations, and apparently whatever fraction of RADSAFE that chooses to take Steven's questions seriously aren't familiar with the genotoxic properties of uranium? Is it any wonder that people have safety concerns about nuclear power? Sincerely, James Salsman From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 22:10:21 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:10:21 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <201112140317.pBE3Hj4o053323@ame7.swcp.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> <201112140317.pBE3Hj4o053323@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: So it sounds like both Bush and Obama are responsible for this. Presumably he wouldn't have been appointed Chair if he wasn't already on the Commission, but of course that' snot an absoltue. Brent Rogers Sydney Australia Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 14/12/2011, at 14:03, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 13 > > A superficial biography of NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko (from Wikipedia). He was appointed a Commissioner in Jan., 2005. Obama designated him Chairman in May, 2009. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_B._Jaczko > > Steven Dapra > > > At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >> How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? > >> Brent Rogers > > [edit] > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From SAFarber at optonline.net Tue Dec 13 23:28:44 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:28:44 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] A bit of background politics on NRC Commissioner Jaczko, Sen. Reid [D-NV], Congressman Markey [D-MA] Message-ID: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> To get a bit of background on the politics of NRC Chairman Jaczko being appointed to the NRC in 2005 as a Commissioner, and later NRC Chairman see the following article from today's Huffington Post: NRC 'Coup' Leader, Bill Magwood, Consulted For Fukushima Parent Company http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/12/nrc-coup-leader-worked-fo_n_1143895 .html or: http://tinyurl.com/7l56nzx You can't blame the Obama administration for Jaczko becoming a commissioner in 2005 since Bush approved it. But Obama did finally allow Jaczko to be named Chairman. From Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Wed Dec 14 09:00:50 2011 From: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us (Jim Hardeman) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:00:50 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <201112140200.pBE203SO027120@ame8.swcp.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> <201112140200.pBE203SO027120@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <4EE873CE.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Steven et al. -- Chairman Jaczko was appointed to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission by President Bush (43) and made Chairman by President Obama. Jim >>> Steven Dapra 12/13/2011 21:00 >>> Dec. 13 Well, who appointed this Markey aide? Obama, I suppose. What did you expect? Steven Dapra At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair >of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? >Brent Rogers Sydney Australia [edit] _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Wed Dec 14 09:10:52 2011 From: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us (Jim Hardeman) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:10:52 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership In-Reply-To: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> References: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> Message-ID: <4EE87628.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> To all -- If you're interested, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is holding a hearing RIGHT NOW (until noon Eastern) on "The Leadership of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission". All five NRC Commissioners are scheduled to be on the first panel. The hearing is being streamed at http://oversight.house.gov/ Jim Hardeman, Manager Environmental Radiation Program Environmental Protection Division Georgia Department of Natural Resources 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 Atlanta, GA 30354 (404) 362-2675 Fax: (404) 362-2653 Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us From SAFarber at optonline.net Wed Dec 14 13:52:58 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:52:58 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership In-Reply-To: <4EE87628.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> References: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> <4EE87628.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Message-ID: <003101ccba99$fb0d0980$f1271c80$@net> Hi Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the hearing feed. It was interesting to watch a live feed of NRC Chairman Jaczko flanked by 2 NRC Commissioners on either side at the witness table discussing the unanimously signed critical letter the 4 Commissioners sent to Obama's Chief of Staff soundly criticizing the NRC Chairman. As always in a hearing these days, there was the partisanship of Dems vs. Republicans in questioning the witnesses but it made for some interesting viewing. Jaczko was pretty good at dodging sharp comments from the committee members, but some were not buying it and said so in the harshest terms. Stewart Farber ================ -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Hardeman Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:11 AM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership To all -- If you're interested, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is holding a hearing RIGHT NOW (until noon Eastern) on "The Leadership of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission". All five NRC Commissioners are scheduled to be on the first panel. The hearing is being streamed at http://oversight.house.gov/ Jim Hardeman, Manager Environmental Radiation Program Environmental Protection Division Georgia Department of Natural Resources 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 Atlanta, GA 30354 (404) 362-2675 Fax: (404) 362-2653 Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From SAFarber at optonline.net Wed Dec 14 14:08:05 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:08:05 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] FW: House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership Message-ID: <000601ccba9c$177463f0$465d2bd0$@net> Article by Bloomberg.com just posted about hearing today on NRC Chairman Jaczko dispute, ending at 12:30pm: or, http://tinyurl.com/87ozgbs Provides a good summary of overall hearing. Stewart Farber =================== -----Original Message----- From: Stewart Farber [mailto:SAFarber at optonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:53 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Cc: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership Hi Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the hearing feed. It was interesting to watch a live feed of NRC Chairman Jaczko flanked by 2 NRC Commissioners on either side at the witness table discussing the unanimously signed critical letter the 4 Commissioners sent to Obama's Chief of Staff soundly criticizing the NRC Chairman. ............. From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:01:29 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan McCarn) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:01:29 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership Message-ID: Jim: I've given testimony for NRC hearings twice and worked on both WIPP & Yucca Mountain as well as IAEA projects worldwide. This kind of acrimonious discussion is both chilling and counterproductive to any nuclear safety issue. Dan ii > > Jim > >>>> Dan W McCarn 12/14/2011 13:05 >>> > Very interesting, and a little horrifying... > > Dan ii > > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Hardeman > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 08:11 > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' > Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee > hearingon NRC leadership > > To all -- > > If you're interested, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is > holding a hearing RIGHT NOW (until noon Eastern) on "The Leadership of the > Nuclear Regulatory Commission". All five NRC Commissioners are scheduled to > be on the first panel. > > The hearing is being streamed at http://oversight.house.gov/ > > > Jim Hardeman, Manager > Environmental Radiation Program > Environmental Protection Division > Georgia Department of Natural Resources > 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 > Atlanta, GA 30354 > (404) 362-2675 > Fax: (404) 362-2653 > Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 > E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > From Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us Wed Dec 14 15:46:20 2011 From: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us (Jim Hardeman) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:46:20 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committeehearing on NRC leadership Message-ID: <4EE8D2D8.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Stewart -- I was able to watch MOST of the hearing, despite our lousy Internet service at work (thank God for 4G data service on my phone). You're correct -- the questions were very partisan, but what I found perhaps to be the most telling was that the responses from the four Commissioners other than Chairman Jaczko were not ... Jim >>> Stewart Farber 12/14/2011 14:52 >>> Hi Jim, Thanks for posting the link to the hearing feed. It was interesting to watch a live feed of NRC Chairman Jaczko flanked by 2 NRC Commissioners on either side at the witness table discussing the unanimously signed critical letter the 4 Commissioners sent to Obama's Chief of Staff soundly criticizing the NRC Chairman. As always in a hearing these days, there was the partisanship of Dems vs. Republicans in questioning the witnesses but it made for some interesting viewing. Jaczko was pretty good at dodging sharp comments from the committee members, but some were not buying it and said so in the harshest terms. Stewart Farber ================ -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Hardeman Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:11 AM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: [ RadSafe ] House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on NRC leadership To all -- If you're interested, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is holding a hearing RIGHT NOW (until noon Eastern) on "The Leadership of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission". All five NRC Commissioners are scheduled to be on the first panel. The hearing is being streamed at http://oversight.house.gov/ Jim Hardeman, Manager Environmental Radiation Program Environmental Protection Division Georgia Department of Natural Resources 4220 International Parkway, Suite 100 Atlanta, GA 30354 (404) 362-2675 Fax: (404) 362-2653 Personal fax: (404) 521-4485 E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From jsalsman at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:46:44 2011 From: jsalsman at gmail.com (James Salsman) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:46:44 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC Inspector General Message-ID: Apparently the NRC Inspector General has reversed their position a couple times on whether Greg Jaczko has acted improperly, initially writing that he did not, then reversing under questioning from Republicans, and then confirming their original report. Others have noticed some issues with the NRC IG; in particular concerning the handling of actual reactor safety issues: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/12/nuclear-regulatory-commission_n_923098.html My personal interactions with the NRC IG were at first very frustrating, then quite comical, and then somewhat helpful. At least the UK and Canada are finally coming around on depleted uranium inhalation exposure studies: http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2011/11/24/opinion-safe-or-not-safe-the-doublespeak-over-depleted-uranium/ http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/12/20111205-184512.html Sincerely, James Salsman From rwhelbig at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 19:16:54 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:16:54 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Professor, Doctor a term of extreme academic respect in Europe? Message-ID: Is that true, that the term Professor, Doctor is such a term? I find that the bereted one, who seems to also infer that his doctorate is from the University of London instead of from the University of Kent (which is not mentioned in the 13 page document) is so referred to at the anti-nuclear conference that was recently held in Vilnius, Lithuania (wonder who pays for all this travel to Vilnius, to Stockholm, when his protestations to this list have been that I am poor, impoverished?). http://www.nuwinfo.se/files/NuclearPowerConferenceVilnius20111206-8program.pdf Christopher Busby, Prof. Dr (United Kingdom), Proofs of the accuracy of the Radiobiological Health Model of the European Committee on Radiation Risk: its application to Chernobyl effects in Sweden and Uranium effects in Iraq and the implications for Fukushima. and the implication of his doctorate being from the University of London in his statement at http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/routinereleases/busbyonmillstone32001.htm "I hold a First Class Honours degree in Chemistry from the University of London, and also a PhD in Chemical Physics" One might assume that a doctorate from the University of London is more prestigious than one from the University of Kent since the University of London is 175 years old and the University of Kent was established in 1965. Why else would he omit any mention that he studied at and obtained his doctorate with the dissertation title of "Enhanced Raman spectra from electrodes : a study of the surface enhanced Raman effect and its utility and scope with regard to the examination of electrochemical and interfacial phenomena" I am researching the other claims made by the bereted one in the above statement. I wonder if there is a transcript of his remarks in Vilnius or how he came to be invited to speak at this event. At least one participant has indicated in private correspondence to me that he and others had wanted to disinvite the bereted one. Roger Helbig From sjd at swcp.com Wed Dec 14 19:45:21 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:45:21 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <4EE873CE.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> <201112140200.pBE203SO027120@ame8.swcp.com> <4EE873CE.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> Message-ID: <201112150215.pBF2FAUX037200@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 14 Thank you for making this correction. I "supposed" wrong. Steven Dapra At 08:00 AM 12/14/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al. -- > >Chairman Jaczko was appointed to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission >by President Bush (43) and made Chairman by President Obama. > >Jim > > >>> Steven Dapra 12/13/2011 21:00 >>> >Dec. 13 > > Well, who appointed this Markey aide? Obama, I >suppose. What did you expect? > >Steven Dapra > > > >At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: > >How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair > >of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? > > >Brent Rogers Sydney Australia > >[edit] From sjd at swcp.com Wed Dec 14 20:22:09 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:22:09 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] A bit of background politics on NRC Commissioner Jaczko, Sen. Reid [D-NV], Congressman Markey [D-MA] In-Reply-To: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> References: <000601ccba21$3f47f7f0$bdd7e7d0$@net> Message-ID: <201112150222.pBF2M6rM008421@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 14 Thank you for the link, Stewart. A lot of whining by Jaczko about how he wants to improve "safety." I wonder how big of an increment these safety improvements would be. Is Jaczko merely wrapping himself in the flag of safety? So much 'he said, she said;' and 'did not, did too' has arisen in this squabble that I doubt whether we will ever be able to find out where the truth is. Should we blame Bush too much for Jaczko's appointment? Doesn't the Senate have to approve the NRC commissioners? Of course those appointments generally get rubber-stamped. . . . Steven Dapra At 10:28 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >To get a bit of background on the politics of NRC Chairman Jaczko being >appointed to the NRC in 2005 as a Commissioner, and later NRC Chairman see >the following article from today's Huffington Post: > >NRC 'Coup' Leader, Bill Magwood, Consulted For Fukushima Parent Company > >http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/12/nrc-coup-leader-worked-fo_n_1143895 >.html >or: > >http://tinyurl.com/7l56nzx > >You can't blame the Obama administration for Jaczko becoming a commissioner >in 2005 since Bush approved it. But Obama did finally allow Jaczko to be >named Chairman. [edit] >Stewart Farber, MS Public Health >Bridgeport, CT 06604 >SAFarber at optonline.net >203-441-8433 From sjd at swcp.com Wed Dec 14 21:05:09 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:05:09 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112150305.pBF357RT063729@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 14 Comments below. Steven Dapra At 09:05 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >Steven Dapra wrote: > > > In the second link Salsman is harping on whether or not we > > on RADSAFE believe that uranium is a genotoxin. He wrote: > > > > "Again, do you believe that uranium is a genotoxin or not? The > > literature is abundantly clear on the issue, and I wonder why people > > on this list get so upset about the question." > > > > First, I have asked Salsman at least twice to answer his own > > question and so far he has refused to do so.... > >There were some moderation issues, so perhaps Steven missed >http://health.phys.iit.edu/archives/2011-September/034040.html >citing http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/89/1/287.abstract >and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19914362 These two quotes are from the abstract to the Oxford Journals paper: "Our results show that exposure to DU by inhalation resulted in DNA strand breaks in broncho-alveolar lavage (BAL) cells and in increase of inflammatory cytokine expression and production of hydroperoxides in lung tissue suggesting that the DNA damage was in part a consequence of the inflammatory processes and oxidative stress." "Comet assay in neutral conditions revealed that DNA damage in BAL cells was composed partly by double strands breaks suggesting that radiation could contribute to DU genotoxic effects in vivo." Note the qualifiers: "suggesting," "partly," "suggesting," and "could contribute." I read the NCBI abstract and found that this study was conducted on mouse embryo fibroblasts. I have my doubts about the prudence of extrapolating from a mouse embryos to humans. Uranium miners have been exposed to uranium for a good long while, and the same goes for workers in gaseous diffusion plants. Have any of these miners or workers been shown to suffer from the (possible) genotoxic effects of U? When some studies show they have, then I might go into panic mode. Until then, I think I'll pass on panicking. >What does it say about us as a society that tenured university >radiation protection faculty, military officials charged with safety >determinations, and apparently whatever fraction of RADSAFE >that chooses to take Steven's questions seriously aren't >familiar with the genotoxic properties of uranium? Is it any >wonder that people have safety concerns about nuclear power? > >Sincerely, >James Salsman The only questions I have asked about this are (first) a request for Salsman to reveal his views on the genotoxicity of U; and (second) for him to provide some citations. Is there any good reason why these questions should not be taken seriously? You, James, do not know how many people on RADSAFE or anywhere else are "familiar" with the genotoxic properties of U. The genotoxity of U is not exactly at the top of the list for the "safety concerns" of anti-nukers. At least it hasn't been in the anti-nuke literature I've read. James' initial question was, "Again, do you believe that uranium is a genotoxin or not? The literature is abundantly clear on the issue, and I wonder why people on this list get so upset about the question." He still has not directly answered my question about whether or not *he* thinks U is a genotoxin. I don't think two studies, one on rats, and one on mouse embryos, constitutes the literature being "abundantly clear." Furthermore, no one on this list has become "so upset" about JS's questions about our beliefs concerning the (alleged) genotoxicity of U. I think most of us have ignored his question. I would go so far as to say I've given it more time than it deserves. Steven Dapra From doctorbill34 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 21:16:32 2011 From: doctorbill34 at gmail.com (William Lipton) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:16:32 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC reform In-Reply-To: <201112150215.pBF2FAUX037200@ame7.swcp.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B38@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <343964093.854478.1323728057473.JavaMail.root@sz0003a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <6606CFC4-C47B-43DB-AB76-8C2311CD31DA@optusnet.com.au> <201112140200.pBE203SO027120@ame8.swcp.com> <4EE873CE.1E3F.005A.0@dnr.state.ga.us> <201112150215.pBF2FAUX037200@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: The NRC is one of the better regulators. Nevertheless, they share 2 inherent weaknesses with most such organizations: 1. They're always preparing for the last war. The NRC didn't get serious about fire safety until after the Browns Ferry fire; they didn't seem to think that effluent monitors should be able to measure accident levels until after TMI; they didn't get serious about boric acid corrosion until after Davis Besse; etc. Regulators tend to be reactive, not proactive. Keep in mind that the industry, NOT the NRC, took the initiative on groundwater protection. 2. They realize that a successful parasite doesn't kill its host. Virtually all NRC personnel realize that if the industry went away, they'd follow. They thus, along with other regulators, become committed to the success of the industry they regulate. They put on a good show of independence and write a lot of speeding tickets, but they generally avoid anything that truly hurts the industry. While the NRC Chair may not be correct on every issue, I admire his attempt to break up the old boys' club. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 14 > > Thank you for making this correction. I "supposed" wrong. > > Steven Dapra > > > At 08:00 AM 12/14/2011, you wrote: > >> Steven et al. -- >> >> Chairman Jaczko was appointed to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission by >> President Bush (43) and made Chairman by President Obama. >> >> Jim >> >> >>> Steven Dapra 12/13/2011 21:00 >>> >> Dec. 13 >> >> Well, who appointed this Markey aide? Obama, I >> suppose. What did you expect? >> >> Steven Dapra >> >> >> >> At 04:38 PM 12/13/2011, you wrote: >> >How in the heck did a former aide to Ed Markey get appointed Chair >> >of the NRC? Does no one vet these appointments? >> >> >Brent Rogers Sydney Australia >> >> [edit] >> > > > ______________________________**_________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/** > radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From sjd at swcp.com Wed Dec 14 21:19:48 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:19:48 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] NRC Inspector General In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112150319.pBF3Jk61084190@ame8.swcp.com> At 02:46 PM 12/14/2011, you wrote: [edit] >At least the UK and Canada are finally coming around on depleted >uranium inhalation exposure studies: > >http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2011/11/24/opinion-safe-or-not-safe-the-doublespeak-over-depleted-uranium/ > >http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/12/20111205-184512.html > >Sincerely, >James Salsman The first link is to an article in the Caledonian Mercury, an online Scottish newspaper. It is a standard turgid whine about the alleged dangers of DU. The writer proclaims the recent release of a "significant" new paper on DU's supposed dangers. The paper is co-authored by --- would you believe? --- our old buddy Chris Busby. It's the Fallujah hair paper. The Sun News article is about a former soldier from Canada who served in Bosnia and went on a three day hunger strike. He managed to coerce the Canadian government into setting up a "committee on soldiers' health as it relates to depleted uranium exposure." The committee will meet early in 2012, and has until June, 2013 to produce a report. I'm sure the committee won't find anything that hasn't already been found to the point of surfeit. Steven Dapra From sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com Thu Dec 15 08:20:33 2011 From: sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com (sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:20:33 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Transparent bags In-Reply-To: <201112150319.pBF3Jk61084190@ame8.swcp.com> References: <201112150319.pBF3Jk61084190@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <23EBF49D8991ED45AE6F00BEB78F0599946FC2@nahexm116.am.boehringer.com> Hello All, I have three rolls of transparent bags that we no longer need. They may have been used as waste can liners in the past. They are 18x18 and open. Recipient would be expected to come onsite to pick up or pay for shipping cost on delivery. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. Thank you. Sincerely, Sarah Stewart Environmental Health & Safety Boehringer-Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals P: 203-791-6493 F: 203-791-6496 From brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 15 15:29:46 2011 From: brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au (Brent Rogers) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:29:46 +1100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Transparent bags In-Reply-To: <23EBF49D8991ED45AE6F00BEB78F0599946FC2@nahexm116.am.boehringer.com> References: <201112150319.pBF3Jk61084190@ame8.swcp.com> <23EBF49D8991ED45AE6F00BEB78F0599946FC2@nahexm116.am.boehringer.com> Message-ID: <4CECA023-5473-4C5D-BE45-0A9344ABF34B@optusnet.com.au> It might help if you told us where you are. Geographically. Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 16/12/2011, at 1:20, wrote: > Hello All, > > I have three rolls of transparent bags that we no longer need. They may have > been used as waste can liners in the past. They are 18x18 and open. > Recipient would be expected to come onsite to pick up or pay for shipping > cost on delivery. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. Thank > you. > > Sincerely, > > Sarah Stewart > > Environmental Health & Safety > Boehringer-Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals > P: 203-791-6493 > F: 203-791-6496 > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Thu Dec 15 20:02:41 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:02:41 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Message-ID: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 01:04:29 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:04:29 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Salsman, Not Just a Troll - Message-ID: The Scottish article that he referred the list to by former Scottish Parliament Member Dr Bill Wilson, a close associate of Chris Busby and Doug Rokke had a photo that claims to show US Military DU waste underwater from Blatant World.com - in looking at that sight hunting for the photo's origin, I found this from James Salsman - given his background of taking some courses at Carnegie-Mellon University (he told me he was a graduate, but the University was kind enough to tell me that he did not graduate) and not having graduated from anywhere, I seriously question how he could be able to perform any kind of research that could produce this graph. I am beginning to wonder if he has a secret Swiss bank account funded by the Baath party or the Sunni insurgents since he claims to have such close connections into their world. Roger Helbig http://images.blatantworld.com/image/graph_rate_of_birth_defects_per_1000_births_at_basra_university_hospital_iraq.html From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 01:10:54 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:10:54 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <0E2B90B9FADC4CE784EF159276039582@DocHolidayII> Dear Steven: Given the world-wide distribution of uranium, based on crustal abundance models and the widespread distribution of various geological environments that concentrate uranium (e.g. marine black shales, granites, uranium-bearing basins, etc.), I find it difficult to believe that such a claim has not been validated years ago if there really is a correlation. What disturbs me more is that James and his ilk are not touting other well-known naturally occurring agents. Arsenic, for instance, is mutagenic, teratogenic and carcinogenic and a heavy metal toxin. In 1991, I was an expert witness in a NW Georgia litigation involving a chicken hatchery using a septic-tank leach field to dispose of high pH cleaning wastes in a fractured limestone terrain with a low-grade metamorphic overprint. The limestone contained about 1-2% arsenopyrite (AsFeS). The high-pH solutions (pH ~12) hydrolyzed the arsenic from the mineral causing a nearby spring-fed pond at a horse farm to have arsenic concentrations of up to 0.5%. Every foal died either at birth or when it began drinking the tainted water. All the mares developed various problems such as colic. When we drained the pond, only one poor, spine-bent fish (a bass) was found alive. The case never went to court and the chicken hatchery settled with the horse farm and changed their waste management practices. The solubility of arsenopyrite in natural ground waters (pH = ~7) is quite low and usually poses no risk normally. In base-metal (Pb, Zn, and gold- & silver-bearing mining districts, arsenopyrite is a common accessory mineral, and due to the elevated ground water concentrations, there is a worldwide correlation with bladder cancer. Because of this well-documented and worldwide correlation, municipal water systems must comply with an MCL of 10 micrograms per liter. I would argue that such a low MCL (and the cost to attain those levels) is partially unjustified and counter-productive, but the data clearly support the carcinogenic effects of arsenic. This has been known for decades. The body of epidemiological evidence does not clearly link low concentrations of uranium to a specific disease in the manner that arsenic is linked. At least that is my current understanding and has been my understanding for decades. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 19:03 To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com Fri Dec 16 07:56:32 2011 From: sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com (sarah.stewart at boehringer-ingelheim.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:56:32 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Transparent bags In-Reply-To: <4CECA023-5473-4C5D-BE45-0A9344ABF34B@optusnet.com.au> References: <201112150319.pBF3Jk61084190@ame8.swcp.com><23EBF49D8991ED45AE6F00BEB78F0599946FC2@nahexm116.am.boehringer.com> <4CECA023-5473-4C5D-BE45-0A9344ABF34B@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <23EBF49D8991ED45AE6F00BEB78F059994718E@nahexm116.am.boehringer.com> My apologies. My company is located in Danbury, Connecticut. Sincerely, Sarah Stewart Environmental Health & Safety Boehringer-Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals P: 203-791-6493 F: 203-791-6496 -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brent Rogers Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:30 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Transparent bags It might help if you told us where you are. Geographically. Brevity alert: Sent from my iPad On 16/12/2011, at 1:20, wrote: > Hello All, > > I have three rolls of transparent bags that we no longer need. They may have > been used as waste can liners in the past. They are 18x18 and open. > Recipient would be expected to come onsite to pick up or pay for shipping > cost on delivery. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. Thank > you. > > Sincerely, > > Sarah Stewart > > Environmental Health & Safety > Boehringer-Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals > P: 203-791-6493 > F: 203-791-6496 > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From jdaitken at sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com Fri Dec 16 09:16:50 2011 From: jdaitken at sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com (Doug Aitken) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:16:50 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fukushima: cold shutdown achieved? Message-ID: <00a101ccbc05$bc365f00$34a31d00$@sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16212057 Doug Aitken QHSE Advisor, Schlumberger D&M Operations Support Cell Phone: 713-562-8585 (alternate e-mail: doug.aitken at slb.com ) Mail: c/o Therese Wigzell, Schlumberger, Drilling & Measurements HQ, 300 Schlumberger Drive, MD15, Sugar Land, Texas 77478 From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Fri Dec 16 10:31:46 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:31:46 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Fri Dec 16 12:15:38 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:15:38 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <20111216191539.979XJ.29104.root@viefep21.chello.at> Mike and RADSAFErs, May I remind you all to rule #1 issued by all anti-nuclear agitators: "Don't disturb me with facts. I have made up my mind." Best regards, Franz ---- "Brennan schrieb: > Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore > Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in > lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery > workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and > conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM > To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > Dec. 15, 2011 > > It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would > > show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as > employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a > genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth > defects.) > > Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even > anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? > > Steven Dapra > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From ograabe at ucdavis.edu Fri Dec 16 12:36:45 2011 From: ograabe at ucdavis.edu (Otto G. Raabe) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa .lcl> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <20111216185404.477394A9B927@agni.phys.iit.edu> >THE NATURAL FORMS OF URANIUM ART NOT REALLY VERYTOIXIC. It is amazing how much crap can be published based on nothing more than wild imagination and hyperbole concerning uranium and DU. While in graduate school at the University of Rochester I had the opportunity to observe the inhalation studies being conducted with uranium oxide using various animal species. The Rochester studies began in the 40's as part of the Manhattan project and were still in progress when I was a graduate student in the 60's. Two of the key papers summarizing the uranium dioxide inhalation studies were published by Leonard Leach and his associates. The references are Heath Physics 18: 599-612 (1970) and Health Physics 25: 239-258 (1973). The opening sentence of the Abstract of the 1973 paper states: "Inhalation studies show that dogs, monkeys and rats can breathe a natural uranium dioxide (UO2) aerosol of approximately 1 um mass median particle diameter at a mean concentration of 5 mg U/m3 (25 x TLV or 28 x MPCa), for periods as long as 5 yr with little evidence of serious injury." There is no major effect on the bronchial airways!. THESE WERE MASSIVE DOSES DELIVERED OVER SEVERAL YEARS! Natural and depleted uranium are chemically and biologically identical in their behavior and radiologically very similar. DU is not unique in any way. Uranium is present in all the soil and rock on the face of the earth, and small amount are in our food. There is over 70 years of excellent toxicological research on uranium and uranium oxide that seems to be ignored in recent alarmist papers. Uranium oxide, the form to which people might be exposed is neither very toxic and nor a known carcinogen, Kathren et al, beautifully summarized with extensive historical data the trivial toxicological properties of uranium. Kathren, Ronald L.; Burklin, Richard K., Health Physics. 94(2):170-179, February 2008, Acute Chemical Toxicity of Uranium. Otto ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:21:24 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:21:24 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?? pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Ro?n? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?? pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Fri Dec 16 14:59:09 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:59:09 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?z pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Rozn? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?z pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Fri Dec 16 15:10:43 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:10:43 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B6B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Except that the major proponent of this organization has discredited himself repeatedly. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:59 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?z pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Rozn? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?z pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 16:54:11 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:54:11 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] OCCUPY Toledo takes on nuclear power Message-ID: The anti-nukes are very proud of their bullying "mic check" tactics - I would wager that they are pretty much scientifically illiterate, but they have numbers and feel that they have power so they could be a formidable force in driving us back to the stone age. New post on nuclear-news OCCUPY takes on nuclear?power by Christina MacPherson Occupiers disrupt Fermi 3 meeting,?Fox Toledo.com, ?15 Dec 2011,?by Sharia Davis,?MONROE, Mich. (WUPW) - Hopes of?DTE Energy?building a third Fermi nuclear reactor plant in Monroe County won't happen without a fight. As the public meeting at Monroe County Community College to discuss the Environmental Impact Statement for the proposed Fermi 3 nuclear plant in Monroe started with DTE and the?Nuclear Regulatory Commission,?a group of protesters made it a little difficult for the NRC to get its point across. Several demonstrators belonging to?Occupy Toledosaid building a third nuclear plant is dangerous. Minutes into a hearing, about 10 of them chanted the dangers of building a reactor.?READ:?Michael?Leonardi Occupy Toledo statement "The Nuclear Regulatory Commission, in our eyes, just gives a green light to industry to put profit and production ahead of the safety and citizens of this region," said Mike Leonardi of Occupy Toledo. http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/16/occupy-takes-on-nuclear-power/ WordPress.com - one of the primary enablers of scientific illiteracy From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 17:06:42 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:06:42 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: Busby, The way to educate someone is not to point them to some URL and tell them in a snide way to read it - you call yourself a professor - but I wonder what students have you ever taught, in what subjects, where - what graduate students have you advised? Professor is just a handy title to get on TV, right - it keeps you travelling in style to spread your lies around the world. Roger Helbig ECRR Uranium report 2010 - nothing like a Busby authored report to stimulate the mind - have you any verifiable independent evidence to add - I rather doubt it - Who are each of the members of the ECRR besides Busby - he controls their mail - there does not appear to be a list of members posted anywhere on their site. Does any member of this list know any of the other members? If so, have they been made aware of Busby's Japan scam? When someone starts calling "depleted uranium" so-called depleted uranium, you know that science has been left by the wayside and activist propaganda follows - interesting, though in the way that the website name implies that this is the European Radiation Commission - when it fact is just another Busby enterprise. How much money does this one take in and where does it go? Does it pay for cushy trips to Vilnius, etc. On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Busby, Chris wrote: > There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: > http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > Cheers > Chris From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 17:57:37 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:57:37 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] =?windows-1252?q?White_polyester_box_covers_Unit_1_of?= =?windows-1252?q?_Japan=92s_stricken_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_pla?= =?windows-1252?q?nt?= In-Reply-To: <4114830.20497.0@wordpress.com> References: <4114830.20497.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Good article from Asian Wall Street Journal about the challenges of weatherproofing Unit#1 at Fukushima. http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/12/15/a-circus-tent-for-fukushima-daiichi/ Roger Helbig A Circus Tent for Fukushima Daiichi??WSJ, DECEMBER 15, 2011,?The polyester cover erected over Unit 1 of Japan?s stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station was fashioned in the shape of atight-fitting, non-descript, white box. Read more of this post / From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 18:50:44 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 16:50:44 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Arnie Gundersen - Wonder How Much he has cashed in on Fukushima? Message-ID: Gundersen postulates a lot from his vantage point of being a claimed "experienced expert" in this piece. How much of it is true and how much of it is hype? Thanks. http://fairewinds.com/content/fukushima-could-it-have-china-syndrome Roger Helbig From michael.cowie at aramco.com Fri Dec 16 22:58:26 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 04:58:26 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Dental X-Ray Protocols Message-ID: Anyone aware if a critical review of the claims made in the below article and associated references has been carried out? Mike Unrecognized Cancer Risks of Dental Radiation CHICAGO, IL, November 9, 2011 -/WORLD-WIRE/- The well-documented evidence on the radiation dangers of premenopausal mammography are persuasive, although belatedly recognized. In striking contrast, the evidence on the dangers of routine and highly profitable dental radiation, particularly in children, are still virtually unrecognized, warns the Cancer Prevention Coalition. However, these concerns are not new, says Samuel S. Epstein, M.D., Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition. He points to a 2001 report by Dr. John Gofman, a leading international authority on the dangers of radiation, which published well-documented evidence on the cancer risks of ?low dose medical X-rays,? especially to children. A July 2006 publication by Dr. Ruth Kleinerman in Pediatric Oncology, ?Cancer Risks Following Diagnostic and Therapeutic Radiation Exposure in Children,? warned that the most radiosensitive organ in children is the thyroid gland. This report also noted that ?Although thyroid cancer is rare, 6 other large studies had previously confirmed its relationship with prior radiation for treatment of enlarged tonsils or other head, face, or neck concerns.? Dr. Epstein cites a report in the June 2010 MailOnline newspaper published in the U.K., which warned that ?Ten dental x-rays raise cancer risks ? by at least ten times.? This article cautioned that ?X-rays should not be given at checkups or when registering new patients, despite these practices being common in many dental surgeries. The MailOnline report also cited a 2010 collaborative study between the U.K. National Health Service and the universities of Brighton and Sussex which reported that ?multiple exposures to dental X-rays may be associated with increased risks of developing thyroid cancer ? particularly in children and adolescents.? The report further noted that these findings were consistent with previous warnings of increased risks of thyroid cancer in dentists and dental assistants. Dr. Epstein finds further evidence in a November 22, 2010 New York Times article, ?Radiation Worries for Children in Dentists? Chairs,? which warned against risks of radiation from a new scanning device, known as a cone-beam CT scanner. Cone-beam CT scanners are continually generating x-ray images, while rotating around the patient. They emit much higher levels of radiation than do conventional dental x-rays. ?Not surprisingly,? says Dr. Epstein, ?the incidence of thyroid cancer has escalated by 168% since 1975. The past and continuing practice of routine dental radiation, especially in children, is flagrant malpractice, if not criminal.? Dr. Epstein quotes Ralph Nader, who urged at 1979 hearings on the Corporate Criminal Liability Act by the Crime Sub-Committee of the House Judiciary Committee, ?Jail for crime in the streets, but bail for crime in the suites.? Scientific References 1. Ron, E, et al. Thyroid Neoplasia (cancer) Following Low Dose Radiation in Childhood. Radiation Research 120:516-531, 1989. 2. Cardis, E. Risk of Thyroid Cancer After Exposure to I131 (radiation) in Childhood. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 97:724-732, 2005. 3. Shore, R. Issues and Epidemiological Evidence Regarding Radiation-Induced Thyroid Cancer. Radiation Research 131, 98-111, 1992. Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. is professor emeritus of Environmental and Occupational Medicine at the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health; Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition; and former President of the Rachel Carson Trust. His awards include the 1998 Right Livelihood Award and the 2005 Albert Schweitzer Golden Grand Medal for International Contributions to Cancer Prevention. He is the author of over 270 scientific articles and 20 books on the causes and prevention of cancer, including the groundbreaking The Politics of Cancer (1979, Doubleday Books), Healthy Beauty (2010, BenBella Books) and National Cancer Institute And American Cancer Society: Criminal Indifference to Cancer Prevention and Conflicts of Interest (2011, Xlibris Publishing). To read Dr. Epstein?s columns in the Huffington Post, go to: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-s-epstein CONTACT: Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition Professor emeritus Environmental & Occupational Medicine University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health Chicago, Illinois Tel: 312-996-2297 Email: epstein at uic.edu http://www.preventcancer.com ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Sat Dec 17 10:41:46 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:41:46 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Dental X-Ray Protocols Message-ID: <20111217174146.KZ4PM.30725.root@viefep21.chello.at> RADSAFErs, Sorry, but after having read "Cancer Prevention Coalition", thereafter the names of Gofman and Ralf Nader I stoppped reading this article. Anybody who refers to bombastic names of (mostly) fake organisations and cites persons like Gofman and Ralf Nader as witnesses for his claims, is non-credible and reading his statements is a waste of time. (Remember that Gofman is also one of the favorite authors of our raman-spectroscopist, Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr ...... To answer your question: Why should anybody waste his time to critically review those claims? It is a very well known trick of those anti-everythings to keep experts busy by demanding expertises (of course free of charge - contrary to for instance our Prof. Dr. Dr......) Best regards, Franz ---- "Cowie schrieb:> Anyone aware if a critical review of the claims made in the below article and associated references has been carried out? > > Mike > > > > Unrecognized Cancer Risks of Dental Radiation > > CHICAGO, IL, November 9, 2011 -/WORLD-WIRE/- The well-documented evidence on the radiation dangers of premenopausal mammography are persuasive, although belatedly recognized. In striking contrast, the evidence on the dangers of routine and highly profitable dental radiation, particularly in children, are still virtually unrecognized, warns the Cancer Prevention Coalition. > > However, these concerns are not new, says Samuel S. Epstein, M.D., Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition. He points to a 2001 report by Dr. John Gofman, a leading international authority on the dangers of radiation, which published well-documented evidence on the cancer risks of ?low dose medical X-rays,? especially to children. > > A July 2006 publication by Dr. Ruth Kleinerman in Pediatric Oncology, ?Cancer Risks Following Diagnostic and Therapeutic Radiation Exposure in Children,? warned that the most radiosensitive organ in children is the thyroid gland. > > This report also noted that ?Although thyroid cancer is rare, 6 other large studies had previously confirmed its relationship with prior radiation for treatment of enlarged tonsils or other head, face, or neck concerns.? > > Dr. Epstein cites a report in the June 2010 MailOnline newspaper published in the U.K., which warned that ?Ten dental x-rays raise cancer risks ? by at least ten times.? This article cautioned that ?X-rays should not be given at checkups or when registering new patients, despite these practices being common in many dental surgeries. > > The MailOnline report also cited a 2010 collaborative study between the U.K. National Health Service and the universities of Brighton and Sussex which reported that ?multiple exposures to dental X-rays may be associated with increased risks of developing thyroid cancer ? particularly in children and adolescents.? > > The report further noted that these findings were consistent with previous warnings of increased risks of thyroid cancer in dentists and dental assistants. > > Dr. Epstein finds further evidence in a November 22, 2010 New York Times article, ?Radiation Worries for Children in Dentists? > Chairs,? which warned against risks of radiation from a new scanning device, known as a cone-beam CT scanner. > > Cone-beam CT scanners are continually generating x-ray images, while rotating around the patient. They emit much higher levels of radiation than do conventional dental x-rays. > > ?Not surprisingly,? says Dr. Epstein, ?the incidence of thyroid cancer has escalated by 168% since 1975. The past and continuing practice of routine dental radiation, especially in children, is flagrant malpractice, if not criminal.? > > Dr. Epstein quotes Ralph Nader, who urged at 1979 hearings on the Corporate Criminal Liability Act by the Crime Sub-Committee of the House Judiciary Committee, ?Jail for crime in the streets, but bail for crime in the suites.? > > Scientific References > > 1. Ron, E, et al. Thyroid Neoplasia (cancer) Following Low Dose Radiation in Childhood. Radiation Research 120:516-531, 1989. > > 2. Cardis, E. Risk of Thyroid Cancer After Exposure to I131 > (radiation) in Childhood. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 97:724-732, 2005. > > 3. Shore, R. Issues and Epidemiological Evidence Regarding Radiation-Induced Thyroid Cancer. Radiation Research 131, 98-111, 1992. > > Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. is professor emeritus of Environmental and Occupational Medicine at the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health; Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition; and former President of the Rachel Carson Trust. His awards include the > 1998 Right Livelihood Award and the 2005 Albert Schweitzer Golden Grand Medal for International Contributions to Cancer Prevention. He is the author of over 270 scientific articles and 20 books on the causes and prevention of cancer, including the groundbreaking The Politics of Cancer (1979, Doubleday Books), Healthy Beauty (2010, BenBella Books) and National Cancer Institute And American Cancer > Society: Criminal Indifference to Cancer Prevention and Conflicts of Interest (2011, Xlibris Publishing). > > To read Dr. Epstein?s columns in the Huffington Post, go to: > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-s-epstein > > CONTACT: > > Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. > > Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition > > Professor emeritus Environmental & Occupational Medicine > > University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health > > Chicago, Illinois > > Tel: 312-996-2297 > > Email: epstein at uic.edu > > http://www.preventcancer.com > > ________________________________ > > The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 11:23:03 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:23:03 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Dental X-Ray Protocols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112171725.pBHHPsIa025602@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 17 How about a mathematical answer: Epstein + Gofman + Nader = trash. Steven Dapra At 09:58 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote: >Anyone aware if a critical review of the claims >made in the below article and associated references has been carried out? > >Mike > > > >Unrecognized Cancer Risks of Dental Radiation > >CHICAGO, IL, November 9, 2011 -/WORLD-WIRE/- The >well-documented evidence on the radiation >dangers of premenopausal mammography are >persuasive, although belatedly recognized. In >striking contrast, the evidence on the dangers >of routine and highly profitable dental >radiation, particularly in children, are still >virtually unrecognized, warns the Cancer Prevention Coalition. > >However, these concerns are not new, says Samuel >S. Epstein, M.D., Chairman of the Cancer >Prevention Coalition. He points to a 2001 report >by Dr. John Gofman, a leading international >authority on the dangers of radiation, which >published well-documented evidence on the cancer >risks of ???low dose medical X-rays,??? especially to children. > >A July 2006 publication by Dr. Ruth Kleinerman >in Pediatric Oncology, ???Cancer Risks Following >Diagnostic and Therapeutic Radiation Exposure in >Children,??? warned that the most radiosensitive >organ in children is the thyroid gland. > >This report also noted that ???Although thyroid >cancer is rare, 6 other large studies had >previously confirmed its relationship with prior >radiation for treatment of enlarged tonsils or >other head, face, or neck concerns.??? > >Dr. Epstein cites a report in the June 2010 >MailOnline newspaper published in the U.K., >which warned that ???Ten dental x-rays raise >cancer risks ? by at least ten times.??? This >article cautioned that ???X-rays should not be >given at checkups or when registering new >patients, despite these practices being common in many dental surgeries. > >The MailOnline report also cited a 2010 >collaborative study between the U.K. National >Health Service and the universities of Brighton >and Sussex which reported that ???multiple >exposures to dental X-rays may be associated >with increased risks of developing thyroid >cancer ? particularly in children and adolescents.??? > >The report further noted that these findings >were consistent with previous warnings of >increased risks of thyroid cancer in dentists and dental assistants. > >Dr. Epstein finds further evidence in a November >22, 2010 New York Times article, ???Radiation >Worries for Children in Dentists??? >Chairs,??? which warned against risks of >radiation from a new scanning device, known as a cone-beam CT scanner. > >Cone-beam CT scanners are continually generating >x-ray images, while rotating around the patient. >They emit much higher levels of radiation than do conventional dental x-rays. > >???Not surprisingly,??? says Dr. Epstein, ???the >incidence of thyroid cancer has escalated by >168% since 1975. The past and continuing >practice of routine dental radiation, especially >in children, is flagrant malpractice, if not criminal.??? > >Dr. Epstein quotes Ralph Nader, who urged at >1979 hearings on the Corporate Criminal >Liability Act by the Crime Sub-Committee of the >House Judiciary Committee, ???Jail for crime in >the streets, but bail for crime in the suites.??? > >Scientific References > >1. Ron, E, et al. Thyroid Neoplasia (cancer) >Following Low Dose Radiation in Childhood. >Radiation Research 120:516-531, 1989. > >2. Cardis, E. Risk of Thyroid Cancer After Exposure to I131 >(radiation) in Childhood. Journal of the >National Cancer Institute 97:724-732, 2005. > >3. Shore, R. Issues and Epidemiological Evidence >Regarding Radiation-Induced Thyroid Cancer. >Radiation Research 131, 98-111, 1992. > >Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. is professor emeritus of >Environmental and Occupational Medicine at the >University of Illinois at Chicago School of >Public Health; Chairman of the Cancer Prevention >Coalition; and former President of the Rachel >Carson Trust. His awards include the >1998 Right Livelihood Award and the 2005 Albert >Schweitzer Golden Grand Medal for International >Contributions to Cancer Prevention. He is the >author of over 270 scientific articles and 20 >books on the causes and prevention of cancer, >including the groundbreaking The Politics of >Cancer (1979, Doubleday Books), Healthy Beauty >(2010, BenBella Books) and National Cancer Institute And American Cancer >Society: Criminal Indifference to Cancer >Prevention and Conflicts of Interest (2011, Xlibris Publishing). > >To read Dr. Epstein???s columns in the Huffington Post, go to: > >http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-s-epstein > >CONTACT: > >Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. > >Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition > >Professor emeritus Environmental & Occupational Medicine > >University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health > >Chicago, Illinois > >Tel: 312-996-2297 > >Email: epstein at uic.edu > >http://www.preventcancer.com From ograabe at ucdavis.edu Sat Dec 17 13:33:57 2011 From: ograabe at ucdavis.edu (Otto G. Raabe) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:33:57 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm *********************** WHAT A CROCK! ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** From SAFarber at optonline.net Sat Dec 17 14:15:23 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:15:23 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fear-mongering -Existance of Busby Foundation?? was: RE: Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> Message-ID: <000001ccbcf8$9bdfd2b0$d39f7810$@net> Hi All, While Busby snidely refers to others being an "intransigent ostrich" about a technical point in a recent post, he continues to refuse to answer any questions posed earlier that would provide a shred of evidence that what he has been doing regarding Fukushima is not fraudulent in his selling seemingly magic rad detox 4 mineral pills at multi-vitamin strength at inflated prices. To date, Busby has refused to provide any documentation that Busby Laboratories and the so-called "Busby Foundation for the Children of Fukushima", for which he is requesting donations to a personal bank account, even exist as legal entities. One would have to be an ostrich not wonder how someone like this, who has committed what can only be judged to be fraud unless demonstrated to be otherwise by his answering earlier reasonable questions, has the audacity to post anything on Radsafe rather than hang their head in shame and post only to some sympathetic, scientifically illiterate group that might wish to listen to him. Stewart Farber, MS Public Health -----Original Message----- To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm *********************** From maurysis at peoplepc.com Sat Dec 17 17:32:21 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:32:21 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4EED2685.8020802@peoplepc.com> Surely better an intransigent ostrich than a ... Does your Foundation sell them by the bottle or per tablet? Maury&Dog [MaurySiskel maurysis at peoplepc.com] ========================================= On 12/16/2011 2:59 PM, Busby, Chris wrote: > There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: > http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > Cheers > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn > Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > Hi Mike& Franz - > > That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and -----------------------------snipped-------------------- From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 17:42:52 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:42:52 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <201112172342.pBHNgoFT099982@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 16 I wish to thank all the RADSAFErs who answered my question about the (alleged) genotoxicity of uranium. Your answers were clear, concise, and informative. Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 17:46:50 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:46:50 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <20111216185404.477394A9B927@agni.phys.iit.edu> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <20111216185404.477394A9B927@agni.phys.iit.edu> Message-ID: <201112172346.pBHNknLB005534@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 16 This link is to a unsigned polemic against DU. At the bottom of the polemic is a link to a PDF article by --- would you believe? --- Chris Busby. He quotes himself 13 times, and quotes a few other articles that he co-authored. Chris, baby, you're so hung up on yourself you wouldn't recognize an ostrich if he walked up and offered you a sand manhattan with a fake cherry made of DU and painted sky blue pink. Steven Dapra At 02:59 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote: >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >Cheers >Chris [edit] >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra >Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM >To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu >Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >Dec. 15, 2011 > > It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would > >show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as >employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a >genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth >defects.) > > Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even >anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? > >Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 17:47:27 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:47:27 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <20111216185404.477394A9B927@agni.phys.iit.edu> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <20111216185404.477394A9B927@agni.phys.iit.edu> Message-ID: <201112172347.pBHNlPH7006133@ame8.swcp.com> To: RADSAFE Subject: Eur. Cmte. on Rad. Risk Dec. 16 Wikipedia's entry on the European Committee on Radiation Risk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_on_Radiation_Risk Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 20:12:34 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:12:34 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Sodium-22 (A strange story) Message-ID: <201112180212.pBI2CXNm064614@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 17 Here's a peculiar one for you. http://news.yahoo.com/russian-customs-seize-iran-bound-radioactive-metal-120402008.html Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 20:31:42 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 02:31:42 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Sodium-22 (A strange story) Message-ID: <201112170438.pBH4chwK083102@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 16 Here's a peculiar one for you. http://news.yahoo.com/russian-customs-seize-iran-bound-radioactive-metal-120402008.html Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 20:31:53 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 02:31:53 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Eur. Cmte. on Rad. Risk Message-ID: <201112170507.pBH57HTs031529@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 16 Wikipedia's entry on the European Committee on Radiation Risk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_on_Radiation_Risk Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 20:32:04 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 02:32:04 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <201112170527.pBH5R8CY051392@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 16 This link is to a unsigned polemic against DU. At the bottom of the polemic is a link to a PDF article by --- would you believe? --- Chris Busby. He quotes himself 13 times, and quotes a few other articles that he co-authored. Chris, baby, you're so hung up on yourself you wouldn't recognize an ostrich if he walked up and offered you a sand manhattan with a fake cherry made of DU and painted sky blue pink. Steven Dapra At 02:59 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote: >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >Cheers >Chris [edit] >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra >Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM >To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu >Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >Dec. 15, 2011 > > It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would > >show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as >employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a >genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth >defects.) > > Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even >anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? > >Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Sat Dec 17 20:32:09 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 02:32:09 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <0E2B90B9FADC4CE784EF159276039582@DocHolidayII> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <0E2B90B9FADC4CE784EF159276039582@DocHolidayII> Message-ID: <201112170529.pBH5TCZt053295@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 16 I wish to thank all the RADSAFErs who answered my question about the (alleged) genotoxicity of uranium. Your answers were clear, concise, and informative. Steven Dapra From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Sun Dec 18 10:11:02 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 16:11:02 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B6B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> No. This is not good enough. You cannot ignore research articles because you dont like the person that cites them. This business of attacking me personally rather than addressing the science, which is in research which is not carried out by me is the pathetic refuge of those who cannot face up the the fact that they are wrong. Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 21:10 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Except that the major proponent of this organization has discredited himself repeatedly. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:59 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?z pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Rozn? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?z pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Sun Dec 18 10:23:32 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 16:23:32 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm *********************** WHAT A CROCK! ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From mark.ramsay at ionactive.co.uk Sun Dec 18 10:30:57 2011 From: mark.ramsay at ionactive.co.uk (Mark Ramsay) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 16:30:57 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <62862A47-59F0-4F8F-B8BF-66340C82D706@ionactive.co.uk> Owch!!! Cracking a beer, sitting back and waiting in anticipation :-) Mark Sent from my iPhone On 18 Dec 2011, at 16:25, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. > It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? > There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. > > Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. > You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. > Cheers > Chris > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe > Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > *********************** > WHAT A CROCK! > > > ********************************************** > Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP > Center for Health & the Environment > University of California > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616 > E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu > Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 > *********************************************** > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 11:01:34 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:01:34 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com> Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk contemporary scientific understanding? Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. > It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? > There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. > > Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. > You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. > Cheers > Chris > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe > Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > *********************** > WHAT A CROCK! > > > ********************************************** > Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP > Center for Health & the Environment > University of California > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616 > E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu > Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 > *********************************************** > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 11:01:34 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:01:34 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com> Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk contemporary scientific understanding? Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. > It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? > There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. > > Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. > You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. > Cheers > Chris > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe > Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > *********************** > WHAT A CROCK! > > > ********************************************** > Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP > Center for Health & the Environment > University of California > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616 > E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu > Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 > *********************************************** > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk Sun Dec 18 11:21:35 2011 From: C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk (Busby, Chris) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:21:35 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com> Message-ID: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> What I am saying is that in a court of law, the evidence is presented by both sides and the result is a proper analysis of this evidence by the judge (or jury); the judge then sums up and has to include all the evidence and the interpretation of that evidence. Otherwise the case is open to appeal. Evidence along the lines of "what a crock" is not admissable. Nor are personal attacks. Nor is Wikipedia as a source of evidence. All the Helbig crap and the crap on the internet, wikepedia, chrisbusbyexposed and so forth have been brought into several of my recent court cases by the UK Ministry of Defence. The judges threw it all out and the cases were all won for the clients I represented as an expert witness. For it to work in a court, Helbig or Dapra or Ministerat Franz, or Raabe or whoever would have to come into the witness box and give evidence. Then it would be rapidly clear under cross examination what their evidence was worth. Or in the US this would appear in the pre-court deposition stages and the Daubert routines. It is easy to call people names on the internet, or even in this Radsafe forum, but it cuts no ice in court. Science is not made by weighing the number of people who believe something on one pan and those who believe the opposite on the other pan, nor is it made in courts, but at least in courts you get a honest hearing and the rednecks are kept out by the court officials and the judge under the contempt of court rules. They can then repair to the beer joints or the internet. All the best Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Cowie, Michael I Sent: Sun 18/12/2011 17:01 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk contemporary scientific understanding? Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. > It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? > There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. > > Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. > You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. > Cheers > Chris > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe > Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > *********************** > WHAT A CROCK! > > > ********************************************** > Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP > Center for Health & the Environment > University of California > One Shields Avenue > Davis, CA 95616 > E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu > Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 > *********************************************** > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as "this Email"), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Sun Dec 18 11:34:04 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:34:04 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <06E05351-2F8F-4569-AAAC-F29CA2710259@iit.edu> I guess that is what is wrong with the legal system. Scientific truth is not and will never be decided in a courtroom. On Dec 18, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Busby, Chris wrote: > The judges threw it all out and the cases were all won for the clients I represented as an expert witness. From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 11:35:35 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:35:35 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B6B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <570B5738B32948B490BF49FB144747F9@DocHolidayII> Chris: How many samples have you collected in the field? One or two dozen at most? In my first field season 35 years ago in 1976, I sampled water & sediment for uranium over an area of 10,000 km^2 involving the collection of about 1500 samples. Moreover, since I come from a part of the world that you deem 'redneck', to wit, Alabama, and not worthy of any further consideration, I do take umbrage to your words and demand apology. Yes, I have been in one of those courts that you might consider 'redneck' as an expert witness, explaining scientific concepts to a jury in which, not one, had finished high school. I take it from your words that you have 'dismissed' Prof. Raabe's research as well, because had you read it, and weighed the evidence, you could not espouse the soiled dishwater that you throw out as 'evidence'. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home ? New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 09:11 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U No. This is not good enough. You cannot ignore research articles because you dont like the person that cites them. This business of attacking me personally rather than addressing the science, which is in research which is not carried out by me is the pathetic refuge of those who cannot face up the the fact that they are wrong. Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 21:10 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Except that the major proponent of this organization has discredited himself repeatedly. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:59 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?z pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Rozn? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?z pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Sun Dec 18 11:35:39 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:35:39 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Time to Get the List Back On Track Message-ID: <03C424AD-B3F9-4251-B89C-91D6FAA66C2B@iit.edu> Please stop with these exchanges that never seem to end. Thanks, Jeff From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 11:37:46 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:37:46 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <716553BC-F8D0-485A-8C09-84C7FBAE2F95@aramco.com> Without going into case specifics, these type of actions are normally settled on a balance of probabilities associated with a duty of care (no?) rather than scientific evidence? Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:22 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > What I am saying is that in a court of law, the evidence is presented by both sides and the result is a proper analysis of this evidence by the judge (or jury); the judge then sums up and has to include all the evidence and the interpretation of that evidence. Otherwise the case is open to appeal. Evidence along the lines of "what a crock" is not admissable. Nor are personal attacks. Nor is Wikipedia as a source of evidence. All the Helbig crap and the crap on the internet, wikepedia, chrisbusbyexposed and so forth have been brought into several of my recent court cases by the UK Ministry of Defence. The judges threw it all out and the cases were all won for the clients I represented as an expert witness. For it to work in a court, Helbig or Dapra or Ministerat Franz, or Raabe or whoever would have to come into the witness box and give evidence. Then it would be rapidly clear under cross examination what their evidence was worth. Or in the US this would appear in the pre-cou > rt deposition stages and the Daubert routines. It is easy to call people names on the internet, or even in this Radsafe forum, but it cuts no ice in court. Science is not made by weighing the number of people who believe something on one pan and those who believe the opposite on the other pan, nor is it made in courts, but at least in courts you get a honest hearing and the rednecks are kept out by the court officials and the judge under the contempt of court rules. They can then repair to the beer joints or the internet. > All the best > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Cowie, Michael I > Sent: Sun 18/12/2011 17:01 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk contemporary scientific understanding? > > Mike > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > >> "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. >> It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? >> There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. >> >> Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. >> You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. >> Cheers >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe >> Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U >> >> At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >>> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >>> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >> *********************** >> WHAT A CROCK! >> >> >> ********************************************** >> Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP >> Center for Health & the Environment >> University of California >> One Shields Avenue >> Davis, CA 95616 >> E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu >> Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 >> *********************************************** >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > ________________________________ > > The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as "this Email"), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 11:37:46 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:37:46 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com>, <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <716553BC-F8D0-485A-8C09-84C7FBAE2F95@aramco.com> Without going into case specifics, these type of actions are normally settled on a balance of probabilities associated with a duty of care (no?) rather than scientific evidence? Mike Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:22 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > What I am saying is that in a court of law, the evidence is presented by both sides and the result is a proper analysis of this evidence by the judge (or jury); the judge then sums up and has to include all the evidence and the interpretation of that evidence. Otherwise the case is open to appeal. Evidence along the lines of "what a crock" is not admissable. Nor are personal attacks. Nor is Wikipedia as a source of evidence. All the Helbig crap and the crap on the internet, wikepedia, chrisbusbyexposed and so forth have been brought into several of my recent court cases by the UK Ministry of Defence. The judges threw it all out and the cases were all won for the clients I represented as an expert witness. For it to work in a court, Helbig or Dapra or Ministerat Franz, or Raabe or whoever would have to come into the witness box and give evidence. Then it would be rapidly clear under cross examination what their evidence was worth. Or in the US this would appear in the pre-cou > rt deposition stages and the Daubert routines. It is easy to call people names on the internet, or even in this Radsafe forum, but it cuts no ice in court. Science is not made by weighing the number of people who believe something on one pan and those who believe the opposite on the other pan, nor is it made in courts, but at least in courts you get a honest hearing and the rednecks are kept out by the court officials and the judge under the contempt of court rules. They can then repair to the beer joints or the internet. > All the best > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Cowie, Michael I > Sent: Sun 18/12/2011 17:01 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk contemporary scientific understanding? > > Mike > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > >> "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. >> It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? >> There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in the face of all that evidence. >> >> Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all died of lung cancer. >> You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. >> Cheers >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe >> Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U >> >> At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: >>> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >>> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >> *********************** >> WHAT A CROCK! >> >> >> ********************************************** >> Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP >> Center for Health & the Environment >> University of California >> One Shields Avenue >> Davis, CA 95616 >> E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu >> Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 >> *********************************************** >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > ________________________________ > > The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as "this Email"), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Sun Dec 18 11:47:27 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:47:27 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B6B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <201112181747.pBIHlPB3050909@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 18 I have posted critiques of your "research articles" and showed that they are worthless. Even after I asked you to comment on them you refused to do so. Steven Dapra At 09:11 AM 12/18/2011, you wrote: >No. This is not good enough. You cannot ignore research articles >because you dont like the person that cites them. This business of >attacking me personally rather than addressing the science, which is >in research which is not carried out by me is the pathetic refuge of >those who cannot face up the the fact that they are wrong. >Chris > > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH) >Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 21:10 >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >Except that the major proponent of this organization has discredited >himself repeatedly. > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:59 PM >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing >List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >Cheers >Chris [edit] From sjd at swcp.com Sun Dec 18 11:51:23 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:51:23 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <201112181751.pBIHpL1I054922@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 18 "This business of attacking [Otto Raabe] personally rather than addressing the science, which is in research which is not carried out by me is the pathetic refuge of those who cannot face up the the fact that they are wrong." Where have we heard that before? Dr. Otto Raabe impresses Dapra because Dr. Raabe is a scientist --- quite unlike the beret-wearing, yacht-sailing, . . . (whatever). Steven Dapra At 09:23 AM 12/18/2011, you wrote: >"What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. >It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. Ha >Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and merriment. >Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be a >scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, and I >notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from me a >few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do you remember? >There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to all >that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic in >the face of all that evidence. > >Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue >again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all >died of lung cancer. >You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra et >al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. >Cheers >Chris > > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe >Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: > >There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: > >http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm >*********************** >WHAT A CROCK! > > >********************************************** >Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP >Center for Health & the Environment >University of California >One Shields Avenue >Davis, CA 95616 >E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu >Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 >*********************************************** From sjd at swcp.com Sun Dec 18 11:55:38 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:55:38 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ul ster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <20111217194354.DEE00444158B@agni.phys.iit.edu> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7B@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> <76AEFF1C-428A-48A1-9CD1-4DBFA2E42EA7@aramco.com> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7F@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <201112181755.pBIHtaM4059684@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 18 Is that what is believed by the inhabitants of the planet where you live, Chris? You don't know much about how the legal system has been corrupted in the U. S. of A., that's for certain. Steven Dapra At 10:21 AM 12/18/2011, you wrote: >What I am saying is that in a court of law, the evidence is >presented by both sides and the result is a proper analysis of this >evidence by the judge (or jury); the judge then sums up and has to >include all the evidence and the interpretation of that evidence. >Otherwise the case is open to appeal. Evidence along the lines of >"what a crock" is not admissable. Nor are personal attacks. Nor is >Wikipedia as a source of evidence. All the Helbig crap and the crap >on the internet, wikepedia, chrisbusbyexposed and so forth have been >brought into several of my recent court cases by the UK Ministry of >Defence. The judges threw it all out and the cases were all won for >the clients I represented as an expert witness. For it to work in a >court, Helbig or Dapra or Ministerat Franz, or Raabe or whoever >would have to come into the witness box and give evidence. Then it >would be rapidly clear under cross examination what their evidence >was worth. Or in the US this would appear in the pre-cou > rt deposition stages and the Daubert routines. It is easy to call > people names on the internet, or even in this Radsafe forum, but it > cuts no ice in court. Science is not made by weighing the number of > people who believe something on one pan and those who believe the > opposite on the other pan, nor is it made in courts, but at least > in courts you get a honest hearing and the rednecks are kept out by > the court officials and the judge under the contempt of court > rules. They can then repair to the beer joints or the internet. >All the best >Chris > > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Cowie, Michael I >Sent: Sun 18/12/2011 17:01 >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList >Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > >Chris are you suggesting legal precedent can be used to debunk >contemporary scientific understanding? > >Mike > >Sent from my iPad > >On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:25 PM, "Busby, Chris" wrote: > > > "What a crock" is not a very scientific argument. > > It is a redneck argument from an ignoramus in a low beer joint. > Ha Ha they drunkenly shout and spill their beer in mirth and > merriment. Shame on you Otto Raabe. You at least are supposed to be > a scientist. You would not get away with that in a court of law, > and I notice that you were in a court of law on the other side from > me a few years ago. Remember? What was the outcome of that case? Do > you remember? > > There are so many papers in that compilation that I sent you to > all that you would not dare to argue that Uranium was not genotoxic > in the face of all that evidence. > > > > Anyway, maybe you will be asked to come to court on this issue > again. Then you can explain how your control dogs mysteriously all > died of lung cancer. > > You might impress all these low life rednecks like Helbig, Dapra > et al, but you dont get far with this stuff in front of a judge. > > Cheers > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe > > Sent: Sat 17/12/2011 19:33 > > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U > > > > At 12:59 PM 12/16/2011, Busby wrote: > >> There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent > ostrich here: > >> http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm > > *********************** > > WHAT A CROCK! > > > > > > ********************************************** > > Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP > > Center for Health & the Environment > > University of California > > One Shields Avenue > > Davis, CA 95616 > > E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu > > Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 > > *********************************************** From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 18 15:19:17 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 13:19:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Scientists may be able to double efficacy of radiation therapy Message-ID: <1324243157.37578.YahooMailRC@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://news.georgiahealth.edu/archives/4955 Scientists may be able to double efficacy of radiation therapy From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 23:53:22 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 05:53:22 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Legal rulings & Compensation - Process Message-ID: In light of recent discussion on the topic of expert witness testimony and court rulings, I thought these links may be of interest. Apologies if I am providing something that is already widely known and understood: http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/mlo/lung.htm In question/Paragraph 9. It states: In uranium miners the key exposure is to radon progeny....not Uranium itself per se. It is interesting to note paragraph five in the next link, which states: There is little dispute that a standardized incidence ratio (SIR) that identifies an increased risk of 200 (or a relative risk of 2) or more, may support a finding of entitlement, subject to consideration of the evidence in its entirety. An SIR of 200 means that for every 100 incidents of cancer that would have been expected but for the workplace exposure, the studies have identified 100 additional cases that would likely not have occurred but for that risk. Therefore, all must be compensated. This result flows from the principle of the benefit of doubt. This analysis is not medical or even scientific. Rather, it is mathematical. The SIR of 200 is the point of equal probability, and results from the application of mathematical principles to the determination of probability. http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/wsiatr/vol_79/574_05.html Mike ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From michael.cowie at aramco.com Sun Dec 18 23:53:22 2011 From: michael.cowie at aramco.com (Cowie, Michael I) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 05:53:22 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Legal rulings & Compensation - Process Message-ID: In light of recent discussion on the topic of expert witness testimony and court rulings, I thought these links may be of interest. Apologies if I am providing something that is already widely known and understood: http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/mlo/lung.htm In question/Paragraph 9. It states: In uranium miners the key exposure is to radon progeny....not Uranium itself per se. It is interesting to note paragraph five in the next link, which states: There is little dispute that a standardized incidence ratio (SIR) that identifies an increased risk of 200 (or a relative risk of 2) or more, may support a finding of entitlement, subject to consideration of the evidence in its entirety. An SIR of 200 means that for every 100 incidents of cancer that would have been expected but for the workplace exposure, the studies have identified 100 additional cases that would likely not have occurred but for that risk. Therefore, all must be compensated. This result flows from the principle of the benefit of doubt. This analysis is not medical or even scientific. Rather, it is mathematical. The SIR of 200 is the point of equal probability, and results from the application of mathematical principles to the determination of probability. http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/wsiatr/vol_79/574_05.html Mike ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 09:40:57 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:40:57 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Happy Holidays! Message-ID: <955BB145C4DF49ADA9170190A5E90A86@DocHolidayII> Wow! The Lab is closed today, and I hope that I'll be able to get to North Mesa and feed the horses! We are in the middle of a great winter storm, and we might get as much as a foot of snow! Pajarito ski area will certainly be busy today! Plus, my daughter is home for the Holidays! Einen guten Rutsch ins neue Jahr! All the best ! Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 19 11:41:38 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:41:38 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U In-Reply-To: <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> References: <201112160202.pBG22aUn042734@ame8.swcp.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B66@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC79@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B6B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <33024CCAFFB61C429DF9581DDE814DF406A4EC7A@MAILSERVICE.ad.ulster.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B72@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Time and again when people address "the science" you ignore them, or you cite things that do not actually refute the objections, or you cite things that turn out to be from you (I await the day when you write two articles simultaneously, each citing the other, and thus produce an infinite "goto" loop). -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:11 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U No. This is not good enough. You cannot ignore research articles because you dont like the person that cites them. This business of attacking me personally rather than addressing the science, which is in research which is not carried out by me is the pathetic refuge of those who cannot face up the the fact that they are wrong. Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 21:10 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Except that the major proponent of this organization has discredited himself repeatedly. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:59 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U There is sufficient evidence for all but the most intransigent ostrich here: http://www.euradcom.org/2010/uraniumreport.htm Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Dan W McCarn Sent: Fri 16/12/2011 19:21 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Hi Mike & Franz - That is the 'Erzgebirge' (Ore Mountains) on the Czech-German border, and geologists do call them the Erzgebirge in English. These are Variscan-aged, autometasomatic, two-mica granites that extend from France (through Germany, Czech Republic, and Slovakia all the way into Ukraine and possibly beyond. The uranium-enriched rocks of the Bohemian massif appear through windows - Fensters - of eroded Alpine overthrust sheets in Austria in places such as Obertauern, which happens to be a great place to ski! The ore-forming process creates solutions enriched in uranium and other metals at the end-stage of crystallization. These solutions are precipitated as zoned intra- and peri-batholithic, contact metasomatic veins and veinlike zones, if memory serves. And you are very correct; a wasting disease (lung cancer) from very high radon levels was an issue back in medieval times. Uranium as a glaze on ceramics and color for glass has been used for centuries. Other metals such as tin, bismuth & silver are associated with contact metasomatism in the Erzgebirge. Weathered Variscan granites also form intermontane sandstone basins that host epigenetic uranium deposits such as at Str?z pod Ralskem in Northern Bohemia. I worked a bit more to the east in the Rozn? area, Central Moravia, on a project for the IAEA as well as at Str?z pod Ralskem. Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 09:32 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Actually, one would expect it to have shown up in the miners in the Ore Mountains, where the radon levels were high enough that the increase in lung cancer was noticeable during medieval times. Or in the pottery workers who worked with uranium in glazes, in high concentrations and conditions where contamination control wasn't even a concept. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:03 PM To: radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Genotoxicity of U Dec. 15, 2011 It seems to me that if uranium was a genotoxin its effects would show up first in uranium miners and in uranium workers such as employees in gaseous diffusion plants. (I am assuming that a genotoxin is a substance that would damage DNA and lead to birth defects.) Has an excessive amount of birth defects been found --- even anecdotally --- in uranium miners or workers? Steven Dapra _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 13:13:22 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:13:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fingerprinting uranium: X-rays identify mobile, stationary forms of atomic pollutant Message-ID: <1324322002.47325.YahooMailRC@web80206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-fingerprinting-uranium-x-rays-mobile-stationary.html Fingerprinting uranium: X-rays identify mobile, stationary forms of atomic pollutant "(PhysOrg.com) -- Determining if uranium will zip through the soil or not is easier now, thanks to scientists at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and the University of North Texas. Dr. Eugene Ilton and Dr. Paul Bagus elucidated a systematic approach for identifying uranium's state and hence its mobility. Their method uses x-rays, in the form of x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. Their technique and detailed analysis appear in an invited perspective article in Surface and Interface Analysis. " From milcon.randc at googlemail.com Mon Dec 19 02:13:12 2011 From: milcon.randc at googlemail.com (Milcon Research & Consulting) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:13:12 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Legal rulings & Compensation - Process In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4eeef222.45c7e30a.2450.427e@mx.google.com> FYI This is the website of the UK nuclear industry's Compensation Scheme for Radiation-Linked Diseases. This site has been created in order to provide potential claimants with the information they will need in order to make a claim and to provide them (and other interested persons) with information on what the Scheme is, why it was conceived and how it operates. There are also links to employers' and unions' websites, if you wish to know more about the Scheme participants, and links to sites offering information on the risks associated with radiation exposure. The Scheme is a joint initiative between the nuclear industry's employers and their trades' unions and it enjoys the ongoing support of all parties as it provides a means of resolving claims without the need for court action (which is lengthy, stressful for all concerned and very expensive), which is more generous in it's assessment of cases than a court would probably be and awards compensation payments at lower levels of causation than would a court. http://www.csrld.org.uk/ Fred Dawson -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Cowie, Michael I Sent: 19 December 2011 05:53 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Legal rulings & Compensation - Process In light of recent discussion on the topic of expert witness testimony and court rulings, I thought these links may be of interest. Apologies if I am providing something that is already widely known and understood: http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/mlo/lung.htm In question/Paragraph 9. It states: In uranium miners the key exposure is to radon progeny....not Uranium itself per se. It is interesting to note paragraph five in the next link, which states: There is little dispute that a standardized incidence ratio (SIR) that identifies an increased risk of 200 (or a relative risk of 2) or more, may support a finding of entitlement, subject to consideration of the evidence in its entirety. An SIR of 200 means that for every 100 incidents of cancer that would have been expected but for the workplace exposure, the studies have identified 100 additional cases that would likely not have occurred but for that risk. Therefore, all must be compensated. This result flows from the principle of the benefit of doubt. This analysis is not medical or even scientific. Rather, it is mathematical. The SIR of 200 is the point of equal probability, and results from the application of mathematical principles to the determination of probability. http://www.wsiat.on.ca/english/wsiatr/vol_79/574_05.html Mike ________________________________ The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and attachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as ?this Email?), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which they are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else without authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 17:45:48 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:45:48 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fingerprinting uranium: X-rays identify mobile, stationary forms of atomic pollutant In-Reply-To: <1324322002.47325.YahooMailRC@web80206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1324322002.47325.YahooMailRC@web80206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does VA Library have "institutional access" to the full article - it is most interesting - You and Carla, have a very Merry Christmas. Not sure what Lizzie and I will do - we might go to the Jewish Museum, which is free on Christmas! Roger On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:13 AM, ROY HERREN wrote: > http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-fingerprinting-uranium-x-rays-mobile-stationary.html > > Fingerprinting uranium: X-rays identify mobile, stationary forms of atomic > pollutant > "(PhysOrg.com) -- Determining if uranium will zip through the soil or not is > easier now, thanks to scientists at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and > the University of North Texas. Dr. Eugene Ilton and Dr. Paul Bagus elucidated a > systematic approach for identifying uranium's state and hence its mobility. > Their method uses x-rays, in the form of x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. Their > technique and detailed analysis appear in an invited perspective article in > Surface and Interface Analysis. " > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From cary.renquist at ezag.com Mon Dec 19 18:15:25 2011 From: cary.renquist at ezag.com (Cary Renquist) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:15:25 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan Message-ID: " Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." http://j.mp/uVc0hE If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite common. ... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for 14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately surrounding the site of the disaster. Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as 18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from Fukushima... Farewell, Cary --- Cary Renquist crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Mon Dec 19 18:36:01 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:36:01 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged FukushimaNuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B80@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> I wait on pins and needles form Mr. Mangano to identify the common characteristics of those who died because of exposure to Fukushima, versus those who died from other causes. I will stipulate there might well be a couple of deaths due to stress brought about by such things as that cherry-picked, fraudulent, piece of trash saying infant mortality on the West Coast went up due to Fukushima, but if Mr. Mangano is going to convince me, he needs something harder to manipulate than a bag of undefined numbers. And perhaps the people who "reviewed" Mr. Mangano's work are his peers, but I doubt they are mine. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Cary Renquist Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:15 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14,000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged FukushimaNuclear Reactor in Japan " Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." http://j.mp/uVc0hE If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite common. ... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for 14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately surrounding the site of the disaster. Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as 18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from Fukushima... Farewell, Cary --- Cary Renquist crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Mon Dec 19 18:43:25 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:43:25 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112200043.pBK0hLts036130@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 19 I read the linked article. The author has cleverly refrained from linking to the alleged "new peer-reviewed study." Probably an accidental oversight. Har, har, har, . . . . Steven Dapra At 05:15 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: >" Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new >reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." > > >http://j.mp/uVc0hE > >If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite >common. > >... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for >14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the >study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope >this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of >radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately >surrounding the site of the disaster. >Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to >the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear >disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most >affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, >infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our >continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as >18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the >period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, >but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their >tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, >and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for >adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. >Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the >radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study >of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific >journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies >continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around >the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to >build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. > > >I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half >an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is >likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from >Fukushima... > >Farewell, >Cary > >--- >Cary Renquist >crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com From rwhelbig at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 19:04:56 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:04:56 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mangano is another Busby, who will say anything to the widest possible audience to cash in on the plight of the people of Japan and to curry favor with the anti-nuclear crusaders. There should be a concerted effort to make people aware that this is misleading information. The death rate increase may be fact, but it has nothing to do with Fukushima. Roger Helbig On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Cary Renquist wrote: > > " Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new > reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said > Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death > rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United > States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." > > > http://j.mp/uVc0hE > > If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite > common. > > ... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for > 14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the > study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope > this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of > radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately > surrounding the site of the disaster. > Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to > the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear > disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most > affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, > infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our > continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as > 18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the > period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, > but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their > tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, > and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for > adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. > Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the > radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study > of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific > journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies > continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around > the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to > build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said > Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death > rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United > States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. > > > I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half > an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is > likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from > Fukushima... > > Farewell, > Cary > > --- > Cary Renquist > crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com From sjd at swcp.com Mon Dec 19 19:05:32 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:05:32 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged FukushimaNuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B80@dohmxtum31.doh.wa .lcl> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B80@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <201112200105.pBK15RcX025705@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 19 Did Mangano conduct the study? The linked article is conveniently vague about who wrote it. Mangano may merely be spouting off about someone else's claims. (The "reviewers" are probably Busby's peers.) Steven Dapra At 05:36 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: >I wait on pins and needles form Mr. Mangano to identify the common >characteristics of those who died because of exposure to Fukushima, >versus those who died from other causes. I will stipulate there might >well be a couple of deaths due to stress brought about by such things as >that cherry-picked, fraudulent, piece of trash saying infant mortality >on the West Coast went up due to Fukushima, but if Mr. Mangano is going >to convince me, he needs something harder to manipulate than a bag of >undefined numbers. > >And perhaps the people who "reviewed" Mr. Mangano's work are his peers, >but I doubt they are mine. > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Cary Renquist >Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:15 PM >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList >Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14,000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at >Damaged FukushimaNuclear Reactor in Japan > > >" Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new >reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." > > >http://j.mp/uVc0hE > >If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite >common. > >... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for >14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the >study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope >this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of >radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately >surrounding the site of the disaster. >Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to >the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear >disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most >affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, >infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our >continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as >18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the >period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, >but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their >tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, >and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for >adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. >Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the >radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study >of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific >journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies >continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around >the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to >build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. > > >I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half >an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is >likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from >Fukushima... > >Farewell, >Cary > >--- >Cary Renquist >crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com From rwhelbig at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 19:08:45 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:08:45 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] False Claim that 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor Message-ID: Each time that the subject line makes it look like RADSAFE's expert community ratifies one of these grossly exagerated false claims, we should change the subject line so that it is clear that the poster is refuting the claim and not supporting it. Roger Helbig On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 19 > > ? ? ? ?I read the linked article. ?The author has cleverly refrained from > linking to the alleged "new peer-reviewed study." > > ? ? ? ?Probably an accidental oversight. ?Har, har, har, . . . . > > Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Mon Dec 19 19:56:08 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:56:08 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged FukushimaNuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B80@dohmxtum31.doh.wa .lcl> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B80@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <201112200156.pBK1u3BT035618@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 19 You may dismount from your pins and needles. Here is an assessment of how Janette Sherman and Joseph Mangano reported on alleged increases in infant mortality after the Fukushima accident. http://nuclearpoweryesplease.org/blog/2011/06/17/shame-on-you-janette-sherman-and-joseph-mangano/ And still more: http://nuclearpoweryesplease.org/blog/2011/06/21/counterpunch-verifies-infant-mortality-fraud-but-seems-to-create-one-themselves/ Here, Sherman and Mangano attempt to explain away their errors: http://nuclearpoweryesplease.org/blog/2011/07/27/sherman-mangano-admits-errors-or-do-they/ Steven Dapra At 05:36 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: >I wait on pins and needles form Mr. Mangano to identify the common >characteristics of those who died because of exposure to Fukushima, >versus those who died from other causes. I will stipulate there might >well be a couple of deaths due to stress brought about by such things as >that cherry-picked, fraudulent, piece of trash saying infant mortality >on the West Coast went up due to Fukushima, but if Mr. Mangano is going >to convince me, he needs something harder to manipulate than a bag of >undefined numbers. > >And perhaps the people who "reviewed" Mr. Mangano's work are his peers, >but I doubt they are mine. (Mike Brennan) [edit] From SAFarber at optonline.net Mon Dec 19 20:04:48 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:04:48 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsence Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <201112200043.pBK0hLts036130@ame8.swcp.com> References: <201112200043.pBK0hLts036130@ame8.swcp.com> Message-ID: <015201ccbebb$c09b8080$41d28180$@net> Hi Steven, Why do you doubt the so-called "study" by Mangano claiming a nonsensical 4.6% increase in death rates from trivial rad doses in the US was "peer reviewed". I think it was reviewed by a group of Mangano's peers: Caldicott, Busby, Wasserman, Sternglass, and a few others. I'm reminded of the scene in the movie Casablanca starring Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman. The French police chief Captain Renault says: "Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects." In the present situation what pertains: "A nonsensical claim has been made about trivial radiation exposure health effects. Round up the usual suspects." Stewart Farber, MS Public Health ==================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:43 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan Dec. 19 I read the linked article. The author has cleverly refrained from linking to the alleged "new peer-reviewed study." Probably an accidental oversight. Har, har, har, . . . . Steven Dapra At 05:15 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: >" Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new >reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." > > >http://j.mp/uVc0hE > >If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite >common. > >... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for >14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the >study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope >this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of >radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately >surrounding the site of the disaster. >Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to >the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear >disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most >affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, >infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our >continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as >18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the >period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, >but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their >tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, >and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for >adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. >Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the >radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study >of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific >journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies >continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around >the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to >build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. > > >I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half >an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is >likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from >Fukushima... > >Farewell, >Cary > >--- >Cary Renquist >crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Mon Dec 19 21:26:59 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:26:59 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsence Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <015201ccbebb$c09b8080$41d28180$@net> References: <201112200043.pBK0hLts036130@ame8.swcp.com> <015201ccbebb$c09b8080$41d28180$@net> Message-ID: <201112200326.pBK3QstO051739@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 19 My message below has nothing to do with any doubt about peer review. I was sarcastically noting that the author of the linked article did not provide a link to the "study." For that matter the author did not provide a citation, nor did she so much as say where it was published. (Perhaps she is one of Busby's understudies.) I've seen "Casablanca" a time or two or three and remember Captain Renault's famous line. Steven Dapra At 07:04 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: >Hi Steven, >Why do you doubt the so-called "study" by Mangano claiming a nonsensical >4.6% increase in death rates from trivial rad doses in the US was "peer >reviewed". I think it was reviewed by a group of Mangano's peers: Caldicott, >Busby, Wasserman, Sternglass, and a few others. > >I'm reminded of the scene in the movie Casablanca starring Humphrey Bogart >and Ingrid Bergman. >The French police chief Captain Renault says: "Major Strasser has been shot. >Round up the usual suspects." > >In the present situation what pertains: > >"A nonsensical claim has been made about trivial radiation exposure health >effects. Round up the usual suspects." > >Stewart Farber, MS Public Health >==================== > > >-----Original Message----- >From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra >Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:43 PM >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at >Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan > >Dec. 19 > > I read the linked article. The author has cleverly >refrained from linking to the alleged "new peer-reviewed study." > > Probably an accidental oversight. Har, har, har, . . . . > >Steven Dapra > > >At 05:15 PM 12/19/2011, you wrote: > > >" Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new > >reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said > >Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death > >rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United > >States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." > > > > > >http://j.mp/uVc0hE [edit] From rwhelbig at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 23:07:00 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:07:00 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan Message-ID: The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent non-scientist. The publication was established by and I would seriously question them about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft beer production. Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team Roger Helbig From tdc at xrayted.com Tue Dec 20 01:14:41 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:14:41 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF035E1.7040300@xrayted.com> You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? Two things: LNTH and SI units! SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units enumerated all the way down to 0. So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a hypothesis - law! It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - ridiculous as it may be. On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: > The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail > dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing > and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an > interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily > baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she > has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent > non-scientist. > > The publication was established by and I would seriously question them > about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for > them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft > beer production. > > Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter > @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, > interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and > Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team > > Roger Helbig > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From lewis at radonmine.com Tue Dec 20 10:25:25 2011 From: lewis at radonmine.com (patricia lewis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:25:25 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 excess deaths in USA from Fukushima!!! Message-ID: Now isn't this an incredible event!! Claims of excess deaths from Fukushima. SNIPPED: The finding, which is the latest report from researchers who have repeatedly sounded alarms about risks from Fukushima, was based on CDC data on deaths in a set of U.S. cities from March 20 to June 25 -- a 14-week period starting after the radioactivity released from the reactor on March 11 has reached the U.S., according to Joseph Mangano, MPH, of the non-profit Radiation and Public Health Project, based on Ocean City, N.J., and author Janette Sherman, MD. http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/EnvironmentalHealth/30305 -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* * * From rjgunter at chpconsultants.com Tue Dec 20 11:08:21 2011 From: rjgunter at chpconsultants.com (Robert J Gunter) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:08:21 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Need Ludlum 2350 or 2360 Message-ID: <00dc01ccbf39$fb202250$f16066f0$@com> Greetings All, I am looking for a Ludlum 2350 or 2360. Please call if you have an extra to sell or trade. Thanks, Rob Robert J. Gunter, MSc, CHP CHP Consultants/CHP Dosimetry www.chpconsultants.com www.chpdosimetry.com Toll Free: (888) 766-4833 Fax: (866) 491-9913 Cel: (865) 387-0028 rjgunter at chpconsultants.com From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Tue Dec 20 11:11:06 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:11:06 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <4EF035E1.7040300@xrayted.com> References: <4EF035E1.7040300@xrayted.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B82@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> I understand and am sympathetic towards your criticism of Linear No Threshold, but I am unsure of how SI units are to blame. While I still think in curies, I acknowledge becquerels are an easier to explain unit. Sieverts are just rem with the decimal place moved. Same with grays and rads. I am not saying you are incorrect; I am just saying I don't understand what you are getting at. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ted de Castro Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:15 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? Two things: LNTH and SI units! SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units enumerated all the way down to 0. So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a hypothesis - law! It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - ridiculous as it may be. On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: > The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail > dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing > and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an > interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily > baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she > has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent > non-scientist. > > The publication was established by and I would seriously question them > about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for > them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft > beer production. > > Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter > @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, > interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and > Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team > > Roger Helbig > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From cary.renquist at ezag.com Tue Dec 20 11:27:16 2011 From: cary.renquist at ezag.com (Cary Renquist) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:27:16 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation: < Berkeley Lab News Center Message-ID: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation: < Berkeley Lab News Center http://j.mp/uoOzEn "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." I recall a few papers from several years ago that seemed to imply the same thing... That at low doses, "safer" repair mechanisms were used or the cell was just allowed to die and at high acute doses, the equivalent of redneck duct-tape and bailing-wire repair mechanisms were used. Best regards, Cary -- Cary Renquist Cary.renquist at ezag.com From lewis at radonmine.com Tue Dec 20 13:18:03 2011 From: lewis at radonmine.com (patricia lewis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:18:03 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Message-ID: any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 13:39:35 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:39:35 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Tue Dec 20 14:01:50 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:01:50 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From tdc at xrayted.com Tue Dec 20 14:08:36 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:08:36 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B82@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <4EF035E1.7040300@xrayted.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B82@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <4EF0EB44.5050205@xrayted.com> The SI DOSE unit is RISK BASED by definition (look it up) - not physics based and are thus not measurable. Also therefore to use the SI dose unit is to declare and define a risk - as small a number as you wish all the way down to zero. That's LNTH and exceeds our actual understanding of what risks really are. For CONVENIENCE and practicality we just take readings on a scale so annotated and/or move a decimal point - but this is a shortcut to try to actually use an unworkable unit. becquerels are a physical unit, Coulombs (rads in air) are also, grays .... I'm not so sure, BUT Sieverts ARE risk based by definition and not just rem with a decimal point moved - although that is how they are used in practice. But then back in the old days few people used RAD and REM correctly - even regulations were written using the wrong units. On 12/20/2011 9:11 AM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote: > I understand and am sympathetic towards your criticism of Linear No > Threshold, but I am unsure of how SI units are to blame. While I still > think in curies, I acknowledge becquerels are an easier to explain unit. > Sieverts are just rem with the decimal place moved. Same with grays and > rads. > > I am not saying you are incorrect; I am just saying I don't understand > what you are getting at. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ted de Castro > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:15 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US > Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in > Japan > > You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? > > Two things: > > LNTH and > SI units! > > SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units > enumerated all the way down to 0. So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units > make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a > hypothesis - law! > > It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - > ridiculous as it may be. > > On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: >> The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail >> dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing >> and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an >> interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily >> baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she >> has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent >> non-scientist. >> >> The publication was established by and I would seriously question them >> about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for >> them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft >> beer production. >> >> Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter >> @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, >> interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and >> Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team >> >> Roger Helbig >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and > understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From glandry803 at earthlink.net Tue Dec 20 14:40:20 2011 From: glandry803 at earthlink.net (Greg Landry) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:40:20 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan Message-ID: <8453081.1324413620712.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Good afternoon, OK, I went back to my Shultis and Faw sheilding text to verify this, although I didn't really need to. Sv = Gy * Ave QF Gy is strictly absorbed dose Sv is equivalent dose Ave QF is determined by RBE factors determined for each radiation type. These RBE factors based on observed biological damage determined via experiment and normalizes damage of non-photon radiations to that of photons. This is basically how the rem is handled as well if I recall. I guess I'm not seeing the risk basis of the definition. If there *is* a risk basis, then certainly it must apply to the rem as well. Best regards, Greg Landry, CHP -----Original Message----- >From: Ted de Castro >Sent: Dec 20, 2011 12:08 PM >To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan > >The SI DOSE unit is RISK BASED by definition (look it up) - not physics >based and are thus not measurable. Also therefore to use the SI dose >unit is to declare and define a risk - as small a number as you wish all >the way down to zero. That's LNTH and exceeds our actual understanding >of what risks really are. > >For CONVENIENCE and practicality we just take readings on a scale so >annotated and/or move a decimal point - but this is a shortcut to try to >actually use an unworkable unit. > >becquerels are a physical unit, >Coulombs (rads in air) are also, >grays .... I'm not so sure, >BUT Sieverts ARE risk based by definition and not just rem with a >decimal point moved - although that is how they are used in practice. >But then back in the old days few people used RAD and REM correctly - >even regulations were written using the wrong units. > >On 12/20/2011 9:11 AM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote: >> I understand and am sympathetic towards your criticism of Linear No >> Threshold, but I am unsure of how SI units are to blame. While I still >> think in curies, I acknowledge becquerels are an easier to explain unit. >> Sieverts are just rem with the decimal place moved. Same with grays and >> rads. >> >> I am not saying you are incorrect; I am just saying I don't understand >> what you are getting at. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ted de Castro >> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:15 PM >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US >> Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in >> Japan >> >> You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? >> >> Two things: >> >> LNTH and >> SI units! >> >> SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units >> enumerated all the way down to 0. So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units >> make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a >> hypothesis - law! >> >> It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - >> ridiculous as it may be. >> >> On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: >>> The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail >>> dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing >>> and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an >>> interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily >>> baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she >>> has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent >>> non-scientist. >>> >>> The publication was established by and I would seriously question them >>> about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for >>> them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft >>> beer production. >>> >>> Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter >>> @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, >>> interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and >>> Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team >>> >>> Roger Helbig >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and >> understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood >> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From radbloom at comcast.net Tue Dec 20 14:56:13 2011 From: radbloom at comcast.net (radbloom at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:56:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <8453081.1324413620712.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1196575253.1523567.1324414573017.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> The average quality factor is the risk part of the rem and the sievert ... I'm confused about the confusion - last I heard 100 rem are equivalent to 1 Sv , ? Cindy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Landry" To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" < radsafe @health.phys. iit . edu > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:40:20 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano : RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan Good afternoon, OK, I went back to my Shultis and Faw sheilding text to verify this, although I didn't really need to. Sv = Gy * Ave QF Gy is strictly absorbed dose Sv is equivalent dose Ave QF is determined by RBE factors determined for each radiation type. These RBE factors based on observed biological damage determined via experiment and normalizes damage of non-photon radiations to that of photons. ?This is basically how the rem is handled as well if I recall. ?I guess I'm not seeing the risk basis of the definition. If there *is* a risk basis, then certainly it must apply to the rem as well. Best regards, Greg Landry, CHP -----Original Message----- >From: Ted de Castro < tdc @ xrayted .com> >Sent: Dec 20, 2011 12:08 PM >To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" < radsafe @health.phys. iit . edu > >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano : RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan > >The SI DOSE unit is RISK BASED by definition (look it up) - not physics >based and are thus not measurable. ?Also therefore to use the SI dose >unit is to declare and define a risk - as small a number as you wish all >the way down to zero. ?That's LNTH and exceeds our actual understanding >of what risks really are. > >For CONVENIENCE and practicality we just take readings on a scale so >annotated and/or move a decimal point - but this is a shortcut to try to >actually use an unworkable unit. > >becquerels are a physical unit, >Coulombs (rads in air) are also, >grays .... I'm not so sure, >BUT Sieverts ARE risk based by definition and not just rem with a >decimal point moved - although that is how they are used in practice. ? >But then back in the old days few people used RAD and REM correctly - >even regulations were written using the wrong units. > >On 12/20/2011 9:11 AM, Brennan, Mike ( DOH ) wrote: >> I understand and am sympathetic towards your criticism of Linear No >> Threshold, but I am unsure of how SI units are to blame. ?While I still >> think in curies, I acknowledge becquerels are an easier to explain unit. >> Sieverts are just rem with the decimal place moved. ?Same with grays and >> rads. >> >> I am not saying you are incorrect; I am just saying I don't understand >> what you are getting at. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu >> [ mailto : radsafe -bounces at health.phys. iit . edu ] On Behalf Of Ted de Castro >> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:15 PM >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano : RE: 14, 000 US >> Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in >> Japan >> >> You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? >> >> Two things: >> >> LNTH and >> SI units! >> >> SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units >> enumerated all the way down to 0. ?So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units >> make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a >> hypothesis - law! >> >> It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - >> ridiculous as it may be. >> >> On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: >>> The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett [@] gmail >>> dot.com - her personal page is at http :// www . britliggett .com/writing >>> and that links back to the article. ?She seems to be someone with an >>> interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily >>> baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. ?I am sure that she >>> has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent >>> non-scientist. >>> >>> The publication was established by and I would seriously question them >>> about why this even appears here - ?the writer has written pieces for >>> them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft >>> beer production. >>> >>> Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter >>> @ JillFehr ) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, >>> interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and >>> Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team >>> >>> Roger Helbig >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and >> understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood >> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http ://health.phys. iit . edu / radsaferules . html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http ://health.phys. iit . edu From tdc at xrayted.com Tue Dec 20 15:12:32 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:12:32 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: <8453081.1324413620712.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8453081.1324413620712.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4EF0FA40.3030801@xrayted.com> Ok - I'll withdraw the comment re SI units. I recall reading that it was risk based many years back when carefully studying ICRU 51 and 60 where the special units are defined. I just scanned over those two documents very quickly and couldn't find what I recall reading then - and so I have to withdraw those comments. What I did find fully supported your findings. I need to go over my notes from those years ago and retrace my steps. I still maintain that LNTH is responsible for these controversies. On 12/20/2011 12:40 PM, Greg Landry wrote: > Good afternoon, > > OK, I went back to my Shultis and Faw sheilding text to verify this, although I didn't really need to. > > Sv = Gy * Ave QF > > Gy is strictly absorbed dose > > Sv is equivalent dose > > Ave QF is determined by RBE factors determined for each radiation type. These RBE factors based on observed biological damage determined via experiment and normalizes damage of non-photon radiations to that of photons. This is basically how the rem is handled as well if I recall. I guess I'm not seeing the risk basis of the definition. If there *is* a risk basis, then certainly it must apply to the rem as well. > > Best regards, > Greg Landry, CHP > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Ted de Castro >> Sent: Dec 20, 2011 12:08 PM >> To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan >> >> The SI DOSE unit is RISK BASED by definition (look it up) - not physics >> based and are thus not measurable. Also therefore to use the SI dose >> unit is to declare and define a risk - as small a number as you wish all >> the way down to zero. That's LNTH and exceeds our actual understanding >> of what risks really are. >> >> For CONVENIENCE and practicality we just take readings on a scale so >> annotated and/or move a decimal point - but this is a shortcut to try to >> actually use an unworkable unit. >> >> becquerels are a physical unit, >> Coulombs (rads in air) are also, >> grays .... I'm not so sure, >> BUT Sieverts ARE risk based by definition and not just rem with a >> decimal point moved - although that is how they are used in practice. >> But then back in the old days few people used RAD and REM correctly - >> even regulations were written using the wrong units. >> >> On 12/20/2011 9:11 AM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote: >>> I understand and am sympathetic towards your criticism of Linear No >>> Threshold, but I am unsure of how SI units are to blame. While I still >>> think in curies, I acknowledge becquerels are an easier to explain unit. >>> Sieverts are just rem with the decimal place moved. Same with grays and >>> rads. >>> >>> I am not saying you are incorrect; I am just saying I don't understand >>> what you are getting at. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Ted de Castro >>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:15 PM >>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Nonsense Claim: by Mangano: RE: 14, 000 US >>> Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in >>> Japan >>> >>> You realize of course that this is here to stay and why? >>> >>> Two things: >>> >>> LNTH and >>> SI units! >>> >>> SI units are proclaimed to be RISK BASED and are a linear units >>> enumerated all the way down to 0. So like 1984's Newspeak - SI units >>> make it impossible to speak anything other than LNTH - thus making a >>> hypothesis - law! >>> >>> It kinda hard of blame anyone for using the units as prescribed - >>> ridiculous as it may be. >>> >>> On 12/19/2011 9:07 PM, Roger Helbig wrote: >>>> The poster (author) of this piece's e-mail is britliggett[@]gmail >>>> dot.com - her personal page is at http://www.britliggett.com/writing >>>> and that links back to the article. She seems to be someone with an >>>> interest in Green things, no expertise in radiation and perhaps easily >>>> baffled by Mangano's alleged academic credentials. I am sure that she >>>> has no idea of Mangano's past reputation for being a prominent >>>> non-scientist. >>>> >>>> The publication was established by and I would seriously question them >>>> about why this even appears here - the writer has written pieces for >>>> them in the past and has experience doing a video documentary of craft >>>> beer production. >>>> >>>> Inhabitat was started by NYC designer Jill Fehrenbacher (Twitter >>>> @JillFehr) as a forum for investigating emerging trends in product, >>>> interior, and architectural design. Managing Editor Mike Chino and >>>> Senior Editor Yuka Yoneda lead the editorial team >>>> >>>> Roger Helbig >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>>> >>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and >>> understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >>> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood >>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >>> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 15:38:42 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:38:42 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 15:58:15 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:58:15 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? From idias at interchange.ubc.ca Tue Dec 20 16:36:30 2011 From: idias at interchange.ubc.ca (John R Johnson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:36:30 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 16:44:24 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:44:24 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21E4@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Hi John, Having just undergone a radioiodine thyroid ablation end of August, and calculating the hourly radiation exposure that was also used to calculate the % uptake over the same time, I know that the KI needs to be taken early to block the amount of radioiodine potential uptake. I don't have any reference off the top of my head but I expect I can find some data in the literature. Happy Holidays! Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:37 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 17:12:53 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <1324422773.98386.YahooMailRC@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John, ??? Unfortunately most of the articles I want to use to answer your question require password access, which I don't have.? Therefore I can't quote the entire articles, only the abstract.? The following abstracts provides some insight into the issue.? It's isn't an entirely straight forward issue.? Too little or too much iodine can casue problems!? ?Roy Herren http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/87/2/486.full Guarding our Nation?s Thyroid Health Iodine supplementation We want people to get the right amount of iodine. Too little is worse than too much, but both deficiency and excess are avoidable. Because pregnancy is the most vulnerable period, I favor additional iodine, usually 150 ?g per day, throughout pregnancy and lactation. Many antenatal vitamin/mineral preparations already include this supplement, and it should ensure adequate iodine for the fetus. The woman who is already receiving enough iodine should have no ill effects from this small addition, and the total intake will normally be well below the tolerable upper limit of 1100 ?g per day as set by the Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine (24). ?http://www.uptodate.com/contents/iodine-in-the-treatment-of-hyperthyroidism Iodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism INTRODUCTION Iodine solutions, such as saturated potassium iodide solutions?(SSKI) or potassium iodide-iodine?(Lugol's solution), replaced burnt sponge extract in the 19th?century as treatment for endemic goiter. By extension, they were sometimes used to treat Graves? disease, but by the end of the century they were considered to be a dangerous form of therapy. They returned to favor in the 1920s as preoperative treatment for hyperthyroidism and were for a time in the 1930s thought to be useful as the sole therapy for mild hyperthyroidism. Today, iodine continues to have a minor role in the treatment of hyperthyroidism. The role of iodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism will be reviewed here. The treatment of hyperthyroidism in general is reviewed in detail elsewhere. (See "Treatment of Graves' hyperthyroidism"?and "Beta blockers in the treatment of hyperthyroidism"?and "Thionamides in the treatment of Graves' disease"?and "Radioiodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism".) MECHANISM OF ACTION Iodine has several effects on thyroid function. In hyperthyroid patients, iodine acutely inhibits hormonal secretion within hours [1], but the responsible mechanisms are uncertain. This is the most acute effect of iodine on thyroid status, occurring within one to two days of the start of therapy. A second effect involves inhibition of thyroid hormone synthesis. In normal subjects, the administration of pharmacologic amounts of iodine leads to temporary inhibition of iodine organification in the thyroid gland, thereby diminishing thyroid hormone biosynthesis, a phenomenon called the Wolff-Chaikoff effect [2]. However, within two to four weeks of continued exposure to excess iodine, organification and thyroid hormone biosynthesis resume in a normal fashion. This is called escape from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect. (See "Iodine-induced thyroid dysfunction"?and "Thyroid hormone synthesis and physiology".) In patients with autoimmune thyroid disease, there is abnormal autoregulation of iodine economy. Iodine-induced blockade of iodine organification persists and can result in or exacerbate hypothyroidism in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, or ameliorate hyperthyroidism in Graves? disease. Thus, patients with Graves? hyperthyroidism are more sensitive to the inhibitory effect of pharmacologic doses of iodine than normal subjects, making iodine treatment effective in some patients. In addition, pharmacologic amounts of iodine may acutely ameliorate hyperthyroidism by blocking thyroid hormone release.???? ________________________________ From: John R Johnson To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 2:36:30 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and? mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure.? In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices).? Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up.? Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter:? http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website:? http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 17:19:01 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:19:01 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths In-Reply-To: <1324422773.98386.YahooMailRC@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21A0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B85@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <1324422773.98386.YahooMailRC@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F1@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Thanks Roy, The articles I've found on-line state that iodine allergy is primarily seen in individuals allergic to seafood. I could not find a specific number of the incidence to iodine allergic percentage in the general population. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:13 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths John, ??? Unfortunately most of the articles I want to use to answer your question require password access, which I don't have.? Therefore I can't quote the entire articles, only the abstract.? The following abstracts provides some insight into the issue.? It's isn't an entirely straight forward issue.? Too little or too much iodine can casue problems!? ?Roy Herren http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/87/2/486.full Guarding our Nation?s Thyroid Health Iodine supplementation We want people to get the right amount of iodine. Too little is worse than too much, but both deficiency and excess are avoidable. Because pregnancy is the most vulnerable period, I favor additional iodine, usually 150 ?g per day, throughout pregnancy and lactation. Many antenatal vitamin/mineral preparations already include this supplement, and it should ensure adequate iodine for the fetus. The woman who is already receiving enough iodine should have no ill effects from this small addition, and the total intake will normally be well below the tolerable upper limit of 1100 ?g per day as set by the Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine (24). ?http://www.uptodate.com/contents/iodine-in-the-treatment-of-hyperthyroidism Iodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism INTRODUCTION Iodine solutions, such as saturated potassium iodide solutions?(SSKI) or potassium iodide-iodine?(Lugol's solution), replaced burnt sponge extract in the 19th?century as treatment for endemic goiter. By extension, they were sometimes used to treat Graves? disease, but by the end of the century they were considered to be a dangerous form of therapy. They returned to favor in the 1920s as preoperative treatment for hyperthyroidism and were for a time in the 1930s thought to be useful as the sole therapy for mild hyperthyroidism. Today, iodine continues to have a minor role in the treatment of hyperthyroidism. The role of iodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism will be reviewed here. The treatment of hyperthyroidism in general is reviewed in detail elsewhere. (See "Treatment of Graves' hyperthyroidism"?and "Beta blockers in the treatment of hyperthyroidism"?and "Thionamides in the treatment of Graves' disease"?and "Radioiodine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism".) MECHANISM OF ACTION Iodine has several effects on thyroid function. In hyperthyroid patients, iodine acutely inhibits hormonal secretion within hours [1], but the responsible mechanisms are uncertain. This is the most acute effect of iodine on thyroid status, occurring within one to two days of the start of therapy. A second effect involves inhibition of thyroid hormone synthesis. In normal subjects, the administration of pharmacologic amounts of iodine leads to temporary inhibition of iodine organification in the thyroid gland, thereby diminishing thyroid hormone biosynthesis, a phenomenon called the Wolff-Chaikoff effect [2]. However, within two to four weeks of continued exposure to excess iodine, organification and thyroid hormone biosynthesis resume in a normal fashion. This is called escape from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect. (See "Iodine-induced thyroid dysfunction"?and "Thyroid hormone synthesis and physiology".) In patients with autoimmune thyroid disease, there is abnormal autoregulation of iodine economy. Iodine-induced blockade of iodine organification persists and can result in or exacerbate hypothyroidism in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, or ameliorate hyperthyroidism in Graves? disease. Thus, patients with Graves? hyperthyroidism are more sensitive to the inhibitory effect of pharmacologic doses of iodine than normal subjects, making iodine treatment effective in some patients. In addition, pharmacologic amounts of iodine may acutely ameliorate hyperthyroidism by blocking thyroid hormone release.???? ________________________________ From: John R Johnson To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 2:36:30 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and? mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure.? In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices).? Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up.? Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter:? http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website:? http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Tue Dec 20 17:21:39 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:21:39 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Found this one site (accuracy unknown): http://www.medicalhistorycard.com/iodine-allergy.html Iodine Allergies - Common Medical Allergic Reactions Iodine is injected into the bloodstream as a contrast media so that blood vessels can appear in X-rays. About three to twelve percent of people react to iodine. Symptoms may include nausea, hives, vomiting, and dizziness. One out of every thousand people suffers anaphylaxis as a result of iodine injections. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:37 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 17:28:13 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <1324423693.44511.YahooMailRC@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 1 in? 1000 10 in 10,000 100 in 100,000 1000 in 1,000,000 10,000 in 10,000,000 100,000 in 100,000,000 300,000 in 300,000,000 (the?approximate population of the?United States) Now that from a direct injection, what would the results be from oral intake? ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 3:21:39 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy Found this one site (accuracy unknown): http://www.medicalhistorycard.com/iodine-allergy.html Iodine Allergies - Common Medical Allergic Reactions Iodine is injected into the bloodstream as a contrast media so that blood vessels can appear in X-rays. About three to twelve percent of people react to iodine. Symptoms may include nausea, hives, vomiting, and dizziness. One out of every thousand people suffers anaphylaxis as a result of iodine injections. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:37 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and? mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure.? In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices).? Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up.? Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter:? http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website:? http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 21 01:32:56 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:32:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For the full article please see http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2011/12/20/low-dose-radiation/ ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 1:58:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Wed Dec 21 08:16:42 2011 From: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov (Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:16:42 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Message-ID: Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 "Those who do not read are no better off than those who cannot" From trackingupdates at fedex.com Tue Dec 20 11:50:00 2011 From: trackingupdates at fedex.com (FedEx) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:50:00 -0400 Subject: [ RadSafe ] FedEx Shipment Notification ID0136044411477835-C24C9 Message-ID: <8269582170.OEIM9FTC666486@cpxvyqecjsdjzl.rnymregtik.com> body { font-family : "Courier New", Courier, monospace; font-size : 9pt; valign : top; text-align : left; line-height: 9pt:w } td { font-family : "Courier New", Courier, monospace; font-size : 9pt; valign : top; text-align : left; line-height: 9pt } ________________________________________________________________________________ This tracking update has been requested by: Company Name: not provided by requestor Name: not provided by requestor E-mail: 'not provided by requestor' ________________________________________________________________________________ ESCROW DOCUMENTS of TRI-CITY ESCROW sent BURKS REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST of LEAVE AT DOOR IF NO ONE IS HOME 1 FedEx Priority Overnight package(s). This shipment is scheduled to be sent on 12/20/2011. Reference information includes: Reference: 26-88283 Special handling/Services: Deliver Weekday Residential Delivery Status: Pending Tracking number: 249485678866 To track the latest status of your shipment, refer to the attached tracking report, or visit us at fedex.com. To learn more about FedEx Express, please visit our website at fedex.com. This tracking update has been sent to you by FedEx on the behalf of the Requestor noted above. FedEx does not validate the authenticity of the requestor and does not validate, guarantee or warrant the authenticity of the request, the requestor's message, or the accuracy of this tracking update. For tracking results and fedex.com's terms of use, go to fedex.com. Thank you for your business. From scottlwilson at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 18:32:23 2011 From: scottlwilson at yahoo.com (Scott Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:32:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1324341143.50358.YahooMailNeo@web111508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Sorry Cary, I didn't mean to send my response only to you.? My apologies. ________________________________ From: Cary Renquist To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan " Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." http://j.mp/uVc0hE If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite common. ... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for 14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately surrounding the site of the disaster. Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as 18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from Fukushima... Farewell, Cary --- Cary Renquist crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From scottlwilson at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 18:31:17 2011 From: scottlwilson at yahoo.com (Scott Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:31:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1324341077.98171.YahooMailNeo@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> There are just not enough words to express how ignorant this article is.? It is ridiculous to link near term death rates in the US with the Fukushima tragedy.? ________________________________ From: Cary Renquist To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14, 000 US Deaths Linked to Radiation Leaks at Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Reactor in Japan " Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010." http://j.mp/uVc0hE If true, I guess that acute death after a chest x-ray must be quite common. ... a new peer-reviewed study blames elevated levels of radiation for 14,000 deaths in the United States - and researchers involved in the study are still wondering how far the death toll will climb. They hope this startling discovery will show nations worldwide that the risk of radiation poisoning is not limited to the community immediately surrounding the site of the disaster. Now researchers say that there could be 4,000 additional deaths due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant disaster - the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl - and infants are the demographic most affected. With their rapidly multiplying cells and growth spurts, infants are extremely susceptible to radiation poisoning. "Based on our continuing research, the actual death count here may be as high as 18,000, with influenza and pneumonia, which were up five-fold in the period in question as a cause of death. Deaths are seen across all ages, but we continue to find that infants are hardest hit because their tissues are rapidly multiplying, they have undeveloped immune systems, and the doses of radioisotopes are proportionally greater than for adults," said Internist and toxicologist Janette Sherman, MD. Prior to this peer-reviewed study, no studies on the effect of the radiation leaks at Fukushima Daiichi have been made public. "This study of Fukushima health hazards is the first to be published in a scientific journal. It raises concerns, and strongly suggests that health studies continue, to understand the true impact of Fukushima in Japan and around the world. Findings are important to the current debate of whether to build new reactors, and how long to keep aging ones in operation," said Epidemiologist Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA. Researchers found that the death rates in the 14 weeks following the radiation's arrival in the United States rose 4.46 percent compared to the same time period in 2010. I guess my time on this earth is now limited -- having just spent half an hour in our lab, I probably received at least 0.5 mrem which is likely orders of magnitude higher than any received in the US from Fukushima... Farewell, Cary --- Cary Renquist crenquist at isotopeproducts.com or cary.renquist at ezag.com _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From milcon.randc at googlemail.com Tue Dec 20 03:35:22 2011 From: milcon.randc at googlemail.com (Milcon Research & Consulting) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:35:22 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] An objective nuclear accident magnitude scale for quantification of severe and catastrophic events Message-ID: <4ef056e5.d139e30a.2f32.2a3a@mx.google.com> Physics Today reports "POINTS OF VIEW An objective nuclear accident magnitude scale for quantification of severe and catastrophic events December 12, 2011 By David Smythe Introduction and summary Deficiencies in the existing International Nuclear Event Scale (INES)[1] have become clear in the light of comparisons between the 1986 Chernobyl and 2011 Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant accidents.[2-4] First, the scale is essentially a discrete qualitative ranking, not defined beyond event level 7. Second, it was designed as a public relations tool, not an objective scientific scale. Third, its most serious shortcoming is that it conflates magnitude with intensity. I propose a new quantitative nuclear accident magnitude scale (NAMS). It uses the earthquake magnitude approach to calculate the accident magnitude M = log(20R), where R = off-site atmospheric release of radioactivity, normalized to iodine-131-equivalent terabecquerels. In NAMS the observed frequency-magnitude distribution of 33 well-quantified events over the past 60 years follows an inverse power law, as with earthquakes,[5] but NAMS highlights four exceptional accidents that are greater by 2-3 orders of magnitude than the next largest. These are, in decreasing order of severity, Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima Daiichi, and Kyshtym. Such catastrophic accidents can be expected to occur every 12-15 years. The problem with INES The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) developed the INES in 1990. It is based in part on a loose analogy with the logarithmic earthquake-magnitude Richter scale, in that one unit difference in event level between 4 and 7 corresponds approximately to a factor of 10 in amplitude. Despite its reference to decade threshold values for off-site radionuclide release for discriminating between levels 4 through 7, the INES is essentially a discrete qualitative ranking. A true location-specific intensity scale measures exposure at a particular time and place due to an accident. Figure 1 shows a popular representation of the scale as a pyramid. continues at http://www.physicstoday.org/daily_edition/points_of_view/an_objective_nuclea r_accident_magnitude_scale_for_quantification_of_severe_and_catastrophic_eve nts or http://tinyurl.com/dxelsk8 Milcon Research & Consulting Phone 020 8287 2176 web http://milconrandc.blogspot.com Mr Fred Dawson, Director Milcon Research & Consulting 3 Barnsbury Close New Malden Surrey KT3 5BP From JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com Wed Dec 21 08:42:52 2011 From: JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com (JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:42:52 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] off-line liquid effluent monitors Message-ID: Hi all, We're working with a client that has had (is having) problems with the off line liquid effluent monitor. These are the usual issues with final effluent water, it has some silt, organic material (bio-fouling), and it's a high flow system that makes it difficult to get a representative sample. So, the questions are: 1. Does anybody have some good ideas on how to cope with this sample (e.g., high flow sample pump and then take a sample of a sample)? 2.How do you cope with these off line sample problems? 3. Has anybody gone to composite raw sampler followed by lab analysis? Thanx in advance - -jmr John Rich 312-269-3768 From SAFarber at optonline.net Wed Dec 21 09:02:33 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:02:33 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 From idias at interchange.ubc.ca Wed Dec 21 11:23:35 2011 From: idias at interchange.ubc.ca (John R Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:23:35 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy In-Reply-To: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: Thanks Sandy I'm interested because I wrote papers in the '70's and '80's and never heard of it. I've lost my copy of ICRP Pub. 23 so I can't see if it was in there. John -----Original Message----- From: Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:21 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy Found this one site (accuracy unknown): http://www.medicalhistorycard.com/iodine-allergy.html Iodine Allergies - Common Medical Allergic Reactions Iodine is injected into the bloodstream as a contrast media so that blood vessels can appear in X-rays. About three to twelve percent of people react to iodine. Symptoms may include nausea, hives, vomiting, and dizziness. One out of every thousand people suffers anaphylaxis as a result of iodine injections. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:37 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From cejjr56 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 11:34:55 2011 From: cejjr56 at gmail.com (Ed Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:34:55 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] off-line liquid effluent monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello John, I don't know of any off-the-shelf systems currently on the market, and obviously Sargent Lundy doesn't have one either or you wouldn't be asking. In most cases an off-the-shelf system would have to be tailored to address the specific sampling needs of the particular site anyway (e.g., radionuclides, their geochemical state, representative flow rates, etc.). Years ago, however, as the junior environmental HP at the Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory (KAPL). I was responsible for the automated sample collection, analysis, and reporting of an effluent at the Knolls Site in Niskayuna, New York that combined secondary- and sometimes tertiary-treated sewage with runoff and groundwater that was diverted and collected from across the site. The effluent passed through a weir and Parshall flume and was discharged to the Mohawk River. The sewage was generally uncontaminated, but the groundwater constituent was primarily contaminated with low levels of highly soluble Sr-90 and much less soluble Cs-137 that were leaching from contaminated soils on the site, mostly from an old underground tank farm that stored processed liquid wastes from lab operations in the 1950s and 60s, including the R&D/pilot project for what ultimately became the PUREX process. The tanks might have been deactivated and removed by now, as the old separations facilities have been/are undergoing remediation (D&D). The effluent sampling system was sheltered in a small enclosure and was custom designed and fabricated in-house. It included a sodium iodide detector permanently inserted into the effluent stream that monitored real time gamma emissions from the cesium and any other gamma-emitting nuclides that would be entrained in the flow. This monitor incorporated an alarm system and its real purpose was to alert us of any unexpected high levels of contaminants in the effluent resulting from accidental releases either in the sewage from lab operations, or from a new surge of ground contaminants that could occur from unusually high groundwater events, such as a rain causing a major snow melt or heavy spring/summer rains, flushing fresh contaminants from soil areas that weren't normal contributors to our effluent. Upon alarm, we would attempt to collect event-specific samples to identify and report the off-normal discharge. The system also included a sampling pump energized by a timer that operated at regular frequencies throughout a 24-hour period in order to provide a sample that was as representative as possible. The captured sample was dumped into a collection bottle that was regularly retrieved for analysis (can't recall if it was weekly or monthly). Thus, we calculated and reported results that reflected mean concentrations over a period of time. The effluent flow rate was typically such that some groundwater sediment was entrained, so that we could capture both dissolved cesium and cesium that was adsorbed onto sediment particles. Cesium, of course, has a high adsorption coefficient for the clay silts that typified the glacial till near-surface geology of that region of upstate New York. Without going into detail, suffice to say that the sample analyses included a suite that would cover all the bases, as pure beta emitters (other than Sr-90) and transuranic alpha emitters were also potential effluent contaminants. I've described this example to point out that great consideration must be given to your client's specific monitoring, sampling, analysis, and reporting objectives, which are radionuclide, hydrologically, and geochemically-dependent, as well as dictated by their in-house and regulatory dictated monitoring and reporting requirements. I don't know if KAPL still operates their system or if they have a new and improved version, but if you cannot find any off-the-shelf systems that can be customized for your client, you might try to contact the environmental folks at KAPL who could provide the design and operations details of their system. IF THERE ARE ANY KAPL-ites READING THIS, and Naval Reactors allows it, you might want to contact John Rich at 312-269-3768 and help him out. Good luck, John. Carl Ed Johnson Health Physicist/Consultant Albuqerque, New Mexico 505-463-6685 cejjr56 at gmail.com On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > Hi all, > > We're working with a client that has had (is having) problems with the off > line liquid effluent monitor. These are the usual issues with final > effluent water, it has some silt, organic material (bio-fouling), and it's > a high flow system that makes it difficult to get a representative sample. > > So, the questions are: > 1. Does anybody have some good ideas on how to cope with this sample > (e.g., high flow sample pump and then take a sample of a sample)? > 2.How do you cope with these off line sample problems? > 3. Has anybody gone to composite raw sampler followed by lab analysis? > > Thanx in advance - -jmr > > > John Rich > 312-269-3768 > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Wed Dec 21 11:45:16 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:45:16 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation In-Reply-To: <1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Aside from the implications for LNT, I would like to point out that the researcher were taking time-lapse images of things going on on DNA. How cool is that? -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation For the full article please see http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2011/12/20/low-dose-radiation/ ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 1:58:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com Wed Dec 21 11:45:20 2011 From: JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com (JOHN.RICH at sargentlundy.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:45:20 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] off-line liquid effluent monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ed, thnx much. This was more than I hoped for. BTW, I'm glad I didn't include that I'm an ex-Bettisite. Would you have been so helpful if you knew you were helping out an ex-competitor? ;-) - - jmr John Rich 312-269-3768 From: Ed Johnson To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: 12/21/2011 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] off-line liquid effluent monitors Sent by: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu Hello John, I don't know of any off-the-shelf systems currently on the market, and obviously Sargent Lundy doesn't have one either or you wouldn't be asking. In most cases an off-the-shelf system would have to be tailored to address the specific sampling needs of the particular site anyway (e.g., radionuclides, their geochemical state, representative flow rates, etc.). Years ago, however, as the junior environmental HP at the Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory (KAPL). I was responsible for the automated sample collection, analysis, and reporting of an effluent at the Knolls Site in Niskayuna, New York that combined secondary- and sometimes tertiary-treated sewage with runoff and groundwater that was diverted and collected from across the site. The effluent passed through a weir and Parshall flume and was discharged to the Mohawk River. The sewage was generally uncontaminated, but the groundwater constituent was primarily contaminated with low levels of highly soluble Sr-90 and much less soluble Cs-137 that were leaching from contaminated soils on the site, mostly from an old underground tank farm that stored processed liquid wastes from lab operations in the 1950s and 60s, including the R&D/pilot project for what ultimately became the PUREX process. The tanks might have been deactivated and removed by now, as the old separations facilities have been/are undergoing remediation (D&D). The effluent sampling system was sheltered in a small enclosure and was custom designed and fabricated in-house. It included a sodium iodide detector permanently inserted into the effluent stream that monitored real time gamma emissions from the cesium and any other gamma-emitting nuclides that would be entrained in the flow. This monitor incorporated an alarm system and its real purpose was to alert us of any unexpected high levels of contaminants in the effluent resulting from accidental releases either in the sewage from lab operations, or from a new surge of ground contaminants that could occur from unusually high groundwater events, such as a rain causing a major snow melt or heavy spring/summer rains, flushing fresh contaminants from soil areas that weren't normal contributors to our effluent. Upon alarm, we would attempt to collect event-specific samples to identify and report the off-normal discharge. The system also included a sampling pump energized by a timer that operated at regular frequencies throughout a 24-hour period in order to provide a sample that was as representative as possible. The captured sample was dumped into a collection bottle that was regularly retrieved for analysis (can't recall if it was weekly or monthly). Thus, we calculated and reported results that reflected mean concentrations over a period of time. The effluent flow rate was typically such that some groundwater sediment was entrained, so that we could capture both dissolved cesium and cesium that was adsorbed onto sediment particles. Cesium, of course, has a high adsorption coefficient for the clay silts that typified the glacial till near-surface geology of that region of upstate New York. Without going into detail, suffice to say that the sample analyses included a suite that would cover all the bases, as pure beta emitters (other than Sr-90) and transuranic alpha emitters were also potential effluent contaminants. I've described this example to point out that great consideration must be given to your client's specific monitoring, sampling, analysis, and reporting objectives, which are radionuclide, hydrologically, and geochemically-dependent, as well as dictated by their in-house and regulatory dictated monitoring and reporting requirements. I don't know if KAPL still operates their system or if they have a new and improved version, but if you cannot find any off-the-shelf systems that can be customized for your client, you might try to contact the environmental folks at KAPL who could provide the design and operations details of their system. IF THERE ARE ANY KAPL-ites READING THIS, and Naval Reactors allows it, you might want to contact John Rich at 312-269-3768 and help him out. Good luck, John. Carl Ed Johnson Health Physicist/Consultant Albuqerque, New Mexico 505-463-6685 cejjr56 at gmail.com On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > Hi all, > > We're working with a client that has had (is having) problems with the off > line liquid effluent monitor. These are the usual issues with final > effluent water, it has some silt, organic material (bio-fouling), and it's > a high flow system that makes it difficult to get a representative sample. > > So, the questions are: > 1. Does anybody have some good ideas on how to cope with this sample > (e.g., high flow sample pump and then take a sample of a sample)? > 2.How do you cope with these off line sample problems? > 3. Has anybody gone to composite raw sampler followed by lab analysis? > > Thanx in advance - -jmr > > > John Rich > 312-269-3768 > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Wed Dec 21 11:58:28 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:58:28 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy In-Reply-To: References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21F5@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC2261@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Hi John, I found other copies of ICRP but not No. 23. I expect that someone on Radsafe will have a copy handy and provide you with the contents info. Happy Holidays to all of my Radsafe colleagues! Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:24 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy Thanks Sandy I'm interested because I wrote papers in the '70's and '80's and never heard of it. I've lost my copy of ICRP Pub. 23 so I can't see if it was in there. John -----Original Message----- From: Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:21 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] iodine allergy Found this one site (accuracy unknown): http://www.medicalhistorycard.com/iodine-allergy.html Iodine Allergies - Common Medical Allergic Reactions Iodine is injected into the bloodstream as a contrast media so that blood vessels can appear in X-rays. About three to twelve percent of people react to iodine. Symptoms may include nausea, hives, vomiting, and dizziness. One out of every thousand people suffers anaphylaxis as a result of iodine injections. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:37 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Sandy and Patricia It is my understanding that we (and mammals) all need iodine to live. Books have been written about this! Our thyroid is the reservoir that stores it and it has a limited capacity. If we what to decrease the amount of radioactive iodine that is "taken up" we give large amount stable iodine before the exposure because the thyroid will then be "full" and can not take in any more. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all radsafers. Sandy. Can you give a reference for "individuals who are allergic to iodine"? John Johnson Vancouver BBC. -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:01 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Unless one applies a "population dose" model for iodine exposure. In this model, you would take the amount of iodine consumed by the entire population, including people who through induced but misguided panic consumed large quantities of KI (often purchased online at enormously inflated prices). Then divide by the number of people, and assume that everyone received the same amount, even though that clearly wasn't the case. Then, to be "conservative" (which in this case has an undefined meaning, but is used to imply "better"), one can assume that more people are allergic to iodine than the statistics would support, that their reactions are both more sever and less well characterized than is normally believed (indeed, mimicking conditions that are usually attributed to other things, and were pre-existing), and that there is a conspiracy to hide all this. Or you could just make it up. Whatever. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:40 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths Patricia, While there are individuals who are allergic to iodine, I would not expect that KI pills have anything to do with the asinine conclusions reported about 14,000 deaths. Perhaps this was addressed but I don't recall any discussion that states a significant amount of KI pills were distributed to the population. Unless the pills were distributed within a specific amount of hours prior to the intake of I-131, the thyroid would have been not been protected by the KI, and of course the individuals who are allergic would not have been as affected. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of patricia lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:18 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] 14000 deaths any chance there were deaths or complications from taking iodine tablets or other preventative measures? -- Patricia Lewis Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine Mine Motel PO Box 67 Boulder MT 59632 406 225-3383 (ofc) 888 890-5860 (ofc toll free) Opt In Newsletter: http://tinyletter.com/RadonMine Website: http ://www.radonmine.com *"like" us on Facebook !* _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From cejjr56 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 12:18:13 2011 From: cejjr56 at gmail.com (Ed Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:18:13 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] off-line liquid effluent monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P.S. John, Sorry, I realized that you might not be looking to replace the client's system, but only improve it. To clarify, if excessive silt is a problem and the concern is not getting a representative sample of it and/or that it and the bio material are fouling the pump, one solution is to create a diversion channel from the main effluent flow without reducing the turbulence (which keeps the sediments suspended) and filter the sediments upstream of the sample pump. Both the filter and the collected water sample would then be analyzed to get total concentrations and the results scaled up to the total effluent flow rate. Regarding the sample size, from your post it seems that the sample pump itself has a high flow rate, perhaps collecting a sample volume that is too large for practical collection and analysis (?). To be analyzed, large sample volumes can be boiled down to a manageable size, but you have to ensure that you are still capturing volatiles in your analysis (labor intensive and not fun). Instead, the system may need modification to divert a portion of the effluent stream, the key consideration being that the diverted flow is representative of the total. At KAPL, the collected samples were composited for analysis. If you use that approach,* *I believe you need to apply the right statistical tools to correctly report deviation from the mean in order to capture the inherent errors not only from the analyses, but also from the compositing process. Again, the folks at KAPL might be able to help, even though they are "competitors." After all, we worked in support of the same nuclear Navy, right?! Back at you :) Carl Ed Johnson Health Physicist/Consultant Albuqerque, New Mexico 505-463-6685 cejjr56 at gmail.com On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > Hi all, > > We're working with a client that has had (is having) problems with the off > line liquid effluent monitor. These are the usual issues with final > effluent water, it has some silt, organic material (bio-fouling), and it's > a high flow system that makes it difficult to get a representative sample. > > So, the questions are: > 1. Does anybody have some good ideas on how to cope with this sample > (e.g., high flow sample pump and then take a sample of a sample)? > 2.How do you cope with these off line sample problems? > 3. Has anybody gone to composite raw sampler followed by lab analysis? > > Thanx in advance - -jmr > > > John Rich > 312-269-3768 > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From sperle at mirion.com Wed Dec 21 17:26:36 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:26:36 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Japan issues 30 to 40 year plan to scrap reactors Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC22FB@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> Tokyo (CNN) -- Japanese officials unveiled a decades-long plan Wednesday to decommission the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, where reactor cooling systems failed after the country's devastating earthquake and tsunami in March. The Japanese government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. said the work schedule would proceed over three or four decades to scrap the four crippled reactors at the site. There are three phases, according to the plan. It will begin with the removal of nuclear fuel in spent fuel pools within two years. That task is scheduled to be completed within 10 years. The plan also calls for commencing the removal of fuel debris within 10 years with the goal of completing that work in 20 to 25 years. The reactors will be completely decommissioned in 30 to 40 years, according to the plan. The plume of radioactive particles that spewed from Fukushima Daiichi displaced about 80,000 people who live within a 20-kilometers (12.5 mile) radius of the plant, as well as residents of one village as far as 40 kilometers to the northwest. The earthquake and tsunami killed more than 15,000 people in northeastern Japan. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 22:09:22 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:09:22 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> Message-ID: Great photo! And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From ksparth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 22 02:01:15 2011 From: ksparth at yahoo.co.uk (parthasarathy k s) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:01:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the International Journal for Health Services!! In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mike, Can you enlighten me on the Journal called " International Journal of Health Services". It? publishes papers which appears to be bogus such as the the one the list members talked about recently. It highlighted increased deaths in USA post Fukushima. In 2004, the journal published results of "studies" in the high background radiation areas of India. I know one of the authors of the paper. He is a well-known anti nuclear activists Any information on this journal!! Regards Parthasarathy ________________________________ From: "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2011, 23:15 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation Aside from the implications for LNT, I would like to point out that the researcher were taking time-lapse images of things going on on DNA.? How cool is that? -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation For the full article please see http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2011/12/20/low-dose-radiation/ ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 1:58:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 04:02:57 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:02:57 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Mothers_are_tu?= =?windows-1252?q?rning_out_to_be_a_threat_to_the_nuclear_industry?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_future?= In-Reply-To: <4114830.20609.0@wordpress.com> References: <4114830.20609.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Too bad that they do not comment upon the amount of disinformation that has been bombarding these mothers to make them fear for their children.? Should false and misleading information win the day?? I certainly hope not, but there is a need to educate and to educate more effectively using all of the new media and aiming at the general public, not just the scientifically literate. Roger Helbig Anyone who would like to comment directly to Ms Macpherson, her e-mail is christinamacpherson at gmail.com - perhaps she can be educated, but I have my doubts since she is a very dedicated anti-nuke and does not welcome facts that oppose her viewpoint Mothers are turning out to be a threat to the nuclear industry?s?future by Christina MacPherson The leadership of women in civic movements is also unprecedented. Mothers have been leading the demonstrations, with many of them coming out for the first time to gain sympathy and support for their campaign to prevent exposing children to the dangers of radiation?.. Parliamentarian Mizuho Fukushima, one of Japan?s leading female politicians and an active participant in the anti-nuclear demonstrations, told IPS that the protests against nuclear power are not going to die down. Mothers Rise Against Nuclear Power ,?IPS News, By Suvendrini Kakuchi TOKYO, Dec 22, 2011 ?-?Japan?s nuclear power industry, which once ignored opposition, now finds its existence threatened by women angered by official opaqueness on radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant after it was struck by an earthquake- driven tsunami on Mar. 11. ?Mothers are at the forefront of various grassroots movements that are working together to stop the operation of all nuclear plants in Japan from 2012,? Aileen Miyoko Smith, head of Green Action, a non- governmental organisation (NGO) that promotes renewable energy told IPS. Read more of this post Christina MacPherson | December 22, 2011 at 9:31 am | Categories: Japan, women | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mp Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/22/mothers-are-turning-out-to-be-a-threat-to-the-nuclear-industrys-future/ From GRMarshall at philotechnics.com Thu Dec 22 09:36:39 2011 From: GRMarshall at philotechnics.com (Glenn R. Marshall) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:36:39 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> Message-ID: <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... Glenn Marshall, CHP -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Great photo! And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Thu Dec 22 10:27:06 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:27:06 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Mothers_are_tu?= =?windows-1252?q?rning_out_to_be_a_threat_to_the_nuclear_industry_=92s_fu?= =?windows-1252?q?ture?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20111222172813.ASXD5.46329.root@viefep21.chello.at> Roger, Don't you know, how journals catch their "quotas"? They have to write stories (whether true or not) to satisfy their readers. Females are approximately 50% of their readers (of course). Females can be best caught by their "female instincts", which are directed mostly to their offsprings. (Good questions, why are males not similarily viewed as responsible for their offsprings? I spent several years of fighting to "legally" have my three children living with me. They already were living with me for years before the courts decision! They have developed excellentely in the meantime. The "mother instinct" seems to be a very good argument in any nuclear debate - it is efficient for the anti-nuclears. Whether it is correct or not is not the question for the mass media. Best regards, Franz ---- Roger Helbig schrieb: > Too bad that they do not comment upon the amount of disinformation > that has been bombarding these mothers to make them fear for their > children.? Should false and misleading information win the day?? I > certainly hope not, but there is a need to educate and to educate more > effectively using all of the new media and aiming at the general > public, not just the scientifically literate. > > Roger Helbig > > Anyone who would like to comment directly to Ms Macpherson, her e-mail > is christinamacpherson at gmail.com - perhaps she can be educated, but I > have my doubts since she is a very dedicated anti-nuke and does not > welcome facts that oppose her viewpoint > > Mothers are turning out to be a threat to the nuclear industry?s?future > > by Christina MacPherson > The leadership of women in civic movements is also unprecedented. > Mothers have been leading the demonstrations, with many of them coming > out for the first time to gain sympathy and support for their campaign > to prevent exposing children to the dangers of radiation?.. > Parliamentarian Mizuho Fukushima, one of Japan?s leading female > politicians and an active participant in the anti-nuclear > demonstrations, told IPS that the protests against nuclear power are > not going to die down. > > Mothers Rise Against Nuclear Power ,?IPS News, By Suvendrini Kakuchi > TOKYO, Dec 22, 2011 ?-?Japan?s nuclear power industry, which once > ignored opposition, now finds its existence threatened by women > angered by official opaqueness on radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi > nuclear plant after it was struck by an earthquake- driven tsunami on > Mar. 11. > > ?Mothers are at the forefront of various grassroots movements that are > working together to stop the operation of all nuclear plants in Japan > from 2012,? Aileen Miyoko Smith, head of Green Action, a non- > governmental organisation (NGO) that promotes renewable energy told > IPS. Read more of this post > > Christina MacPherson | December 22, 2011 at 9:31 am | Categories: > Japan, women | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mp > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/22/mothers-are-turning-out-to-be-a-threat-to-the-nuclear-industrys-future/ > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Thu Dec 22 10:38:11 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:38:11 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> Message-ID: <20111222173834.3BRLF.46353.root@viefep21.chello.at> ---- "Glenn R. Marshall" schrieb: > Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... > > Glenn Marshall, CHP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' > Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site > > Great photo! > > And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. > > I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and > 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. > The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... > > I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! > > http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf > pp.289-315 > > Dan ii > > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site > > The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. > > Stewart Farber > SAFarber at optonline.net > www.farber-medical.com > > > ============= > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site > > Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. > > http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 > GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf > > Erik C. Nielsen > Health Physicist > USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory > 540 South Morris Ave. > Montgomery, AL 36115 > Phone 334-270-3475 > Fax 334-270-3454 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Thu Dec 22 11:55:27 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:55:27 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the InternationalJournal for Health Services!! In-Reply-To: <1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Hi, Parthasarathy. I am not familiar with the Journal, but a quick look at the web page shows they are highlighting a "study" by Mangano, who is a cherry-picker from way back. If I were on the board of a journal, I would be inclined to dismiss his work out of hand, so conversely I would have to be suspect of any journal that would publish his work. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of parthasarathy k s Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 12:01 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the InternationalJournal for Health Services!! Mike, Can you enlighten me on the Journal called " International Journal of Health Services". It? publishes papers which appears to be bogus such as the the one the list members talked about recently. It highlighted increased deaths in USA post Fukushima. In 2004, the journal published results of "studies" in the high background radiation areas of India. I know one of the authors of the paper. He is a well-known anti nuclear activists Any information on this journal!! Regards Parthasarathy ________________________________ From: "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2011, 23:15 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation Aside from the implications for LNT, I would like to point out that the researcher were taking time-lapse images of things going on on DNA.? How cool is that? -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation For the full article please see http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2011/12/20/low-dose-radiation/ ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 1:58:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From alstonchris at netscape.net Thu Dec 22 12:56:58 2011 From: alstonchris at netscape.net (alstonchris at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:56:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the InternationalJournal for Health Services!! In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local><1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com><37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl><1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8B@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <8CE8EF29D743C54-844-47F5@webmail-d137.sysops.aol.com> Hi Guys Seems to me that the fast and dirty way to take the measure of the quality of a journal is to ask what the sponsoring institution is, and who is on the board of reviewing editors. E.g, Science is published by the AAAS, and the roster of reviewing editors reads like a short list of the most distinguished scientists in the world. Happy Holidays cja -----Original Message----- From: Brennan, Mike (DOH) (DOH) To: parthasarathy k s ; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Thu, Dec 22, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the InternationalJournal for Health Services!! Hi, Parthasarathy. I am not familiar with the Journal, but a quick look at the web page shows they are highlighting a "study" by Mangano, who is a cherry-picker from way back. If I were on the board of a journal, I would be inclined to dismiss his work out of hand, so conversely I would have to be suspect of any journal that would publish his work. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of parthasarathy k s Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 12:01 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the InternationalJournal for Health Services!! Mike, Can you enlighten me on the Journal called " International Journal of Health Services". It publishes papers which appears to be bogus such as the the one the list members talked about recently. It highlighted increased deaths in USA post Fukushima. In 2004, the journal published results of "studies" in the high background radiation areas of India. I know one of the authors of the paper. He is a well-known anti nuclear activists Any information on this journal!! Regards Parthasarathy ________________________________ From: "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2011, 23:15 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation Aside from the implications for LNT, I would like to point out that the researcher were taking time-lapse images of things going on on DNA. How cool is that? -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:33 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts ofLow Dose Radiation For the full article please see http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2011/12/20/low-dose-radiation/ Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Perle, Sandy" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 1:58:15 PM Subject: [ RadSafe ] Berkeley Lab News Release: New Take on Impacts of Low Dose Radiation Very interesting study conducted at Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), through a combination of time-lapse live imaging and mathematical modeling of a special line of human breast cells, have found evidence to suggest that for low dose levels of ionizing radiation, cancer risks may not be directly proportional to dose. This contradicts the standard model for predicting biological damage from ionizing radiation - the linear-no-threshold hypothesis or LNT - which holds that risk is directly proportional to dose at all levels of irradiation. "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses," says Mina Bissell, a world-renowned breast cancer researcher with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division. "This non-linear DNA damage response casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive." Bissell was part of a study led by Sylvain Costes, a biophysicist also with Berkeley Lab's Life Sciences Division, in which DNA damage response to low dose radiation was characterized simultaneously across both time and dose levels. This was done by measuring the number of RIF, for "radiation induced foci," which are aggregations of proteins that repair double strand breaks, meaning the DNA double helix is completely severed. "We hypothesize that contrary to what has long been thought, double strand breaks are not static entities but will rapidly cluster into preferred regions of the nucleus we call DNA repair centers as radiation exposure increases," says Costes. "As a result of this clustering, a single RIF may reflect a center where multiple double strand breaks are rejoined. Such multiple repair activity increases the risks of broken DNA strands being incorrectly rejoined and that can lead to cancer." Costes and Bissell have published the results of their study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper titled "Evidence for formation of DNA repair centers and dose-response nonlinearity in human cells." Also co-authoring the paper were Teresa Neumaier, Joel Swenson, Christopher Pham, Aris Polyzos, Alvin Lo, PoAn Yang, Jane Dyball, Aroumougame Asaithamby, David Chen and Stefan Thalhammer. The authors believe their study to be the first to report the clustering of DNA double strand breaks and the formation of DNA repair centers in human cells. The movement of the double strand breaks across relatively large distances of up to two microns led to more intensely active but fewer RIF. For example, 15 RIF per gray (Gy) were observed after exposure to two Gy of radiation, compared to approximately 64 RIF/Gy after exposure to 0.1Gy. One Gy equals one joule of ionizing radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of human tissue. A typical mammogram exposes a patient to about 0.01Gy. Corresponding author Costes says the DNA repair centers may be a logical product of evolution. "Humans evolved in an environment with very low levels of ionizing radiation, which makes it unlikely that a cell would suffer more than one double strand break at any given time," he says. "A DNA repair center would seem to be an optimal way to deal with such sparse damage. It is like taking a broken car to a garage where all the equipment for repairs is available rather than to a random location with limited resources." However, when cells are exposed to ionizing radiation doses large enough to cause multiple double strand breaks at once, DNA repair centers become overwhelmed and the number of incorrect rejoinings of double strand breaks increases. "It is the same as when dozens of broken cars are brought to the same garage at once, the quality of repair is likely to suffer," Costes says. The link between exposure to ionizing radiation and DNA damage that can give rise to cancerous cells is well-established. However, the standards for cancer risks have been based on data collected from survivors of the atomic bomb blasts in Japan during World War II. The LNT model was developed to extrapolate low dose cancer risk from high dose exposure because changes in cancer incidence following low dose irradiation are too small to be measurable. Extrapolation was done on a linear scale in accordance with certain assumptions and the laws of physics. "Assuming that the human genome is a target of constant size, physics predicts DNA damage response will be proportional to dose leading to a linear scale," Costes explains. "Epidemiological data from the survivors of the atomic bombs was found to be in agreement with this hypothesis and showed that cancer incidence increases with an increase in ionizing radiation dose above 0.1 Gy. Below such dose, the picture is not clear." Previous studies failed to detect the clustering of double break strands and the formation of DNA repair centers because they were based on single-time or single-dose measurements of RIF at a discrete time after the initial exposure to ionizing radiation. This yields a net number of RIF that does not account for RIF that have not yet appeared or RIF that have already made repairs and disappeared. The time-lapse imaging used by Costes, Bissell and their co-authors showed that RIF formation continues to occur well beyond the initial radiation exposure and after earlier repair issues have been resolved. Time-lapse imaging also indicates that double strand break clustering takes place before any RIF are formed. "We hypothesize that double strand break clustering occurs rapidly after exposure to ionizing radiation and that RIF formation reflects the repair machinery put in place around a single cluster of double strand breaks," Costes says. "Our results provide a more accurate model of RIF dose response, and underscore fundamental concerns about static image data analysis in the dynamic environment of the living cell." Previous studies also mostly involved fibroblast cells whereas Costes, Bissell and their colleagues examined epithelial cells, specifically an immortalized human breast cell line known as MCF10A, which has a much higher background of RIF than fibroblasts, even without ionizing irradiation. To compensate for this higher background, Costes developed a mathematical method that enables background to be corrected for on a per- nucleus basis in unirradiated cells. Still the use of a special line of immortalized breast cells is an issue that Costes and his colleagues plan to address. "We are now looking at primary breast epithelial cells that have been removed from healthy donors to determine if our results are repeated beyond just a single cell line and under more realistic physiological conditions," Costes says. "We'd also like to know if our findings hold true for fibroblasts as well as epithelial cells. Also, we'd like to know if double strand break clustering is the result of a random coalescence or if there is an active transport mechanism that moves these double strand breaks towards pre-existing DNA repair centers." Working in collaboration with Rafael Gomez-Sjoberg of Berkeley Lab's Engineering Division, Costes and his group are also developing a special microfluidics lab-on-a-chip device that is integrated into an X-ray microbeam. The goal is to provide a means by which cells can be kept in a controlled microenvironment while being irradiated with multiple doses. This microfluidic array will be used to characterize DNA damage response in breast and blood cells collected from human donors. "By characterizing DNA damage response in cells from many different human donors," Costes says, "we should be able to determine the variation across humans and gain a better understanding of how sensitivity to DNA damage from ionizing radiation might vary from individual to individual." This research was supported by the DOE Office of Science. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ ?Protecting people, property and the environment? _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From brees at lanl.gov Thu Dec 22 13:02:57 2011 From: brees at lanl.gov (Rees, Brian G) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:02:57 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> Message-ID: So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? It behooves us to know... That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have been unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the same. But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? Brian Rees -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... Glenn Marshall, CHP -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Great photo! And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From royherren2005 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 13:31:37 2011 From: royherren2005 at yahoo.com (ROY HERREN) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:31:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> Message-ID: <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or Apples?? Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating system. ?Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Rees, Brian G" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? It behooves us to know... That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have been unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the same.? But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? Brian Rees -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... Glenn Marshall, CHP -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Great photo!? And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain.? I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags.? I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land.? Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough).? I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front).? Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming.? And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box!? Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov Thu Dec 22 13:44:14 2011 From: donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov (Mercado, Donald Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC]) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:44:14 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site In-Reply-To: <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> , <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> Gentlemen, Please reign in your comments. We don't want to be saddled with these decisions. I say neigh to any more these ass - i - nine comments or I'll be forced to post more whithering protests! %^) Donald Mercado, Health Physicist ________________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN [royherren2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:31 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or Apples? Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating system. Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Rees, Brian G" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? It behooves us to know... That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have been unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the same. But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? Brian Rees -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... Glenn Marshall, CHP -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Great photo! And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sperle at mirion.com Thu Dec 22 13:47:14 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:47:14 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Regulators approve nuclear reactor design they say is safe Message-ID: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7D69F345@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> WASHINGTON - Federal regulators have approved a nuclear reactor designed by Westinghouse Electric that could power the first nuclear plants built from scratch in this country in more than three decades. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission unanimously approved the AP1000 reactor Thursday. The certification, effective immediately, will be valid for 15 years. NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko said the newly approved design would ensure safety through simplified, passive security functions and other features. He said plants using the design could withstand damage from an airplane crash without significant release of radioactive materials - an issue that gained attention after the 2001 terrorist attacks. Approval of the design is a major step forward for utility companies in Georgia, Florida and the Carolinas that have billions of dollars riding on plans to build AP1000 reactors in the Southeast. Without NRC approval, the utilities could not have gotten a license to build their plants. Regulators approve nuclear reactor design they say is safe Federal officials approved an earlier version of the AP1000 reactor in 2006, but it was never built in the United States. Four AP1000 reactors are now under construction in China. Aris Candris, Westinghouse president and CEO, said the road to receiving design certification of the AP1000 "has been long and sometimes arduous." The NRC vote brings the U.S "one step closer to constructing AP1000 units and putting thousands to work to ultimately provide future generations with safe, clean and reliable electricity," he said. Utilities in Georgia and South Carolina have been waiting for the design certification so they can move ahead with applications to build two reactors in each state. Atlanta-based Southern Co. applied to build the first two AP1000 reactors at Plant Vogtle near Augusta, Ga. The $14 billion effort is the pilot project for the new reactor and a major test of whether the industry can build nuclear plants without the delays and cost overruns that plagued building years ago. President Barack Obama's administration has offered the project $8 billion in federal loan guarantees as part of its pledge to expand nuclear power. Close on its heels is SCANA Corp., which is also seeking permission to build two reactors at an existing site in Jenkinsville, S.C. Other applications that use the AP1000 design include two plants in Florida, one and South Carolina and another in North Carolina. Each application is for two reactors. Even with the design certification, it remains unclear when the Vogtle reactors will receive final approval - a major concern for Southern Co. since any delays could increase the cost of the project. The biggest difference between the AP1000 and existing reactors is in the safety systems, including a massive water tank on top of its cylindrical concrete-and-steel shielding building. In case of an accident, water would flow down and cool the steel container that holds critical parts of the reactor - including its hot, radioactive nuclear fuel. An NRC taskforce examining the nuclear crisis in Japan said licensing for the AP1000 should go forward because it would be better equipped to deal with a prolonged loss of power - the problem that doomed the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant. Marilyn Kray, president of NuStart Energy Development, a nuclear industry consortium that has worked to demonstrate the design's effectiveness, said she was pleased to see the design move forward. "The AP1000 is the reactor design that will set the foundation for the next generation of nuclear plants in the U.S.," Kray said. A nuclear watchdog group called the vote disappointing, saying the NRC should have done a new analysis in the wake of the Japan crisis, which occurred after a March 11 tsunami sent three reactors at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant into meltdowns in the worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl in 1986. A new study could have helped identify and correct any vulnerabilities based on lessons learned from Fukushima, said Edwin Lyman, a senior scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists. "It would be more efficient and cost-effective to address problems that could be corrected at the design stage now, before any new plants are constructed," Lyman said. After plants are built, any new safety requirements would have to be addressed through costly retrofits and other actions, Lyman said, adding that he was "far from convinced" that the AP1000's passive safety features would be effective in coping with severe accidents. Under existing rules, a reactor design that commissioners have voted to approve must be published in the Federal Register for 30 days before it is legally effective. Southern Co. officials asked the NRC to make the design effective immediately after the vote, a request that was granted. Publication in the Federal Register is expected by Jan. 5. ----------------------------------- Sander C.?Perle? President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division? 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 ? +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) ? Mirion Technologies:?http://www.mirion.com/ "Protecting people, property and the environment" From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Thu Dec 22 14:51:15 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:51:15 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <20111222215115.WT1MV.46948.root@viefep21.chello.at> Donald, After all the many silly comments of a certain Professor Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. etc. the comments you criticize were refreshing. I liked them. If you did not - just skip them. You write "we don't want to". Who is "we"??? Plural majestatis? Or a group of whom? You "threaten" to "be forced to ..." - please do so, you will be able to read the reactions of RADSAFErs. Best regards, Franz ?---- "Mercado schrieb: > Gentlemen, > > Please reign in your comments. We don't want to be saddled with these decisions. I say neigh to any more these ass - i - nine comments or I'll be forced to post more whithering protests! %^) > ju > Donald Mercado, Health Physicist > ________________________________________ > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN [royherren2005 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:31 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site > > What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or > Apples? Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating system. > > Roy Herren > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Rees, Brian G" > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? > It behooves us to know... > > That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have been > unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet > above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the > same. But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? > > > Brian Rees > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... > > Glenn Marshall, CHP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' > Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > Great photo! > > And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several > hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following > Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about > dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the > leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy > fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. > > I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the > San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and > 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is > slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. > The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature > (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my > soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the > mineralogy of the soils involved... > > I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation > wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, > of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! > > http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf > pp.289-315 > > Dan ii > > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified > Geiger-muler [GM] detector. > > > Stewart Farber > SAFarber at optonline.net > www.farber-medical.com > > > ============= > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of > Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site > > Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult > situation. > > http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 > GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf > > Erik C. Nielsen > Health Physicist > USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory > 540 South Morris Ave. > Montgomery, AL 36115 > Phone 334-270-3475 > Fax 334-270-3454 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 14:59:54 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan W McCarn) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:59:54 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net><597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int>, <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> Dear Group: I am spurred to answer, but you seem to be beating a dead horse, and trotting-out the same old manure! I've had night-mares over this problem, but you say neigh to my suggestion. You have been saddled with this for decades - unbridled, I could make progress. The mane issue is merely a shadow in the Mist. Franz, you are one of the few who understand when I honestly say that the Mist was so thick, I must shovel it! And no truer words were every sung, but standing next to my horse to hear the strains of that song, "I get Misty whenever you're near"... "And I feel like I'm clinging to your mane, I cannot refrain, I get misty jut holding your rein"... Hay! It could be worse. Comment from dressage judge: "Airs above the ground are best left to the Spanish Riding School" Dan ii P.S. Def. "Mist" - German == Horse manure -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Mercado, Donald Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 12:44 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site Gentlemen, Please reign in your comments. We don't want to be saddled with these decisions. I say neigh to any more these ass - i - nine comments or I'll be forced to post more whithering protests! %^) Donald Mercado, Health Physicist ________________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN [royherren2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:31 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or Apples? Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating system. Roy Herren ________________________________ From: "Rees, Brian G" To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? It behooves us to know... That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have been unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the same. But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? Brian Rees -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... Glenn Marshall, CHP -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Great photo! And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal about dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in the San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse is slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium feature (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the mineralogy of the soils involved... I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume irrigation wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. And, of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf pp.289-315 Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a modified Geiger-muler [GM] detector. Stewart Farber SAFarber at optonline.net www.farber-medical.com ============= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation Site Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a difficult situation. http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf Erik C. Nielsen Health Physicist USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory 540 South Morris Ave. Montgomery, AL 36115 Phone 334-270-3475 Fax 334-270-3454 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Thu Dec 22 16:06:15 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:06:15 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> Message-ID: <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> This thread shows that the egg nog must be flowing freely already. Happy Holidays, Jeff On Dec 22, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: > Dear Group: > > I am spurred to answer, but you seem to be beating a dead horse, and > trotting-out the same old manure! I've had night-mares over this problem, > but you say neigh to my suggestion. You have been saddled with this for > decades - unbridled, I could make progress. The mane issue is merely a > shadow in the Mist. Franz, you are one of the few who understand when I > honestly say that the Mist was so thick, I must shovel it! And no truer > words were every sung, but standing next to my horse to hear the strains of > that song, "I get Misty whenever you're near"... "And I feel like I'm > clinging to your mane, I cannot refrain, I get misty jut holding your > rein"... > > Hay! It could be worse. Comment from dressage judge: "Airs above the > ground are best left to the Spanish Riding School" > > Dan ii > > P.S. Def. "Mist" - German == Horse manure > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Mercado, Donald > Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC] > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 12:44 > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation > Site > > Gentlemen, > > Please reign in your comments. We don't want to be saddled with these > decisions. I say neigh to any more these ass - i - nine comments or I'll be > forced to post more whithering protests! %^) > > Donald Mercado, Health Physicist > ________________________________________ > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN > [royherren2005 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:31 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or > Apples? Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating > system. > > Roy Herren > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Rees, Brian G" > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? > It behooves us to know... > > That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have > been > unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet > above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the > same. But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? > > > Brian Rees > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... > > Glenn Marshall, CHP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' > Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > Great photo! > > And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. I covered several > hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following > Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. I learned a great deal > about > dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the > leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy > fields or farmed land. Altogether, a valuable experience. > > I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in > the > San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and > 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse > is > slow enough). I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. > The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium > feature > (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). Hopefully, this will inform my > soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the > mineralogy of the soils involved... > > I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume > irrigation > wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. > And, > of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! > > http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf > pp.289-315 > > Dan ii > > -- > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 > To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a > modified > Geiger-muler [GM] detector. > > > Stewart Farber > SAFarber at optonline.net > www.farber-medical.com > > > ============= > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of > Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation > Site > > Sometimes you got to think outside the box! Creative solution to a > difficult > situation. > > http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 > GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf > > Erik C. Nielsen > Health Physicist > USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory > 540 South Morris Ave. > Montgomery, AL 36115 > Phone 334-270-3475 > Fax 334-270-3454 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From hreynolds at energysolutions.com Thu Dec 22 16:19:46 2011 From: hreynolds at energysolutions.com (Harry Reynolds) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:19:46 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> Message-ID: Jeff I agree. I think Franz needs a good measure of it to lubricate his sense of humour enough to see when folks are just 'horsing' - I mean 'muling around'!! Merry Christmas to All -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Terry Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:06 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site This thread shows that the egg nog must be flowing freely already. Happy Holidays, Jeff nsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From hotgreenchile at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 17:29:07 2011 From: hotgreenchile at gmail.com (Dan McCarn) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:29:07 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> Message-ID: My horse is so hot... I have to wear NOMEX when riding... And anyway, it hasbetter radiation characteristics... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex- Show quoted text - On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Jeff Terry wrote: > This thread shows that the egg nog must be flowing freely already. > > Happy Holidays, > > Jeff > > On Dec 22, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: > >> Dear Group: >> >> I am spurred to answer, but you seem to be beating a dead horse, and >> trotting-out the same old manure! ?I've had night-mares over this problem, >> but you say neigh to my suggestion. You have been saddled with this for >> decades - unbridled, I could make progress. The mane issue is merely a >> shadow in the Mist. Franz, you are one of the few who understand when I >> honestly say that the Mist was so thick, I must shovel it! ?And no truer >> words were every sung, but standing next to my horse to hear the strains of >> that song, "I get Misty whenever you're near"... "And I feel like I'm >> clinging to your mane, I cannot refrain, I get misty jut holding your >> rein"... >> >> Hay! ?It could be worse. ?Comment from dressage judge: "Airs above the >> ground are best left to the Spanish Riding School" >> >> Dan ii >> >> P.S. Def. "Mist" - German == Horse manure >> -- >> Dan W McCarn, Geologist >> 108 Sherwood Blvd >> Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 >> +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) >> +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) >> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Mercado, Donald >> Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC] >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 12:44 >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation >> Site >> >> Gentlemen, >> >> Please reign in your comments. We don't want to be saddled with these >> decisions. I say neigh to any more these ass - i - nine comments or I'll be >> forced to post more whithering protests! %^) >> >> Donald Mercado, Health Physicist >> ________________________________________ >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of ROY HERREN >> [royherren2005 at yahoo.com] >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:31 AM >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> What do you suppose is the Mule's preferred operating system, Windows or >> Apples? ?Somehow I suspect that Mules work best on an Apple operating >> system. >> >> Roy Herren >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Rees, Brian G" >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> >> Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 11:02:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> So what is the contamination limit for a mule hide??? >> It behooves us to know... >> >> That said, (and I'm sure there will be folks that will say it should have >> been >> unsaid!), there are films that show respirators on horses for Soviet >> above-ground testing at the Semipalatinsk Test Site... the Chinese did the >> same. ?But no PC's. Could be an issue with overheating?? >> >> >> Brian Rees >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Glenn R. Marshall >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:37 AM >> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> Of course, a better photo would be of a mule wearing Tyvek....... >> >> Glenn Marshall, CHP >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn >> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:09 PM >> To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList' >> Cc: Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> Great photo! >> >> And a great reason to use an equine in difficult terrain. ?I covered several >> hundred kilometers in Northern Austria on my old horse, Boo, following >> Chernobyl, scintillation counter in my saddlebags. ?I learned a great deal >> about >> dry and wet deposition of radionuclides (R/Ns) and about how R/Ns coat the >> leaves in the forest providing significantly more radiation than in grassy >> fields or farmed land. ?Altogether, a valuable experience. >> >> I have a project in mind for one of my horses next spring riding fields in >> the >> San Luis Valley in Southern Colorado with a 3x3" NaI(Tl) crystal and >> 1024 channel spectrometer (if the sample rate is high enough, or the horse >> is >> slow enough). ?I'll be collecting data with an ADC and GPS on a laptop. >> The intent is to study radium deposition in soils proximal to a uranium >> feature >> (regional redox-controlled, roll-front). ?Hopefully, this will inform my >> soil-sampling plan. And, of course, I will be looking in detail at the >> mineralogy of the soils involved... >> >> I suspect that uranium / radium was redistributed from high-volume >> irrigation >> wells near the redox front over the last 100 years of irrigated farming. >> And, >> of course, I'll be looking to contract for 500 bales of good horse hay! >> >> http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1396_web.pdf >> pp.289-315 >> >> Dan ii >> >> -- >> Dan W McCarn, Geologist >> 108 Sherwood Blvd >> Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 >> +1-505-672-2014 (Home - New Mexico) >> +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) >> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber >> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 08:03 >> To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> The procedure described isn't all that unusual. They're simply using a >> modified >> Geiger-muler [GM] detector. >> >> >> Stewart Farber >> SAFarber at optonline.net >> www.farber-medical.com >> >> >> ============= >> -----Original Message----- >> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of >> Nielsen.Erik at epamail.epa.gov >> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:17 AM >> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of California Radiation >> Site >> >> Sometimes you got to think outside the box! ?Creative solution to a >> difficult >> situation. >> >> http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/MULES%20CONTRIBUTE%20BY%20 >> GREGG%20DEMPSEY.pdf >> >> Erik C. Nielsen >> Health Physicist >> USEPA, National Air and Radiation Environmental Laboratory >> 540 South Morris Ave. >> Montgomery, AL 36115 >> Phone 334-270-3475 >> Fax 334-270-3454 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >> RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >> http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Dan ii -- Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home ? New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com From maurysis at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 22 18:15:25 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:15:25 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mules Contribute to Cleanup of CaliforniaRadiation Site In-Reply-To: References: <007501ccbff1$94bd28b0$be377a10$@net> <597B927DD5BB0840957B5A8D9FBC8FDD800D85FAED@TNOR-FPE3.philotechnics.int> <1324582297.77430.YahooMailRC@web80201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE2106CF883502@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> <4BCEDAB967564630B2DC1C6259AD3FB8@DocHolidayII> <10A2D509-FB52-43FC-8112-1492199584A0@iit.edu> Message-ID: <4EF3C81D.3080104@peoplepc.com> Merry Egg Nog and truly warm, deeply loving Happy Christmas wishes to all. Maury&Dog ========================== On 12/22/2011 5:29 PM, Dan McCarn wrote: > My horse is so hot... I have to wear NOMEX when riding... And anyway, > it hasbetter radiation characteristics... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex- Show quoted text - > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Jeff Terry wrote: >> This thread shows that the egg nog must be flowing freely already. >> >> Happy Holidays, >> >> Jeff >> >> On Dec 22, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Dan W McCarn wrote: ------------------------------snipped-------------------------- From sjd at swcp.com Thu Dec 22 19:47:14 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:47:14 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Mangano contradicts himself on Fukushima Message-ID: <201112230147.pBN1l6Y5050917@ame8.swcp.com> Dec. 22 http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2011/12/joseph-mangano-contradicts-his-own.html Steven Dapra From sjd at swcp.com Thu Dec 22 20:11:56 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:11:56 -0700 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any information on the credibility of the International Journal for Health Services!! In-Reply-To: <1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C0@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <5326C9CB0E90714DA70EE1AD39296DFE0E7CEC21C8@MIRION-EXCH-HQ.mirion.local> <1324452776.60651.YahooMailRC@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B8A@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <1324540875.79510.YahooMailNeo@web29501.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201112230211.pBN2BmLx025987@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 22 This link is to Mangano and Sherman's "paper" in the IJHS claiming increased deaths in the US as a result of the Fukushima accident. It's 18 pages of PDF. I have not read it. http://www.radiation.org/reading/pubs/HS42_1F.pdf Among others, M&S quote themselves (in Counterpunch, and elsewhere); Jay Gould; Ernest Sternglass; Alice Stewart (a 1958 paper); and your friend and mine, CHRIS BUSBY!! (Wolves of Water) With respect to the IJHS, some 15 years ago I attended a large anti-nuclear event in Albuquerque. One or more papers from the IJHS were being distributed from the literature table. Steven Dapra At 01:01 AM 12/22/2011, you wrote: >Mike, Can you enlighten me on the Journal called >" International Journal of Health Services". >It? publishes papers which appears to be bogus >such as the the one the list members talked >about recently. It highlighted increased deaths >in USA post Fukushima. In 2004, the journal >published results of "studies" in the high >background radiation areas of India. I know one >of the authors of the paper. He is a well-known >anti nuclear activists Any information on this journal!! >Regards >Parthasarathy [edit] From rwhelbig at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 05:18:22 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:18:22 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation according to Gundersen Message-ID: Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising?radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ?ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) ?Title:?Fukushima ? Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushima-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 ?Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com?) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma-ionising-radiation/ From idias at interchange.ubc.ca Fri Dec 23 06:50:31 2011 From: idias at interchange.ubc.ca (John R Johnson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:50:31 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima ? Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushima-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma-ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From spencer.fisher at opg.com Fri Dec 23 06:57:35 2011 From: spencer.fisher at opg.com (FISHER Spencer -NUCLEAR) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 07:57:35 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Changes to CNSC PTNSR Message-ID: <88BEE4AFEE661246B4BF6D0AA2C64705B1E1660799@CATOU-OGMAPUWCE.corp.opg.com> The Regulations Amending the Packaging and Transport of Nuclear Substances Regulations and accompanying Regulatory Impact Analysis Statement were published in the December 21, 2011 edition of the Canada Gazette, Part II. The Packaging and Transport of Nuclear Substances Regulations have been amended to exempt the following items, following the sale to the end user: * check sources containing a small, very low-risk quantity of nuclear substances * radiation devices containing less than 10 times the exemption quantity of a radioactive nuclear substance For more information, as well as key links, please go to information bulletin 11-20: http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/readingroom/infobulletins/view_bulletin.cfm?bulletin_id=266 ----------------------------------------- THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY AND/OR CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying, conversion to hard copy or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify me by return e-mail and delete this message from your system. Ontario Power Generation Inc. From bullet308 at att.net Fri Dec 23 07:03:04 2011 From: bullet308 at att.net (Tom Simpson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:03:04 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF47C08.7000406@att.net> Arnie Gunderson is a nuclear engineer by training and profession. When he talks about what is going on in the guts of boiling water reactor, I listen because he is qualified to have an opinion and he generally make sense when he speaks on the subject. He is, however, not to be confused with an epidemiologist, and these numbers on cancers resulting from Fukushima seem to be ridiculously high. Extrapolating from Three Mile Island data does not even begin to make sense, given the radically different nature of the accidents. -Tom On 12/23/2011 06:18 AM, Roger Helbig wrote: > Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels > him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb > - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile > Island - is that not correct? > > The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation > > by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) > > Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 > years ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia > (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima ? Total Cost > http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushima-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 > Dec 21, 2011 > > Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading > nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) > redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in > terms of human and total cost. [...] > > I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers > > Based on Three Mile Island studies > About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI > And that was small compared to Fukushima > And in a much lower population density > First thyroid cancer > Then lung cancer > Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that > > Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: > Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma-ionising-radiation/ > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From howard.long at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 10:35:24 2011 From: howard.long at comcast.net (Howard Long) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:35:24 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer BENEFIT/cost from Fukushma ionizing radiation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4916CD63-5259-44C2-B7A3-F4594AE77024@comcast.net> Dear Christina, Merry Christmas and peace, as your name impies. As an epidemiologist and board member of Doctors for Disaster Preparedness, I have studied extensively the effects of ionizing radiation for 2 decades. I am happy to reassure you that the rate of cancer in areas with increased radiation in Japan will be measurably LESS. Please look at 1, the recent post on Radsafe of the UCBerkeley study, 2, B Cohen's radon study, 3, Cameron's review of Nuclear Shipyard Workers (.76 total mortality rate where extra 5 cSv!), etc. Howard Long MD MPH On Dec 23, 2011, at 4:50 AM, John R Johnson wrote: > Christina > > There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? > > John > > -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM > To: RADSAFE > Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen > > Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels > him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb > - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile > Island - is that not correct? > > The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation > > by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) > > Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 > years ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia > (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima ? Total Cost > http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushima-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 > Dec 21, 2011 > > Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading > nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) > redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in > terms of human and total cost. [...] > > I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers > > Based on Three Mile Island studies > About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI > And that was small compared to Fukushima > And in a much lower population density > First thyroid cancer > Then lung cancer > Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that > > Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: > Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma-ionising-radiation/ > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Fri Dec 23 11:23:44 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:23:44 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Hi, John. You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick that out of the background rate of cancer. I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, we can consider those two sources equal. Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From ograabe at ucdavis.edu Fri Dec 23 12:00:08 2011 From: ograabe at ucdavis.edu (Otto G. Raabe) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:00:08 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionizing radiation according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111223180238.C330C43E2FAF@agni.phys.iit.edu> >The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation >by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) > >Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 >years ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia >Based on Three Mile Island studies >About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI ************************** THIS IS TOTALLY IMAGINARY. THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC INCREASE IN LUNG CANCER CAUSED BY THE TMI ACCIDENT. [.....UNLESS NERVOUS RESIDENTS DRASTICALLY INCREASED THEIR RATE OF CIGARETTE SMOKING.] Otto ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** From sperle at mirion.com Fri Dec 23 12:47:17 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:47:17 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionizing radiation according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: <20111223180238.C330C43E2FAF@agni.phys.iit.edu> Message-ID: Otto, Very accurate assessment. The only outcome from TMI can be summed up as a lot of stress, poor government and utility communications and a significant number of improvements as a result of lessons learned. Health issues, other than stress related perhaps, non-existent. The amount of radioactive material released from the reactor as well as the highest estimated dose to both the workers as well as the general public, minimal at best. Higher exposures are observed in many geographic areas around the world on daily, yet there is never a factual observation of elevated cancers or other health associated statistics. Linkage to radiation for every day ills is simply a fabrication without merit. The only real linkage is that we have somehting to discuss, address and hopefully educate the public as to what the true risks are, radiation as well as the real risks from other everyday sources the population is exposed to in their every day lives. Regards, Sandy ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ On 12/23/11 10:00 AM, "Otto G. Raabe" wrote: > >>The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation >>by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) >> >>Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 >>years ENE News ? First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia >>Based on Three Mile Island studies >>About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI >************************** >THIS IS TOTALLY IMAGINARY. > >THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC INCREASE IN LUNG >CANCER CAUSED BY THE TMI ACCIDENT. >[.....UNLESS NERVOUS RESIDENTS DRASTICALLY >INCREASED THEIR RATE OF CIGARETTE SMOKING.] > >Otto > > >********************************************** >Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP >Center for Health & the Environment >University of California >One Shields Avenue >Davis, CA 95616 >E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu >Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 >*********************************************** >_______________________________________________ >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood >the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 23 12:59:01 2011 From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:59:01 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 'nother question on MBq/km2 or two Message-ID: <0D180A46-3603-4635-9950-6CC934E54281@sbcglobal.net> http://www.pnas.org/content/108/49/19530.full has a map of the area contaminated by 100,000 or 10,000 MBq/km2 and also other units to keep me on my toes Practically speaking, what kind of kibosh does this put on ag? Was the loss in the area around Chernobyl greater in the summer or winter? After the rain or the snow? I assume that if the winter, there will be another set of tests of soil and village in a few months.....????? -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From karen_street at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 23 13:00:38 2011 From: karen_street at sbcglobal.net (Karen Street) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:00:38 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] 'nother question on MBq/km2 or two Message-ID: <70CB7EB3-5888-4DBE-9840-56282F9590BE@sbcglobal.net> http://www.pnas.org/content/108/49/19530.full has a map of the area contaminated by 100,000 or 10,000 MBq/km2 and also other units to keep me on my toes Practically speaking, what kind of kibosh does this put on ag? Was the loss in the area around Chernobyl greater in the summer or winter? After the rain or the snow? I assume that if the winter, there will be another set of tests of soil and village in a few months.....????? -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php From SAFarber at optonline.net Fri Dec 23 14:25:12 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 15:25:12 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> Message-ID: <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> Hello all, Happy Holidays to All, and a New Year filled with Peace, Love, The Media Becoming Scientifically Literate, and Charlatans Not Distorting the Truth for Their Hidden Agendas: [Please Santa, is this too much to ask?] The claims by Gundersen of millions of deaths from Fukushima are patently absurd vs. a first-order consideration. If they were within 3 or 4 orders of magnitude of being true, more people would be dying from cancer each year than from all deaths. And careful studies of the effect of radiation on human health have established that "Ubiquitous Background" radiation exposure can be responsible for no more than about 2% of all cancer mortality [ which is about 16% of all deaths], or about 0.3% of total cancer deaths We have no need to debate the LNT regarding Fukushima, or how many cancer deaths, if any, the TMI accident might have caused. We simply need to consider the facts of how much radiation exposure is delivered each year to a population like the US as an example, and what overall health effects have been seen, at a maximum vs. the population radiation exposure of a TMI accident or Fukushima accident. The US National Council on Radiation Protection in a recent major Report [No. 160, "Ionizing Radiation Exposure of the Population of the US" -2009 ] observed that Americans were exposed to more than 7 times as much ionizing radiation from medical procedures in 2006 as was the case in the early 1980s, doubling overall rad exposure in the past 25 years. In 2006, Collective Radiation Dose [Person Sv = A Summation of all radiation exposure] to the entire US Population per year was estimated by the NCRP: Annual Exposure Category Person Sv % of Total -Ubiquitous Background 933,000 50 -Medical 899,000 48 -Consumer-misc. 37,400 2 -Industrial 1,000 < 0.1 -Nuclear Power 150 < 0.01 TOTAL 1,870,000 So Medical radiation exposure is 6,000 times higher per year, and total population exposure is 12,000 times higher per year than that that from 100 nuclear plants generating 20% of US electricity. Many anti-nukes like a Caldicott, or the so-called "Physicians for Social Responsibility" make erroneous claims and try to divert attentions from the reality of medical exposure as a relevant factor. These parties argue that medical radiation exposure in CT scans and Nuclear Medicine exams has absolute benefits to patients, outweighing any possible cancer risk. Nonetheless, there is growing recognition of a problem with "Unnecessary" Medical Radiation exposure. The US FDA , Center for Radiological Health has studied medical radiation exposure for decades. About one-third of total Medical Radiation is what the FDA terms "Unnecessary Medical Radiation Exposure" [*1] . This results from improper calibration and device settings, repeats due to inadequate training, and other factors which expose patients to radiation without clinical need or benefit. FDA estimates of "Unnecessary Medical Rad Exposure" equates to 300,000 Person Sv , or 2,000 times more external and internal rad exposure to the US public each year than than the 150 Person Sv from 100 nuclear power plants. The US population receives 150 person Sv of "Unnecessary Medical Radiation" every 4 hours. A minor effort to avoid 150 person-Sv in medical uses, would reduce US population exposure by an amount equal to the fixation of anti-nuclear scaremongers and charlatans [like - .... and .... and --- -- the list is growing since it is such an easy way for a person with no facts to get their ego stroked] on shutting down 100 US units, and 300 more international nuclear power plants. These scaremongers manipulate statistics in trying to get society to stop what has been documented as the safest form of power generation per unit energy produced, while asking the world to squander roughly a thousand billion dollars invested in nuclear electric generating plants operating today. The Three Mile nuclear plant Accident [a so-called "Disaster" in which no one was killed because of a plant design that minimized rad releases] in 1979 resulted in a total population exposure of about 20 person Sv. So, it would require about 15,000 TMI scale nuclear power plant "disasters" per year at current Medical exposure levels to equal the FDA's estimated annual "Unnecessary Radiation Exposure" from Medical uses of CT and Nuclear Medicine. The Fukushima accident will after thorough evaluation and calculation will have delivered much more radiation exposure than TMI. But even if it causes 100 or 1000 times more than TMI, the total population exposure might be 2000 person-Sv [if 100 times more] or 20,000 person-Sv [if 1,000 times more] than TMI. Importantly, we still have a handle on the MAXIMUM number of cancers possible per person-Sv based on the LNT which shows the claims of anti-nuke activists to be ludicrous. Based on LNT, and what is likely to be an overestimate of the cancer deaths predicted, it is estimated that one can expect at a very MAXIMUM about 1 cancer death per 20 person-Sv delivered to a population from whatever cause per year, expressed over the lifetime of the exposed population. So if Fukushima results in 20,000 person-Sv of population rad exposure [ or 1,000 times more than TMI] it can be expected that there would be an absolute maximum of 1,000 cancer deaths expressed over the lifetime of the exposed Japanese population. Gundersons unsupportable claims of 4,000,000 deaths are at least 4,000 times higher than what would be expected at a very maximum. What also must be recognized in a discussion of health costs, are the Public Health benefits of operating a nuclear plant vs. an alternative. The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others]. So per single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant operating in place of a 1,000 MWe coal plant over a 30 year period since the nuke plant began operation as with Fukushima, a single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant will have avoided about 100 environmental deaths x 30 year = 3,000 avoided deaths. As a sidebar, since the TMI accident 30 years ago which caused 20 person-Sv and an estimated 1 cancer death, the 100 nuclear plants in the US will have avoided about [3,000 deaths/plant over 30 years] x 100 plants = 300,000 deaths vs. coal fired power generation. The US nuclear generating capacity from 100 nuclear plants avoided 300,000 deaths vs. a predicted one death from TMI. The hand-waving by scaremongers like the long list of charlatans and con-men we have seen reveling in the attention of fawning innumerate media since Fukushima occurred does not change these likely level of risks. I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operated it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. So Fukushima's operation for 30 years will have avoided a rough estimate of about 13 times more deaths than will theoretically result from Fukushima having caused 20,000 person-Sv of population radiation exposure. The bottom line is that inflated and unsupported claims of 4,000,000 cancer deaths by Gunderson, or Caldicot, or Busby, or Bertell from Fukushima are disproved by the actual cancer deaths resulting from Background Radiation and Medical Exposure. 4,000,000 deaths from Fukushima would equate to about 400 million cancer deaths in the US PER YEAR, or more than the entire US population dying each year from cancer from annual background and medical rad exposure. Obviously Gundersen's claims fail a first-order analysis of the risks involved Stewart Farber, MS Public Health 203-441-8433 [*1] "Initiative to Reduce Unnecessary Radiation Exposure from Medical Imaging"- Center for Devices and Radiological Health, US Food and Drub Administration, Feb. 2010 ================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:24 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Hi, John. You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick that out of the background rate of cancer. I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, we can consider those two sources equal. Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From stanford at stanforddosimetry.com Fri Dec 23 15:02:20 2011 From: stanford at stanforddosimetry.com (Neill Stanford) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:02:20 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> Message-ID: <006701ccc1b6$2993ea30$7cbbbe90$@com> Thank you Stu! Once again, a well developed and well presented debunking! What can we do to get your name on some editors' lists to call before they reference some of this stuff? Sincerely, Neill Stanford, CHP Stanford Dosimetry, LLC 360 733 7367 360 933 1794 (fax) www.stanforddosimetry.com stanford at stanforddosimetry.com -----Original Message----- From: Stewart Farber [mailto:SAFarber at optonline.net] Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:25 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen Hello all, Happy Holidays to All, and a New Year filled with Peace, Love, The Media Becoming Scientifically Literate, and Charlatans Not Distorting the Truth for Their Hidden Agendas: [Please Santa, is this too much to ask?] The claims by Gundersen of millions of deaths from Fukushima are patently absurd vs. a first-order consideration. If they were within 3 or 4 orders of magnitude of being true, more people would be dying from cancer each year than from all deaths. And careful studies of the effect of radiation on human health have established that "Ubiquitous Background" radiation exposure can be responsible for no more than about 2% of all cancer mortality [ which is about 16% of all deaths], or about 0.3% of total cancer deaths We have no need to debate the LNT regarding Fukushima, or how many cancer deaths, if any, the TMI accident might have caused. We simply need to consider the facts of how much radiation exposure is delivered each year to a population like the US as an example, and what overall health effects have been seen, at a maximum vs. the population radiation exposure of a TMI accident or Fukushima accident. The US National Council on Radiation Protection in a recent major Report [No. 160, "Ionizing Radiation Exposure of the Population of the US" -2009 ] observed that Americans were exposed to more than 7 times as much ionizing radiation from medical procedures in 2006 as was the case in the early 1980s, doubling overall rad exposure in the past 25 years. In 2006, Collective Radiation Dose [Person Sv = A Summation of all radiation exposure] to the entire US Population per year was estimated by the NCRP: Annual Exposure Category Person Sv % of Total -Ubiquitous Background 933,000 50 -Medical 899,000 48 -Consumer-misc. 37,400 2 -Industrial 1,000 < 0.1 -Nuclear Power 150 < 0.01 TOTAL 1,870,000 So Medical radiation exposure is 6,000 times higher per year, and total population exposure is 12,000 times higher per year than that that from 100 nuclear plants generating 20% of US electricity. Many anti-nukes like a Caldicott, or the so-called "Physicians for Social Responsibility" make erroneous claims and try to divert attentions from the reality of medical exposure as a relevant factor. These parties argue that medical radiation exposure in CT scans and Nuclear Medicine exams has absolute benefits to patients, outweighing any possible cancer risk. Nonetheless, there is growing recognition of a problem with "Unnecessary" Medical Radiation exposure. The US FDA , Center for Radiological Health has studied medical radiation exposure for decades. About one-third of total Medical Radiation is what the FDA terms "Unnecessary Medical Radiation Exposure" [*1] . This results from improper calibration and device settings, repeats due to inadequate training, and other factors which expose patients to radiation without clinical need or benefit. FDA estimates of "Unnecessary Medical Rad Exposure" equates to 300,000 Person Sv , or 2,000 times more external and internal rad exposure to the US public each year than than the 150 Person Sv from 100 nuclear power plants. The US population receives 150 person Sv of "Unnecessary Medical Radiation" every 4 hours. A minor effort to avoid 150 person-Sv in medical uses, would reduce US population exposure by an amount equal to the fixation of anti-nuclear scaremongers and charlatans [like - .... and .... and --- -- the list is growing since it is such an easy way for a person with no facts to get their ego stroked] on shutting down 100 US units, and 300 more international nuclear power plants. These scaremongers manipulate statistics in trying to get society to stop what has been documented as the safest form of power generation per unit energy produced, while asking the world to squander roughly a thousand billion dollars invested in nuclear electric generating plants operating today. The Three Mile nuclear plant Accident [a so-called "Disaster" in which no one was killed because of a plant design that minimized rad releases] in 1979 resulted in a total population exposure of about 20 person Sv. So, it would require about 15,000 TMI scale nuclear power plant "disasters" per year at current Medical exposure levels to equal the FDA's estimated annual "Unnecessary Radiation Exposure" from Medical uses of CT and Nuclear Medicine. The Fukushima accident will after thorough evaluation and calculation will have delivered much more radiation exposure than TMI. But even if it causes 100 or 1000 times more than TMI, the total population exposure might be 2000 person-Sv [if 100 times more] or 20,000 person-Sv [if 1,000 times more] than TMI. Importantly, we still have a handle on the MAXIMUM number of cancers possible per person-Sv based on the LNT which shows the claims of anti-nuke activists to be ludicrous. Based on LNT, and what is likely to be an overestimate of the cancer deaths predicted, it is estimated that one can expect at a very MAXIMUM about 1 cancer death per 20 person-Sv delivered to a population from whatever cause per year, expressed over the lifetime of the exposed population. So if Fukushima results in 20,000 person-Sv of population rad exposure [ or 1,000 times more than TMI] it can be expected that there would be an absolute maximum of 1,000 cancer deaths expressed over the lifetime of the exposed Japanese population. Gundersons unsupportable claims of 4,000,000 deaths are at least 4,000 times higher than what would be expected at a very maximum. What also must be recognized in a discussion of health costs, are the Public Health benefits of operating a nuclear plant vs. an alternative. The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others]. So per single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant operating in place of a 1,000 MWe coal plant over a 30 year period since the nuke plant began operation as with Fukushima, a single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant will have avoided about 100 environmental deaths x 30 year = 3,000 avoided deaths. As a sidebar, since the TMI accident 30 years ago which caused 20 person-Sv and an estimated 1 cancer death, the 100 nuclear plants in the US will have avoided about [3,000 deaths/plant over 30 years] x 100 plants = 300,000 deaths vs. coal fired power generation. The US nuclear generating capacity from 100 nuclear plants avoided 300,000 deaths vs. a predicted one death from TMI. The hand-waving by scaremongers like the long list of charlatans and con-men we have seen reveling in the attention of fawning innumerate media since Fukushima occurred does not change these likely level of risks. I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operated it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. So Fukushima's operation for 30 years will have avoided a rough estimate of about 13 times more deaths than will theoretically result from Fukushima having caused 20,000 person-Sv of population radiation exposure. The bottom line is that inflated and unsupported claims of 4,000,000 cancer deaths by Gunderson, or Caldicot, or Busby, or Bertell from Fukushima are disproved by the actual cancer deaths resulting from Background Radiation and Medical Exposure. 4,000,000 deaths from Fukushima would equate to about 400 million cancer deaths in the US PER YEAR, or more than the entire US population dying each year from cancer from annual background and medical rad exposure. Obviously Gundersen's claims fail a first-order analysis of the risks involved Stewart Farber, MS Public Health 203-441-8433 [*1] "Initiative to Reduce Unnecessary Radiation Exposure from Medical Imaging"- Center for Devices and Radiological Health, US Food and Drub Administration, Feb. 2010 ================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:24 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Hi, John. You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick that out of the background rate of cancer. I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, we can consider those two sources equal. Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From JPreisig at aol.com Fri Dec 23 15:08:41 2011 From: JPreisig at aol.com (JPreisig at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:08:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Some Predictions Message-ID: <54fe.63ac9e95.3c2647d9@aol.com> Dear Radsafe, From: _jpreisig at aol.com_ (mailto:jpreisig at aol.com) . Hope you all are well. Merry Christmas!!! Happy holidays!!!! Some predictions for the next 40-50 years follow. Importance is for global warming, nuclear energy, natural gas use etc.???? First, the natural gas deposits are being fracked in northeastern USA (Pennsylvania). I guess fracking has an environmental downside. Natural gas prices from the local utility in New Jersey (USA) are being reduced due to the local natural gas production. A new physics particle has been discovered at the Large Hadron Collider. See CERN, Fermilab and/or Brookhaven Lab websites. Higgs search seems to be looking around 115 MeV now???? Believe what you want about global warming. Some human effects are there I guess. Recent polar motion peak was in 1998. The next such peak will be in 2042. Global cooling will take place from 1998 to 2020 (perhaps with a 5-10 year thermal storage of the Earth lag time). Maybe the polar ice sheets will solidify a bit around 2020 to 2025. Global warming will take place from 2020 to 2042 again. Warm around 2042 and 5-10 years thereafter. Bet on it. From 2010 to 2015 or so Earth temperatures should become more average, or more moderate in general. There is plenty of global water around due to recent polar ice cap warming. Around 2020 there may be some droughts in the world and also some fairly large snowstorms. Think something like the snow event of New York City in 1888. (22 years before polar motion peak of 1910). Droughts could be like the Dust Bowl of 1932 (central USA) (22 years after 1910) --- hopefully farming and soil conservation practices will make any such dust bowl event less severe. NRC has approved some nuclear plant design to go forward. Good. Enjoy your weekend!!!! Ho Ho Ho!!!! Joseph R. (Joe) Preisig, PhD From jjc105 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 15:33:12 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:33:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) In-Reply-To: <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> Message-ID: <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you predict millions of deaths resulting from any given event. you will likely gain much notoriety and acclaim in the news media. Years later, when your prediction fails to materialize. nobody will notice. It's a "no lose" proposition. Jerry Cohen ________________________________ From: Stewart Farber To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Fri, December 23, 2011 12:25:12 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen Hello all, Happy Holidays to All, and a New Year filled with Peace, Love, The Media Becoming Scientifically Literate, and Charlatans Not Distorting the Truth for Their Hidden Agendas: [Please Santa, is this too much to ask?] The claims by Gundersen of millions of deaths from Fukushima are patently absurd vs. a first-order consideration. If they were within 3 or 4 orders of magnitude of being true, more people would be dying from cancer each year than from all deaths. And careful studies of the effect of radiation on human health have established that "Ubiquitous Background" radiation exposure can be responsible for no more than about 2% of all cancer mortality [ which is about 16% of all deaths], or about 0.3% of total cancer deaths We have no need to debate the LNT regarding Fukushima, or how many cancer deaths, if any, the TMI accident might have caused. We simply need to consider the facts of how much radiation exposure is delivered each year to a population like the US as an example, and what overall health effects have been seen, at a maximum vs. the population radiation exposure of a TMI accident or Fukushima accident. The US National Council on Radiation Protection in a recent major Report [No. 160, "Ionizing Radiation Exposure of the Population of the US" -2009 ] observed that Americans were exposed to more than 7 times as much ionizing radiation from medical procedures in 2006 as was the case in the early 1980s, doubling overall rad exposure in the past 25 years. In 2006, Collective Radiation Dose [Person Sv = A Summation of all radiation exposure] to the entire US Population per year was estimated by the NCRP: Annual Exposure Category Person Sv % of Total -Ubiquitous Background 933,000 50 -Medical 899,000 48 -Consumer-misc. 37,400 2 -Industrial 1,000 < 0.1 -Nuclear Power 150 < 0.01 TOTAL 1,870,000 So Medical radiation exposure is 6,000 times higher per year, and total population exposure is 12,000 times higher per year than that that from 100 nuclear plants generating 20% of US electricity. Many anti-nukes like a Caldicott, or the so-called "Physicians for Social Responsibility" make erroneous claims and try to divert attentions from the reality of medical exposure as a relevant factor. These parties argue that medical radiation exposure in CT scans and Nuclear Medicine exams has absolute benefits to patients, outweighing any possible cancer risk. Nonetheless, there is growing recognition of a problem with "Unnecessary" Medical Radiation exposure. The US FDA , Center for Radiological Health has studied medical radiation exposure for decades. About one-third of total Medical Radiation is what the FDA terms "Unnecessary Medical Radiation Exposure" [*1] . This results from improper calibration and device settings, repeats due to inadequate training, and other factors which expose patients to radiation without clinical need or benefit. FDA estimates of "Unnecessary Medical Rad Exposure" equates to 300,000 Person Sv , or 2,000 times more external and internal rad exposure to the US public each year than than the 150 Person Sv from 100 nuclear power plants. The US population receives 150 person Sv of "Unnecessary Medical Radiation" every 4 hours. A minor effort to avoid 150 person-Sv in medical uses, would reduce US population exposure by an amount equal to the fixation of anti-nuclear scaremongers and charlatans [like - .... and .... and --- -- the list is growing since it is such an easy way for a person with no facts to get their ego stroked] on shutting down 100 US units, and 300 more international nuclear power plants. These scaremongers manipulate statistics in trying to get society to stop what has been documented as the safest form of power generation per unit energy produced, while asking the world to squander roughly a thousand billion dollars invested in nuclear electric generating plants operating today. The Three Mile nuclear plant Accident [a so-called "Disaster" in which no one was killed because of a plant design that minimized rad releases] in 1979 resulted in a total population exposure of about 20 person Sv. So, it would require about 15,000 TMI scale nuclear power plant "disasters" per year at current Medical exposure levels to equal the FDA's estimated annual "Unnecessary Radiation Exposure" from Medical uses of CT and Nuclear Medicine. The Fukushima accident will after thorough evaluation and calculation will have delivered much more radiation exposure than TMI. But even if it causes 100 or 1000 times more than TMI, the total population exposure might be 2000 person-Sv [if 100 times more] or 20,000 person-Sv [if 1,000 times more] than TMI. Importantly, we still have a handle on the MAXIMUM number of cancers possible per person-Sv based on the LNT which shows the claims of anti-nuke activists to be ludicrous. Based on LNT, and what is likely to be an overestimate of the cancer deaths predicted, it is estimated that one can expect at a very MAXIMUM about 1 cancer death per 20 person-Sv delivered to a population from whatever cause per year, expressed over the lifetime of the exposed population. So if Fukushima results in 20,000 person-Sv of population rad exposure [ or 1,000 times more than TMI] it can be expected that there would be an absolute maximum of 1,000 cancer deaths expressed over the lifetime of the exposed Japanese population. Gundersons unsupportable claims of 4,000,000 deaths are at least 4,000 times higher than what would be expected at a very maximum. What also must be recognized in a discussion of health costs, are the Public Health benefits of operating a nuclear plant vs. an alternative. The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others]. So per single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant operating in place of a 1,000 MWe coal plant over a 30 year period since the nuke plant began operation as with Fukushima, a single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant will have avoided about 100 environmental deaths x 30 year = 3,000 avoided deaths. As a sidebar, since the TMI accident 30 years ago which caused 20 person-Sv and an estimated 1 cancer death, the 100 nuclear plants in the US will have avoided about [3,000 deaths/plant over 30 years] x 100 plants = 300,000 deaths vs. coal fired power generation. The US nuclear generating capacity from 100 nuclear plants avoided 300,000 deaths vs. a predicted one death from TMI. The hand-waving by scaremongers like the long list of charlatans and con-men we have seen reveling in the attention of fawning innumerate media since Fukushima occurred does not change these likely level of risks. I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operated it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. So Fukushima's operation for 30 years will have avoided a rough estimate of about 13 times more deaths than will theoretically result from Fukushima having caused 20,000 person-Sv of population radiation exposure. The bottom line is that inflated and unsupported claims of 4,000,000 cancer deaths by Gunderson, or Caldicot, or Busby, or Bertell from Fukushima are disproved by the actual cancer deaths resulting from Background Radiation and Medical Exposure. 4,000,000 deaths from Fukushima would equate to about 400 million cancer deaths in the US PER YEAR, or more than the entire US population dying each year from cancer from annual background and medical rad exposure. Obviously Gundersen's claims fail a first-order analysis of the risks involved Stewart Farber, MS Public Health 203-441-8433 [*1] "Initiative to Reduce Unnecessary Radiation Exposure from Medical Imaging"- Center for Devices and Radiological Health, US Food and Drub Administration, Feb. 2010 ================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:24 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Hi, John. You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick that out of the background rate of cancer. I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, we can consider those two sources equal. Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From JPreisig at aol.com Fri Dec 23 16:09:01 2011 From: JPreisig at aol.com (JPreisig at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:09:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Some Accelerator HP Stuff Message-ID: <6fca.4efda09c.3c2655fc@aol.com> Dear Radsafe, From: _jpreisig at aol.com_ (mailto:jpreisig at aol.com) . Some thoughts about accelerator health physics follow. Guess I used to work at the USA particle accelerator that isn't too far from the closed Shoreham (Long Island) nuclear plant. One of the older HP super techs there used to kiddingly say that if you weren't getting 5 rad a day, you weren't doing your job properly. Yuk yuk. The old source calibration building at that lab was an old military morgue, I think. It was a little creepy there on second shift doing calibrations there. I used to use a 0.5 Curie AmBe neutron source to do my calibration work there. There was a larger (ten times larger????!!!!) AmBe (or PuBe???) source there. but I usually didn't use it. The old calibration facility had neutron sources all over the place downstairs. Try to keep clutter (and extra sources) out of your calibration area during measurements. The 5 Ci AmBe or PuBe source was kept in a large drum of parafin (or whatever) as shielding. One definitely needs to keep such a big source and shield away from the calibration area during measurements. Hunt and Eisenhauer and Schwartz have written papers on how to do neutron calibrations properly. See their papers in Health Physics or other journals. See also Accelerator Health Physics by Patterson and Thomas (if you can actually find a copy of it) and the Accelerator Book of Course notes by Cossairt. A paper by Awschalom describes Bonner Multisphere spectrometer data analysis, unfolding etc. Above 15 MeV or so, it is important to use a plastic scintillator activation detector to get data at energies the Bonner Multisphere Spectrometer doesn't measure. Analyze Bonner data with BON4/BON5, Louhi, Maxed or some other analysis code. The plastic scintillator activation method/technique is described at the rear end of Patterson and Thomas' book. (McCaslin). When using the Plastic Scintillator in a high energy environment, be sure to carry the scintillator in a shielded container (0.98 MeV positrons are created upon activation) and also keep the scintillator in a dark plastic bag, to keep light out. Usually the plastic scintillator is counted using a shielded photomultiplier tube, and mineral oil (or something like it) is used to couple the plastic scintillator to the photomultiplier tube. Yummy and messy. An article in Health Physics right now describes the effects of accelerator pulse structure on counting losses. Read it??? The Health Physicist at a major particle physics accelerator usually has a few or more varied tasks. Do calibrations, run MCNP or MCNPX, Fluka, EGS, Lahet etc. The HP should look out for himself as far as personal dose equivalent is concerned. A dose equivalent rate of only 1 mrem/hour will build up over 10-15 weeks of accelerator work at 40 hours a week. The plastic scintillator and calibration work can contribute to overall dose equivalent. It's a good idea to keep a Snoopy, Anderson-Braun detector, remball or whatever on hand when doing calibrations. Badges measure some part of the neutron dose. Bubble dosimeters might have some measuring capability at 15 MeV???? At the accelerator near Shoreham, particle physics experiment crews work in trailers (yeah, Double wide, single wide etc.) on the accelerator floor. The main accelerator is shielded with iron and concrete blocks (and the beamlines also). Inside the shielding people like Bob Casey have made dose equivalent rate measurements using plastic or whatever --- see the relevant information in Patterson and Thomas's book. Things are probably different now at colliding beam accelerators (CERN LHC and BNL RHIC). I don't think anyone is sitting in a trailer near the beam collision points when the accelerator is running. Experiments may be run more remotely or perhaps from well shielded blockhouses --- I don't really know. Nobody is climbing over the shielding when the accelerator is on. Much of these accelerators is shielded with Earth mounds. Really. Tour CERN LHC and/or BNL RHIC to see what goes on. Have a good holiday!!!! Regards, Joseph R. (Joe) Preisig, PhD From maurysis at peoplepc.com Fri Dec 23 16:27:15 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:27:15 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) In-Reply-To: <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EF50043.6060608@peoplepc.com> I enjoy the suspicion that at least some small accounting for my still huffing and puffing with emphysema at 84 might be accounted for by a little radioactivity from Chernobyl amd TMI ....and a Merry Christmas to all Maury&Dog ==============================.... On 12/23/2011 3:33 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > If you predict millions of deaths resulting from any given event. you will likely gain much notoriety and acclaim in the news media. > Years later, when your prediction fails to materialize. nobody will notice. It's a "no lose" proposition. > > Jerry Cohen > > ________________________________ > From: Stewart Farber > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing --------------------------snipped------------------ From sperle at mirion.com Fri Dec 23 16:47:23 2011 From: sperle at mirion.com (Perle, Sandy) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:47:23 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Soon, mobile phones in India will carry radiation tags In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Shalini Singh, TNN | Dec 23, 2011, 10.58AM The government wants to enforce education of consumers about the benefits of the hands-free option and choosing SMS over voice calls or keeping mobile calls as brief as possible, with special health warnings for children, adolescents, pregnant women, and those with any kind of medical implants. A very large majority of subscribers have no information or recourse relating to health hazards from possible harmful Electro-Magnetic Frequency (EMF) radiation emitting from mobile handsets. Radio frequency (RF) is the primary medium of mobile communication. The rate at which RF energy is absorbed by the body is called Specific Absorption Rate (SAR). Various global studies establish that exposure to RF energy beyond a threshold SAR value can cause significant health issues. India has so far been following a SAR limit of 2 watts/kg in accordance with ICNIRP (International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection Association) norms. An inter-ministerial committee has now curtailed the SAR level for mobile handsets further to 1.6 watts/kg average over a six minute period and taken over a volume containing a mass of 1 gram of human tissue. The SAR level shall now be displayed on handsets. The guidelines prescribed by the committee will lead to guidelines and legally binding provisions under the Indian Telegraph Act. This includes a mandatory provision that all cellphones sold in India in future will comply with relevant BIS standards and be sold with hands-free devices. The SAR value information of the mobile handset should be available on the manufacturer's website and in the handset manual. The information on SAR values shall also be made available to mobile subscribers at the handset point of sale. Further, all mobile handsets manufactured and sold in India or imported from international destinations shall be checked for compliance of the SAR limit. Those manufacturing handsets in India will be required to self-declare SAR value of each handset. In respect of imported handsets, manufacturers, apart from self-declaration of SAR, shall specify the SAR information in their documentation, which will be verified by the appropriate authority. Secretary of the department of telecom, R Chandrashekhar, had earlier indicated that handsets will be covered by BIS standards and the DoT needs to approach them; however there are no provisions for such compliance under the Indian Telegraph Act. It has therefore been decided that suitable amendments in the Indian Telegraph Rules under the Indian Telegraph Act 1885, shall be enacted so that government can enforce mandatory certification of SAR limit on mobile handsets. The government also wants the instructions in the consumer handset booklet or user manual to contain five new safety precautions. These include: "Use a wireless, hands-free system with a low power Bluetooth emitter; ensure that cellphone has a low SAR; keep voice calls short or send text messages instead - an advice that applies especially to children, adolescents and pregnant women; use cellphone when signal quality is good; and finally people with active medical implants should preferably keep mobile handsets at least 15cms away from the implant". A final list of SAR values of different mobile phones will be uploaded on the DoT and TEC websites. So far, India along with Europe, Japan, Taiwan and Australia have followed ICNIRP standards, while markets such as the United States, Canada and South Africa follow IEEE standards. An inter-ministerial panel has prescribed that all cellphones sold in India in future will display radiation value of the cellphone on the manufacturer's website and in handset manual. ----------------------------------- Sander C. Perle President Mirion Technologies Dosimetry Services Division 2652 McGaw Avenue Irvine, CA 92614 +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office) +1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax) Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ From howard.long at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 17:12:56 2011 From: howard.long at comcast.net (Howard Long) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 15:12:56 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> Message-ID: <108728B8-D481-43D6-9162-240C2FC81F86@comcast.net> Stewart, have you been assimilated by the BORG (Bureaucrats Of Rapacious Government)?! "The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others. -" "I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operatede it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. " Do you believe political "science"?! Please observe Climategate, read State of Fear (Crichton) and Type A Behavior and Your Heart (Friedman and Rosenman). Then observe original data on COPD, lung cancer, heart disease, particulates, acid gases, mercury etc. - with dosage considered, as with radiation. I find NO credible study showing any disease more likely from proximity to a coal plant! My counter found just 15 mR/hr 100 feet from reactors and storage yard ( vs 25 mR/hr from the granite sinks in the Phoenix hotel). However, LLivermoreNL area Communities Against A Radioacrive Environment (the very name betraying their ignorance) continues agitation for intentional over-regulation to kill the nuclear industry (Rockwell) Cold kills, not coal! Stop knocking coal! Elect TEA stimulators of the economy! Howard Long MD MPH Epidemiology howard.long at comcast.net On Dec 23, 2011, at 12:25 PM, Stewart Farber wrote: > Hello all, > > Happy Holidays to All, and a New Year filled with Peace, Love, The Media > Becoming Scientifically Literate, and Charlatans Not Distorting the Truth > for Their Hidden Agendas: [Please Santa, is this too much to ask?] > > > The claims by Gundersen of millions of deaths from Fukushima are patently > absurd vs. a first-order consideration. If they were within 3 or 4 orders > of magnitude of being true, more people would be dying from cancer each year > than from all deaths. And careful studies of the effect of radiation on > human health have established that "Ubiquitous Background" radiation > exposure can be responsible for no more than about 2% of all cancer > mortality [ which is about 16% of all deaths], or about 0.3% of total cancer > deaths > > We have no need to debate the LNT regarding Fukushima, or how many cancer > deaths, if any, the TMI accident might have caused. We simply need to > consider the facts of how much radiation exposure is delivered each year to > a population like the US as an example, and what overall health effects have > been seen, at a maximum vs. the population radiation exposure of a TMI > accident or Fukushima accident. > > The US National Council on Radiation Protection in a recent major Report > [No. 160, "Ionizing Radiation Exposure of the Population of the US" -2009 ] > observed that Americans were exposed to more than 7 times as much ionizing > radiation from medical procedures in 2006 as was the case in the early > 1980s, doubling overall rad exposure in the past 25 years. In 2006, > Collective Radiation Dose [Person Sv = A Summation of all radiation > exposure] to the entire US Population per year was estimated by the NCRP: > Annual > Exposure Category Person Sv % of Total > -Ubiquitous Background 933,000 50 > -Medical 899,000 48 > -Consumer-misc. 37,400 2 > -Industrial 1,000 < 0.1 > -Nuclear Power 150 < 0.01 > > TOTAL 1,870,000 > > So Medical radiation exposure is 6,000 times higher per year, and total > population exposure is 12,000 times higher per year than that that from 100 > nuclear plants generating 20% of US electricity. > > Many anti-nukes like a Caldicott, or the so-called "Physicians for Social > Responsibility" make erroneous claims and try to divert attentions from the > reality of medical exposure as a relevant factor. These parties argue that > medical radiation exposure in CT scans and Nuclear Medicine exams has > absolute benefits to patients, outweighing any possible cancer risk. > Nonetheless, there is growing recognition of a problem with "Unnecessary" > Medical Radiation exposure. The US FDA , Center for Radiological Health has > studied medical radiation exposure for decades. About one-third of total > Medical Radiation is what the FDA terms "Unnecessary Medical Radiation > Exposure" [*1] . This results from improper calibration and device > settings, repeats due to inadequate training, and other factors which expose > patients to radiation without clinical need or benefit. FDA estimates of > "Unnecessary Medical Rad Exposure" equates to 300,000 Person Sv , or 2,000 > times more external and internal rad exposure to the US public each year > than than the 150 Person Sv from 100 nuclear power plants. > > The US population receives 150 person Sv of "Unnecessary Medical Radiation" > every 4 hours. A minor effort to avoid 150 person-Sv in medical uses, would > reduce US population exposure by an amount equal to the fixation of > anti-nuclear scaremongers and charlatans [like - .... and .... and --- -- > the list is growing since it is such an easy way for a person with no facts > to get their ego stroked] on shutting down 100 US units, and 300 more > international nuclear power plants. These scaremongers manipulate > statistics in trying to get society to stop what has been documented as the > safest form of power generation per unit energy produced, while asking the > world to squander roughly a thousand billion dollars invested in nuclear > electric generating plants operating today. > > The Three Mile nuclear plant Accident [a so-called "Disaster" in which no > one was killed because of a plant design that minimized rad releases] in > 1979 resulted in a total population exposure of about 20 person Sv. > > So, it would require about 15,000 TMI scale nuclear power plant "disasters" > per year at current Medical exposure levels to equal the FDA's estimated > annual "Unnecessary Radiation Exposure" from Medical uses of CT and > Nuclear Medicine. > > The Fukushima accident will after thorough evaluation and calculation will > have delivered much more radiation exposure than TMI. But even if it causes > 100 or 1000 times more than TMI, the total population exposure might be 2000 > person-Sv [if 100 times more] or 20,000 person-Sv [if 1,000 times more] > than TMI. Importantly, we still have a handle on the MAXIMUM number of > cancers possible per person-Sv based on the LNT which shows the claims of > anti-nuke activists to be ludicrous. > > Based on LNT, and what is likely to be an overestimate of the cancer deaths > predicted, it is estimated that one can expect at a very MAXIMUM about 1 > cancer death per 20 person-Sv delivered to a population from whatever cause > per year, expressed over the lifetime of the exposed population. So if > Fukushima results in 20,000 person-Sv of population rad exposure [ or 1,000 > times more than TMI] it can be expected that there would be an absolute > maximum of 1,000 cancer deaths expressed over the lifetime of the exposed > Japanese population. Gundersons unsupportable claims of 4,000,000 deaths > are at least 4,000 times higher than what would be expected at a very > maximum. > > What also must be recognized in a discussion of health costs, are the Public > Health benefits of operating a nuclear plant vs. an alternative. The EPA > estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that > there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and > more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air > toxics [mercury & others]. So per single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant operating > in place of a 1,000 MWe coal plant over a 30 year period since the nuke > plant began operation as with Fukushima, a single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant > will have avoided about 100 environmental deaths x 30 year = 3,000 avoided > deaths. > > As a sidebar, since the TMI accident 30 years ago which caused 20 person-Sv > and an estimated 1 cancer death, the 100 nuclear plants in the US will have > avoided about [3,000 deaths/plant over 30 years] x 100 plants = 300,000 > deaths vs. coal fired power generation. The US nuclear generating capacity > from 100 nuclear plants avoided 300,000 deaths vs. a predicted one death > from TMI. The hand-waving by scaremongers like the long list of charlatans > and con-men we have seen reveling in the attention of fawning innumerate > media since Fukushima occurred does not change these likely level of risks. > > I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time > that thd Fukushima plant complex operated it would have avoided about 13,000 > calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by > coal. > > So Fukushima's operation for 30 years will have avoided a rough estimate of > about 13 times more deaths than will theoretically result from Fukushima > having caused 20,000 person-Sv of population radiation exposure. > > The bottom line is that inflated and unsupported claims of 4,000,000 cancer > deaths by Gunderson, or Caldicot, or Busby, or Bertell from Fukushima are > disproved by the actual cancer deaths resulting from Background Radiation > and Medical Exposure. 4,000,000 deaths from Fukushima would equate to about > 400 million cancer deaths in the US PER YEAR, or more than the entire US > population dying each year from cancer from annual background and medical > rad exposure. Obviously Gundersen's claims fail a first-order analysis of > the risks involved > > Stewart Farber, MS Public Health > 203-441-8433 > > [*1] "Initiative to Reduce Unnecessary Radiation Exposure from Medical > Imaging"- Center for Devices and Radiological Health, US Food and Drub > Administration, Feb. 2010 > > ================== > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike > (DOH) > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:24 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising > radiationaccording to Gundersen > > Hi, John. > > You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from > Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases > (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), > and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can > look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly > designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a > statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the > population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom > there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that > somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of > radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at > just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in > a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also > possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and > destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it > could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick > that out of the background rate of cancer. > > I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress > have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an > individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I > would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people > were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by > anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is > especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped > and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke > "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. > While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a > human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small > exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause > by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, > and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know > that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, > we can consider those two sources equal. > > Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie > Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM > To: RADSAFE > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising > radiationaccording to Gundersen > > Christina > > There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a > result > of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the > > world since it occured? > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Helbig > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM > To: RADSAFE > Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising > radiationaccording to Gundersen > > Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels > him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb > - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile > Island - is that not correct? > > The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation > > by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) > > Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 > years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia > (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost > http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi > ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 > Dec 21, 2011 > > Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading > nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) > redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in > terms of human and total cost. [...] > > I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million > cancers > > Based on Three Mile Island studies > About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI > And that was small compared to Fukushima > And in a much lower population density > First thyroid cancer > Then lung cancer > Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that > > Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: > Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- > ionising-radiation/ > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the > RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: > http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From jjc105 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 18:08:36 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:08:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) In-Reply-To: <4EF50043.6060608@peoplepc.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EF50043.6060608@peoplepc.com> Message-ID: <1324685316.42463.YahooMailRC@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maury, I am of a similar age and also huff and puff a lot. How about a class action lawsuit? But first we need to publicize our problem. . How about---"Widespread respiratory problems in the USA. Radiation exposure is the suspected cause." Maybe we should sue ;-) Jerry ________________________________ From: Maury To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Sent: Fri, December 23, 2011 2:27:15 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) I enjoy the suspicion that at least some small accounting for my still huffing and puffing with emphysema at 84 might be accounted for by a little radioactivity from Chernobyl amd TMI ....and a Merry Christmas to all Maury&Dog ==============================.... On 12/23/2011 3:33 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > If you predict millions of deaths resulting from any given event. you will >likely gain much notoriety and acclaim in the news media. > Years later, when your prediction fails to materialize. nobody will notice. >It's a "no lose" proposition. > > Jerry Cohen > > ________________________________ > From: Stewart Farber > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing --------------------------snipped------------------ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From SAFarber at optonline.net Fri Dec 23 19:54:41 2011 From: SAFarber at optonline.net (Stewart Farber) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:54:41 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen In-Reply-To: <108728B8-D481-43D6-9162-240C2FC81F86@comcast.net> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> <108728B8-D481-43D6-9162-240C2FC81F86@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004a01ccc1df$00dca630$0295f290$@net> Howard, Don?t miss my point. What I was getting at is you should put all the health risks [mortality and morbidity ] about alternate energy cycles of the table and consider them on an equal basis [including LNT applied to radiation and conventional air pollution factors from nuclear, coal, or gas], in terms of detriment per unit energy produced, nuclear energy comes out as having the lowest health and environmental impact. I?m not arguing that the LNTH is accurate or defensible. You don?t have to try and convince legislators, regulators, and the public that LNT does not apply whether from nuclear energy or fossil fuel sources. Simply take it as a given imposed by the regulatory environment. LNT almost certainly overestimates risk from nuclear energy but so what? Nuclear ends up looking better than other cycles. Other risks from accidents or chemical risks related to other fuel cycles [mining, manufacturing components, transportation, operations, etc. ] also dwarf nuclear risk. Random issues on alternate cycles: Wind turbines have killed at least 88 people in a recent partial summary of documented accidents. Workers at wind turbines have been cut in half by falling ice, sucked into generator gearing in the nacelle [as big as a school bus], thrown off towers to their death due to a LOBA [Loss of Blade Accident] and killed by many other factors. At least 25 members of the public have been documented as killed in a variety of transportation accidents from shipping components for wind turbine construction [the blades are over 70 meters long]. I have an article in my files where a 30? diameter natural gas pipeline in TX [operating at 550 psi] exploded, killing 6 and injuring 43 at a nearby trailer park. A 20 meter length of the pipe was REPLACED THE NEXT DAY and the pipeline RESUMED OPERATION WITHIN within 24 hours. Imagine if a nuclear energy related transport accident killed 6. Anti-nuclear activists all over the world would be using it as a self-serving excuse to get face-time with the media, and call to shut down the entire nuclear industry forever. Less than a week ago, a drilling Platform for gas production was being towed to a new location off the coast of Russia and sank. It appears 50 men out of a 67 man crew on the platform during its transport have been lost and are presumed dead in the icy waters where the accident occurred. See: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/269517/20111219/russian-oil-rig-accident-death-toll-storm.htm Unless I missed it, I haven?t noticed any anti-nuclear groups of ?Concerned Scientists? or physicians for ?Social Responsibility? expressing any concern about 50 workers killed related to gas production. The silence is deafening in these ?environmentalists? ignoring other energy cycles while blatantly manipulating statistics to mislead people about nuclear power issues. Howard, it appears there is a minor typo to correct in your post. You write: ?My counter found just 15 mR/hr 100 feet from reactors and storage yard ( vs 25 mR/hr from the granite sinks in the Phoenix hotel).? What is shown as mR/hour should almost certainly read micro-R/hour [uR/hour] or you?ve got some very unusual, contaminated granite in the Phoenix hotel. Stewart Farber, MS Public Health From: Howard Long [mailto:howard.long at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 6:13 PM To: SAFarber at optonline.net; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer [ABSURDLY OVERESTIMATED ] cost from Fukushma according to Gundersen Stewart, have you been assimilated by the BORG (Bureaucrats Of Rapacious Government)?! "The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others. -" "I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operatede it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. " Do you believe political "science"?! Please observe Climategate, read State of Fear (Crichton) and Type A Behavior and Your Heart (Friedman and Rosenman). Then observe original data on COPD, lung cancer, heart disease, particulates, acid gases, mercury etc. - with dosage considered, as with radiation. I find NO credible study showing any disease more likely from proximity to a coal plant! My counter found just 15 mR/hr 100 feet from reactors and storage yard ( vs 25 mR/hr from the granite sinks in the Phoenix hotel). However, LLivermoreNL area Communities Against A Radioacrive Environment (the very name betraying their ignorance) continues agitation for intentional over-regulation to kill the nuclear industry (Rockwell) Cold kills, not coal! Stop knocking coal! Elect TEA stimulators of the economy! Howard Long MD MPH Epidemiology howard.long at comcast.net On Dec 23, 2011, at 12:25 PM, Stewart Farber wrote: Hello all, Happy Holidays to All, and a New Year filled with Peace, Love, The Media Becoming Scientifically Literate, and Charlatans Not Distorting the Truth for Their Hidden Agendas: [Please Santa, is this too much to ask?] The claims by Gundersen of millions of deaths from Fukushima are patently absurd vs. a first-order consideration. If they were within 3 or 4 orders of magnitude of being true, more people would be dying from cancer each year than from all deaths. And careful studies of the effect of radiation on human health have established that "Ubiquitous Background" radiation exposure can be responsible for no more than about 2% of all cancer mortality [ which is about 16% of all deaths], or about 0.3% of total cancer deaths We have no need to debate the LNT regarding Fukushima, or how many cancer deaths, if any, the TMI accident might have caused. We simply need to consider the facts of how much radiation exposure is delivered each year to a population like the US as an example, and what overall health effects have been seen, at a maximum vs. the population radiation exposure of a TMI accident or Fukushima accident. The US National Council on Radiation Protection in a recent major Report [No. 160, "Ionizing Radiation Exposure of the Population of the US" -2009 ] observed that Americans were exposed to more than 7 times as much ionizing radiation from medical procedures in 2006 as was the case in the early 1980s, doubling overall rad exposure in the past 25 years. In 2006, Collective Radiation Dose [Person Sv = A Summation of all radiation exposure] to the entire US Population per year was estimated by the NCRP: Annual Exposure Category Person Sv % of Total -Ubiquitous Background 933,000 50 -Medical 899,000 48 -Consumer-misc. 37,400 2 -Industrial 1,000 < 0.1 -Nuclear Power 150 < 0.01 TOTAL 1,870,000 So Medical radiation exposure is 6,000 times higher per year, and total population exposure is 12,000 times higher per year than that that from 100 nuclear plants generating 20% of US electricity. Many anti-nukes like a Caldicott, or the so-called "Physicians for Social Responsibility" make erroneous claims and try to divert attentions from the reality of medical exposure as a relevant factor. These parties argue that medical radiation exposure in CT scans and Nuclear Medicine exams has absolute benefits to patients, outweighing any possible cancer risk. Nonetheless, there is growing recognition of a problem with "Unnecessary" Medical Radiation exposure. The US FDA , Center for Radiological Health has studied medical radiation exposure for decades. About one-third of total Medical Radiation is what the FDA terms "Unnecessary Medical Radiation Exposure" [*1] . This results from improper calibration and device settings, repeats due to inadequate training, and other factors which expose patients to radiation without clinical need or benefit. FDA estimates of "Unnecessary Medical Rad Exposure" equates to 300,000 Person Sv , or 2,000 times more external and internal rad exposure to the US public each year than than the 150 Person Sv from 100 nuclear power plants. The US population receives 150 person Sv of "Unnecessary Medical Radiation" every 4 hours. A minor effort to avoid 150 person-Sv in medical uses, would reduce US population exposure by an amount equal to the fixation of anti-nuclear scaremongers and charlatans [like - .... and .... and --- -- the list is growing since it is such an easy way for a person with no facts to get their ego stroked] on shutting down 100 US units, and 300 more international nuclear power plants. These scaremongers manipulate statistics in trying to get society to stop what has been documented as the safest form of power generation per unit energy produced, while asking the world to squander roughly a thousand billion dollars invested in nuclear electric generating plants operating today. The Three Mile nuclear plant Accident [a so-called "Disaster" in which no one was killed because of a plant design that minimized rad releases] in 1979 resulted in a total population exposure of about 20 person Sv. So, it would require about 15,000 TMI scale nuclear power plant "disasters" per year at current Medical exposure levels to equal the FDA's estimated annual "Unnecessary Radiation Exposure" from Medical uses of CT and Nuclear Medicine. The Fukushima accident will after thorough evaluation and calculation will have delivered much more radiation exposure than TMI. But even if it causes 100 or 1000 times more than TMI, the total population exposure might be 2000 person-Sv [if 100 times more] or 20,000 person-Sv [if 1,000 times more] than TMI. Importantly, we still have a handle on the MAXIMUM number of cancers possible per person-Sv based on the LNT which shows the claims of anti-nuke activists to be ludicrous. Based on LNT, and what is likely to be an overestimate of the cancer deaths predicted, it is estimated that one can expect at a very MAXIMUM about 1 cancer death per 20 person-Sv delivered to a population from whatever cause per year, expressed over the lifetime of the exposed population. So if Fukushima results in 20,000 person-Sv of population rad exposure [ or 1,000 times more than TMI] it can be expected that there would be an absolute maximum of 1,000 cancer deaths expressed over the lifetime of the exposed Japanese population. Gundersons unsupportable claims of 4,000,000 deaths are at least 4,000 times higher than what would be expected at a very maximum. What also must be recognized in a discussion of health costs, are the Public Health benefits of operating a nuclear plant vs. an alternative. The EPA estimates that for EACH large coal plant in the US, one can calculate that there will be 100 deaths per year from COPD, lung cancer, heart disease and more causes, based on exposure to fine particulates, acid gases, and air toxics [mercury & others]. So per single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant operating in place of a 1,000 MWe coal plant over a 30 year period since the nuke plant began operation as with Fukushima, a single 1,000 MWe nuclear plant will have avoided about 100 environmental deaths x 30 year = 3,000 avoided deaths. As a sidebar, since the TMI accident 30 years ago which caused 20 person-Sv and an estimated 1 cancer death, the 100 nuclear plants in the US will have avoided about [3,000 deaths/plant over 30 years] x 100 plants = 300,000 deaths vs. coal fired power generation. The US nuclear generating capacity from 100 nuclear plants avoided 300,000 deaths vs. a predicted one death from TMI. The hand-waving by scaremongers like the long list of charlatans and con-men we have seen reveling in the attention of fawning innumerate media since Fukushima occurred does not change these likely level of risks. I think Fukushima had a generating capacity of 4,400 MWe, so over the time that thd Fukushima plant complex operated it would have avoided about 13,000 calculated excess deaths had the generation it supplied been supplied by coal. So Fukushima's operation for 30 years will have avoided a rough estimate of about 13 times more deaths than will theoretically result from Fukushima having caused 20,000 person-Sv of population radiation exposure. The bottom line is that inflated and unsupported claims of 4,000,000 cancer deaths by Gunderson, or Caldicot, or Busby, or Bertell from Fukushima are disproved by the actual cancer deaths resulting from Background Radiation and Medical Exposure. 4,000,000 deaths from Fukushima would equate to about 400 million cancer deaths in the US PER YEAR, or more than the entire US population dying each year from cancer from annual background and medical rad exposure. Obviously Gundersen's claims fail a first-order analysis of the risks involved Stewart Farber, MS Public Health 203-441-8433 [*1] "Initiative to Reduce Unnecessary Radiation Exposure from Medical Imaging"- Center for Devices and Radiological Health, US Food and Drub Administration, Feb. 2010 ================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike (DOH) Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 12:24 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Hi, John. You are correct that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers resulted from Three Mile Island. We can, however, look at the releases (overwhelmingly thermally hot noble gasses, that went up and dispersed), and conclude there is very little source term to cause cancer. We can look at the number of well done studies (as opposed to the poorly designed, often lacking in evidence studies) that have not found a statistically significant increase in the cancer rate among the population that might conceivably been exposed, let alone those for whom there is a good reason to believe were exposed. It is possible that somewhere there are people who were exposed to some number of atoms of radioactive material from TMI, and that one of those atoms decayed at just the right time and in just the right place to induce a mutation in a cell, causing it be reproduce in an uncontrolled manner. It is also possible that that person's anti-cancer systems failed to detect and destroy that particular cancer before it manifested to the level it could be detected my medical science. However, to date we can't pick that out of the background rate of cancer. I would also submit that the evidence is good that high levels of stress have been demonstrated to have a number of negative effects on an individual's wellbeing, including their ability to fight cancer. I would submit that as bad at TMI was engineering-wise, many, many people were made to feel more stressed that the actual hazard warranted by anti-nuke "experts" saying things they knew to be false. This is especially true in the subsequent years, after the release had stopped and the released material dispersed and decayed away, but the anti-nuke "experts" strove to keep stress high for their own political reasons. While it is at least as difficult to measure stress induced cancer in a human population as it is to measure radiation induced cancer from small exposures, I submit that we cannot KNOW that "zero" cancers were cause by the irresponsible utterances of the anti-nuke community in general, and their most noted spokespersons in particular. Since we cannot know that either that accident or the anti-nuke response caused any cancers, we can consider those two sources equal. Thus, it is not incorrect to say it can be demonstrated that Arnie Gundersen personally has caused as many cancers as TMI did. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:51 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Christina There is no way that we could know that "there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island". Has there been "no cancers" in that region of the world since it occured? John -----Original Message----- From: Roger Helbig Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:18 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiationaccording to Gundersen Gundersen really has a knack for outdoing Busby or maybe just channels him - he certainly peddles hype and hysteria with considerable aplomb - amazing since there were zero cancers as a result of Three Mile Island - is that not correct? The coming cancer cost from Fukushma ionising radiation by Christina MacPherson ( christinamacpherson at gmail.com ) Nuclear Expert: 1,000,000 cancers from Fukushima in Japan over next 20 years ENE News - First thyroid, then lung, organ, brain, leukemia (VIDEO) Title: Fukushima - Total Cost http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-forecasts-1000000-cancers-from-fukushi ma-in-japan-first-thyroid-then-lung-organ-brain-leukemia-vide0 Dec 21, 2011 Description: Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds Associates (a leading nuclear expert) and Warren Pollock (http://www.wepollock.com ) redefine the Fukushima nuclear incidents (meltdowns and explosions) in terms of human and total cost. [...] I think the 20 year cost from Fukushima will be about one million cancers Based on Three Mile Island studies About a 20% increase in lung cancer 3-5 years after TMI And that was small compared to Fukushima And in a much lower population density First thyroid cancer Then lung cancer Then organ cancer, leukemia, brain cancer, things like that Christina MacPherson | December 23, 2011 at 8:09 am | Categories: Resources -audiovicual | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-5mE Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2011/12/23/the-coming-cancer-cost-from-fukushma- ionising-radiation/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From maurysis at peoplepc.com Fri Dec 23 22:37:16 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:37:16 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) In-Reply-To: <1324685316.42463.YahooMailRC@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EF50043.6060608@peoplepc.com> <1324685316.42463.YahooMailRC@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EF556FC.2080305@peoplepc.com> Hi Jerry, I believe a little 'extra ionizing radiation' has prolonged my life so I welcome the occasional chest x-rays, MRIs, and so on. Don't think I can sue though -- enjoyed smoking a pack a day until quad bypass 12 years ago, but progress of the emphysema has only slowed -- so I keep trying to blow their house in, but without success Maybe we could launch a class action against HHS for failure to provide required radiation to treat our respiratory problem???? Maury&Dog =============================== On 12/23/2011 6:08 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > Maury, > I am of a similar age and also huff and puff a lot. How about a class action > lawsuit? But first we need to publicize our problem. . How about---"Widespread > respiratory problems in the USA. Radiation exposure is the suspected cause." > Maybe we should sue ;-) > Jerry > > > > ________________________________ > From: Maury > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Sent: Fri, December 23, 2011 2:27:15 PM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) > > I enjoy the suspicion that at least some small accounting for my still -----------------------snipped------------------ From jjc105 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 23:17:35 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) In-Reply-To: <4EF556FC.2080305@peoplepc.com> References: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505B90@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> <001801ccc1b0$f9687880$ec396980$@net> <1324675992.79938.YahooMailRC@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EF50043.6060608@peoplepc.com> <1324685316.42463.YahooMailRC@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EF556FC.2080305@peoplepc.com> Message-ID: <1324703855.89065.YahooMailRC@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> M&D, You are probably right. As an old hormesis afficianado, I have advocated adding tritium to the our drinking water so that those of us who unfortunately live in radiation deficient areas can achieve optimal dose levels. For some strange reason, I have been unable to convince government officials of the soundness of this approach. Perhaps a lawsuit against HHS could be a good idea. At least, it might get their attention. Jerry ________________________________ From: Maury To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Fri, December 23, 2011 8:37:16 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) Hi Jerry, I believe a little 'extra ionizing radiation' has prolonged my life so I welcome the occasional chest x-rays, MRIs, and so on. Don't think I can sue though -- enjoyed smoking a pack a day until quad bypass 12 years ago, but progress of the emphysema has only slowed -- so I keep trying to blow their house in, but without success Maybe we could launch a class action against HHS for failure to provide required radiation to treat our respiratory problem???? Maury&Dog =============================== On 12/23/2011 6:08 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > Maury, > I am of a similar age and also huff and puff a lot. How about a class action > lawsuit? But first we need to publicize our problem. . How about---"Widespread > respiratory problems in the USA. Radiation exposure is the suspected cause." > Maybe we should sue ;-) > Jerry > > > > ________________________________ > From: Maury > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > Sent: Fri, December 23, 2011 2:27:15 PM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Journalism 101 (The way it works) > > I enjoy the suspicion that at least some small accounting for my still -----------------------snipped------------------ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From JPreisig at aol.com Mon Dec 26 21:21:24 2011 From: JPreisig at aol.com (JPreisig at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 22:21:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] CERN new particle Message-ID: <78a7.fd96f7.3c2a93b4@aol.com> Hi Radsafe, From: _jpreisig at aol.com_ (mailto:jpreisig at aol.com) . News of the discovery of the new particle at CERN LHC was actually reported in Google Science news in the last few weeks. My Bad... Also google science news lately reported something about Chinese scientists finding microfossils with micro-organism embryo's (amoeba's???) from about 600 million years ago. Paleo people seemed interested in this. Have a good week and Happy 2012!!!! Regards, Joseph R. (Joe) Preisig, PhD PS --- was interested to hear about time pictures of DNA... Wow!!!!! Using Atomic Force Microscopes and/or Scanning Transmission Electron Microscopes, one can see/visualize individual atoms or rows of atoms --- some of these images are sometimes seen in Physics Today articles and/or advertisements. Also, at Miami (Ohio) University and elsewhere, there are physicists who can isolate individual neutral atoms in space, and do science with them (scattering, etc????)... Neat!!!! From rwhelbig at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 07:18:49 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:18:49 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Japanese Commission on Fukushima Preliminary Report Message-ID: Thanks to Tokyo AP reporter Yuri Kageyama, here is a link to the Summary of the Preliminary Report - the main site indicates that the full preliminary report is being translated into English Roger Helbig http://icanps.go.jp/eng/111226ExecutiveSummary.pdf From rwhelbig at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 07:31:19 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:31:19 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Idea - Self-Sufficient Air Droppable Radiation Monitoring Stations Message-ID: The report mentions that much of the existing radiation monitoring network was washed away or made inoperable by loss of power due to earthquake damage - that made me wonder why there was not some sort of air-droppable self-sufficient radiation monitoring station - surely the technology exists to make such units - it would just be a matter of cost and of stocking them somewhere - just an idea - Roger On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Roger Helbig wrote: > Thanks to Tokyo AP reporter Yuri Kageyama, here is a link to the > Summary of the Preliminary Report - the main site indicates that the > full preliminary report is being translated into English > > Roger Helbig > > http://icanps.go.jp/eng/111226ExecutiveSummary.pdf From jimitche at gw.dec.state.ny.us Tue Dec 27 08:07:44 2011 From: jimitche at gw.dec.state.ny.us (John Mitchell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:07:44 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Surplus of Harshaw TLD reader and Irradiator Message-ID: <4EF98AE00200009C0009371B@gwsmtp.dec.state.ny.us> Dear Radsafers: The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation will surplus an operational (with a little routine maintenance) Harshaw Thermoluminescent Dosimeter (TLD) Reader (Model 6600) and Irradiator (Model 6610) System. The TLD Irradiator contains a licensable cesium-137 radioactive source. An additional piece of laboratory equipment in need of surplussing is a Tennelec Low Background LB1000 gross alpha/gross beta proportional counter. This is an older rack-mounted stand-alone design (not computer controlled) instrument was never put into use by the Department. Anyone interested in using this piece of equipment would need to purchase a licensable alpha/beta source in order to operate it. Since this is State owned equipment, DEC would prefer to surplus these laboratory instruments to a New York State entity (governmental or educational) which could use them and is capable of accepting responsibility for the radioactive material. If a New York entity does not express an interest, out-of-state entities would be considered. Interested parties should contact John Mitchell at jimitche at gw.dec.state.ny.us. Thank you in advance. John Mitchell New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Division of Environmental Remediation Remedial Bureau A Radiological Sites Section 625 Broadway Albany, NY 12233-7255 From tdc at xrayted.com Tue Dec 27 10:14:27 2011 From: tdc at xrayted.com (Ted de Castro) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 08:14:27 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Idea - Self-Sufficient Air Droppable Radiation Monitoring Stations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF9EEE3.7070904@xrayted.com> It certainly is. While I was at LBNL I built a network of radiation monitoring stations - gamma and neutron (presented in a paper at an HPS meeting). While they are housed and wired - ONE of the stations was radio linked and solar powered and so could easily be made air droppable. The electronics was custom made for us by Health Physics Instruments and derived from a product of theirs which was a completely self contained unit (gamma only) that you could drop off and pick up later to get the readings. So yes - the pieces already exist - its just the packaging. On 12/27/2011 5:31 AM, Roger Helbig wrote: > The report mentions that much of the existing radiation monitoring > network was washed away or made inoperable by loss of power due to > earthquake damage - that made me wonder why there was not some sort of > air-droppable self-sufficient radiation monitoring station - surely > the technology exists to make such units - it would just be a matter > of cost and of stocking them somewhere - just an idea - > > Roger > > > On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Roger Helbig wrote: >> Thanks to Tokyo AP reporter Yuri Kageyama, here is a link to the >> Summary of the Preliminary Report - the main site indicates that the >> full preliminary report is being translated into English >> >> Roger Helbig >> >> http://icanps.go.jp/eng/111226ExecutiveSummary.pdf > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Tue Dec 27 22:57:24 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:57:24 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. References: Message-ID: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> Forwarded. Begin forwarded message: > From: Laurence F Friedman > Subject: Indian Point License extension > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island accident, wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year extension of the Indian Point operating license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html > > Letters responding to Gilinsky?s op-ed are here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments were not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island more than half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn?t damaged. The containment wasn?t even challenged. The report of the international commission that investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. Scroll down to ?Three Mile Island.? In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima came from the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > Illinois Institute of Technology > Room 182, Life Science > 3101 South Dearborn > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > (312) 842-1789 > friedmanla at iit.edu > From DouglasM at DNFSB.GOV Wed Dec 28 08:59:52 2011 From: DouglasM at DNFSB.GOV (Douglas Minnema) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 09:59:52 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> Message-ID: <4EFAE897.CA2D.0024.0@DNFSB.GOV> I have a question for the group regarding Dr. Friedman's comments below. It was my understanding that there was a general consensus that the primary releases at Fukushima came from the damaged reactors, and that the spent fuel in the fuel pools was not significantly damaged. Associated with that conclusion was the hypothesis that the hydrogen explosion in reactor 4 was due to an inadvertent leak path from one of the other reactors. At least, that was the understanding as of the special session held at the summer ANS conference. Is there new information that has changed that understanding? Thanks, Doug Minnema, PhD, CHP >>> Jeff Terry 12/27/2011 11:57 PM >>> Forwarded. Begin forwarded message: > From: Laurence F Friedman > Subject: Indian Point License extension > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island accident, wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year extension of the Indian Point operating license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html > > Letters responding to Gilinsky?s op-ed are here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments were not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island more than half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn?t damaged. The containment wasn?t even challenged. The report of the international commission that investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. Scroll down to ?Three Mile Island.? In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima came from the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > Illinois Institute of Technology > Room 182, Life Science > 3101 South Dearborn > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > (312) 842-1789 > friedmanla at iit.edu > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From idias at interchange.ubc.ca Wed Dec 28 12:07:05 2011 From: idias at interchange.ubc.ca (John R Johnson) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:07:05 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <4EFAE897.CA2D.0024.0@DNFSB.GOV> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <4EFAE897.CA2D.0024.0@DNFSB.GOV> Message-ID: <11AF59A6A801436EA24C365C20A22CB6@userHP> Doug I agree with you, but I always point out to my non HP friends that the total deaths from the event was not due to, or will be, radiation John, PhD -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Minnema Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:59 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Cc: John Abrefah Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. I have a question for the group regarding Dr. Friedman's comments below. It was my understanding that there was a general consensus that the primary releases at Fukushima came from the damaged reactors, and that the spent fuel in the fuel pools was not significantly damaged. Associated with that conclusion was the hypothesis that the hydrogen explosion in reactor 4 was due to an inadvertent leak path from one of the other reactors. At least, that was the understanding as of the special session held at the summer ANS conference. Is there new information that has changed that understanding? Thanks, Doug Minnema, PhD, CHP >>> Jeff Terry 12/27/2011 11:57 PM >>> Forwarded. Begin forwarded message: > From: Laurence F Friedman > Subject: Indian Point License extension > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island accident, wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year extension of the Indian Point operating license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html > > Letters responding to Gilinsky?s op-ed are here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments were not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island more than half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn?t damaged. The containment wasn?t even challenged. The report of the international commission that investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. Scroll down to ?Three Mile Island.? In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima came from the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > Illinois Institute of Technology > Room 182, Life Science > 3101 South Dearborn > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > (312) 842-1789 > friedmanla at iit.edu > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Wed Dec 28 12:19:33 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:19:33 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <4EFAE897.CA2D.0024.0@DNFSB.GOV> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <4EFAE897.CA2D.0024.0@DNFSB.GOV> Message-ID: <53CCB0C6-33AD-42FB-8180-72050B8D0FEF@iit.edu> Hi Doug, The INPO report (11-005) was pretty adamant with regard to the spent fuel pools. "Subsequent analyses and inspections determined that the spent fuel pool water levels never dropped below the top of fuel in any spent fuel pool and that no significant fuel damage had occurred. Current investigation results indicate that any potential fuel damage may have been caused by debris from the reactor building explosions." It also states the the H2 explosion in Unit 4 was due to gas flow from Unit 3. While I think that far more will be known in the future when serious exploration of the site occurs. I think that both of this analysis is likely to be the case. I don't think that they could rule out loss of water inventory in the spent fuel pools which may have increased the on-site dose. This certainly implies that the release of radioactive materials was from the reactor cores and not the spent fuel pools. Obviously, time will allow for better analysis of the situation. The people that I talked to who were on site during the initial stages of the event reported really bad conditions. I think the initial reporting had a large amount of inaccurate information and the more recent analysis like the INPO report will be proven far more accurate. Jeff On Dec 28, 2011, at 8:59 AM, Douglas Minnema wrote: > > I have a question for the group regarding Dr. Friedman's comments > below. > > It was my understanding that there was a general consensus that the > primary releases at Fukushima came from the damaged reactors, and that > the spent fuel in the fuel pools was not significantly damaged. > Associated with that conclusion was the hypothesis that the hydrogen > explosion in reactor 4 was due to an inadvertent leak path from one of > the other reactors. > > At least, that was the understanding as of the special session held at > the summer ANS conference. Is there new information that has changed > that understanding? > > Thanks, > > Doug Minnema, PhD, CHP > >>>> Jeff Terry 12/27/2011 11:57 PM >>> > Forwarded. > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Laurence F Friedman >> Subject: Indian Point License extension >> Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST >> To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> >> >> Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island > accident, wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the > 20-year extension of the Indian Point operating > license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html >> >> Letters responding to Gilinsky?s op-ed are here > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. >> >> While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that > containments were not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at > Three Mile Island more than half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel > wasn?t damaged. The containment wasn?t even challenged. The report of > the international commission that investigated the condition of the > pressure vessel is available from this page > http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down to ?Three Mile Island.? In any case, most of the releases at > Fukushima came from the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. >> >> Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP >> Senior Lecturer, Physics Department >> Illinois Institute of Technology >> Room 182, Life Science >> 3101 South Dearborn >> Chicago, IL 60616-3793 >> (312) 842-1789 >> friedmanla at iit.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From thomas.obrien at nist.gov Wed Dec 28 12:35:33 2011 From: thomas.obrien at nist.gov (O'Brien, Thomas) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:35:33 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] National Institute of Standards and Technology - Safety and Health (non-Radiological) Position Announcement Message-ID: <2D10722CDD332D4B8D9E287332F92B963B85DE5062@MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov> All- This position is my counterpart in the non-radiological world at NIST. A summary is below. The USAJOBS link is: http://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/306019800. Please direct questions to the POC in the announcement. Please note the 1/10/12 deadline. A Safe and Healthful New Year to all ! DUTIES: The person selected to fill this position will serve as the Chief of the Gaithersburg Safety, Health, and Environment Division (GSHED) and will provide leadership to Safety, Health, and Environment (SH&E) professionals in a multidisciplinary laboratory-based research organization in the areas of industrial hygiene, occupational safety, fire and life safety, and environmental management; ensure that customer and stakeholders needs are met so that NIST's scientists, engineers, and technical, and administrative employees and visitors can carry out their work safely; monitor safety services and programs to further the achievement of the division's goals and objectives and to improve the organization's safety products, services, and service delivery; and plan, direct, and lead the implementation of new safety programs. As Chief, Gaithersburg Safety, Health, and Environment Division (GSHED), the incumbent is responsible for supporting efforts to develop and maintain NIST's safety, health, and environmental (SH&E) management systems; for providing SH&E services to NIST Gaithersburg in the areas of industrial hygiene, occupational safety, fire and life safety, and environmental management; and for continually improving GSHED's products, services, and service delivery. SALARY RANGE: $123,758.00 to $155,500.00 / Per Year OPEN PERIOD: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 to Tuesday, January 10, 2012 SERIES & GRADE: ZA-0018-05 POSITION INFORMATION: Career or Career-Conditional Appointment - Full-time Permanent PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 05 DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy(s) in the following locations: Gaithersburg , MD View Map WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED: All qualified U.S. citizens ***************************************************** Tom O'Brien M.S., CHP Radiation Safety Officer Chief, Radiation Safety Division Office of Safety, Health and Environment National Institute of Standards & Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Mail Stop 1731 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8462 301-975-5800 Voice 301-975-4893 FAX Radiation Safety Website: http://safety.nist.gov/radiation_safety/ ******************************************************* From sjd at swcp.com Wed Dec 28 20:54:50 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:54:50 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> Message-ID: <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 28 I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and tsunami. Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? Steven Dapra At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: >Forwarded. > >Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island > accident, wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the > 20-year extension of the Indian Point operating > license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that > containments were not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at > Three Mile Island more than half the fuel melted and the pressure > vessel wasn't damaged. The containment wasn't even challenged. The > report of the international commission that investigated the > condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page > http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down to "Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the > releases at Fukushima came from the spent fuel pools, not the > reactors themselves. > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > Room 182, Life Science > > 3101 South Dearborn > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > (312) 842-1789 > > friedmanla at iit.edu From rwhelbig at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 05:01:39 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:01:39 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] =?windows-1252?q?Mark_Cooper_says_USA=92s_=91nuclear_?= =?windows-1252?q?renaissance=92_is_just_not_going_to_happen?= Message-ID: The anti-nukes are crowing - "USA?s ?nuclear renaissance? is just not going to?happen" posted by Christina MacPherson Report: U.S. nuclear renaissance unlikely after Fukushima?Los Angeles Times, December 28, 2011?A new study released Wednesday said that the regulatory fallout from the Fukushima power plant?disaster in Japan?in March?will short-circuit the U.S.?nuclear renaissance of new power plant construction. The report, "Nuclear Safety and Nuclear Economics,"?was written and presented by Mark Cooper, a frequent critic of the nuclear power industry. The report can be found?here. Cooper is a senior fellow for economic analysis at the Institute for Energy and the Environment at the Vermont Law School. Cooper said that past nuclear disasters, such as the one at the Three Mile Island power plant in Pennsylvania in 1979, have tended to greatly raise regulatory barriers and have also severely multiplied the cost of reactor construction. After Three Mile Island, for example, the report said, the cost of nuclear power plant construction doubled in most cases and trebled or quadrupled in some rare instances. "This is an important moment to compare what is really likely to happen over the next 10 years with the industry?s expectations" of a nuclear renaissance, Cooper said. "When that comparison is performed properly, it becomes clear that we are witnessing not a revival but a collapse in expectations for new reactor construction." The report comes just days after a panel appointed by the Japanese government released a scathing assessment of the reponse to the disaster, which was caused when a huge earthquake generated a tsunami that struck the facility.... A recently updated?online report?by the?World Nuclear Assn.?said that as few as four of the 26 new nuclear facilities that have been proposed or?planned?in the U.S. will be finished by 2020. But it did not mention?Fukushima and instead said the primary reason was the fact that a boom in domestic natural gas production has "put the economic viability of some of these projects in doubt." http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/12/a-new-study-released-today-said-that-theregulatory-fallout-from-the-fukushima-power-plantdisaster-in-japan-last-marchwill-pro.html From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Thu Dec 29 12:39:22 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:39:22 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] =?utf-8?q?Mark_Cooper_says_USA=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98nuc?= =?utf-8?q?lear_renaissance=E2=80=99_is_just_not_going_to_happen?= Message-ID: <20111229193924.32V0I.60801.root@viefep21.chello.at> Roger, How can you take serious any comment by somebody (Christina MacPherson, obviously a journalist) or a Mark Cooper, according to your post a "senior fellow of economic analysis etc. etc.". Will they determine the future of nuclear power? Probably their like will, if nobody dares to stand against those self appointed "experts" on nuclear issues. Yes, it is the almost openly declared goal of these people as well as for so-called environmental groups, the worst of them is the multinational profit organisation called Greenpeace, to block (not only) nuclear power but also any hydroelectric power by "legal" tricks, which have already delayed in many countries all kind of power plants or they were even abandoned (you should in the USA know these stories very well!) Of course absurd distributions about the "deadly risks, the cancer incidences etc." are another important mean of influencing the public. The other hundreds of thousands or even millions of deaths caused by other tsunamis, hurricans, inundations, avalanches, diseases, malnourishment etc . etc. are never mentioned by those environmental groups -well, they do not serve their purpose. A good question is in what time we live - paranoia time? I recommend to take such comments not serious. This journal might seem to be important in a very small (!!!) area of the world, but sure it is not worldwide! A caveat not only for you but to many (most) other US-users of RADSAFE: Do not forget, that this list is called "International Radiation Protection Mailing List". My impression is and this has been confirmed by many collegues from non-US countries that unfortunately those collegues feel to be "quenched" by the US collegues with their contributions and questions on US legislation and their comments on US specific problems, sorry Roger, but yours is a striking example. It seems on RADSAFE that the radiation protection world ends at the borders of the USA, with very sporiadic questions mostly from neighbouring countries. And then there might have been one and another sting by Best regards, Franz > The anti-nukes are crowing - > > "USA?s ?nuclear renaissance? is just not going to?happen" > > posted by Christina MacPherson > > Report: U.S. nuclear renaissance unlikely after Fukushima?Los Angeles > Times, December 28, 2011?A new study released Wednesday said that the > regulatory fallout from the Fukushima power plant?disaster in Japan?in > March?will short-circuit the U.S.?nuclear renaissance of new power > plant construction. > > The report, "Nuclear Safety and Nuclear Economics,"?was written and > presented by Mark Cooper, a frequent critic of the nuclear power > industry. The report can be found?here. Cooper is a senior fellow for > economic analysis at the Institute for Energy and the Environment at > the Vermont Law School. > > Cooper said that past nuclear disasters, such as the one at the Three > Mile Island power plant in Pennsylvania in 1979, have tended to > greatly raise regulatory barriers and have also severely multiplied > the cost of reactor construction. After Three Mile Island, for > example, the report said, the cost of nuclear power plant construction > doubled in most cases and trebled or quadrupled in some rare > instances. > > "This is an important moment to compare what is really likely to > happen over the next 10 years with the industry?s expectations" of a > nuclear renaissance, Cooper said. "When that comparison is performed > properly, it becomes clear that we are witnessing not a revival but a > collapse in expectations for new reactor construction." > > The report comes just days after a panel appointed by the Japanese > government released a scathing assessment of the reponse to the > disaster, which was caused when a huge earthquake generated a tsunami > that struck the facility.... > > A recently updated?online report?by the?World Nuclear Assn.?said that > as few as four of the 26 new nuclear facilities that have been > proposed or?planned?in the U.S. will be finished by 2020. But it did > not mention?Fukushima and instead said the primary reason was the fact > that a boom in domestic natural gas production has "put the economic > viability of some of these projects in doubt." > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/12/a-new-study-released-today-said-that-theregulatory-fallout-from-the-fukushima-power-plantdisaster-in-japan-last-marchwill-pro.html > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From jjc105 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 15:25:22 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" ________________________________ From: Steven Dapra To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 28 I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and tsunami. Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? Steven Dapra At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > Forwarded. > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island accident, >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year extension of >the Indian Point operating >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-the-next-fukushima.html > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-alike-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments were >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island more than >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The containment >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. Scroll down to >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima came from >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > Room 182, Life Science > > 3101 South Dearborn > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > (312) 842-1789 > > friedmanla at iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Thu Dec 29 19:19:08 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 01:19:08 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 29 Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) Steven Dapra At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > >________________________________ >From: Steven Dapra >To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > >Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > >Dec. 28 > > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every >reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and >tsunami. Is >that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor > vessel? Would it melt >through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? > >Steven Dapra > > > >At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > > Forwarded. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile > Island accident, > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year > extension of > >the Indian Point operating > >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t > he-next-fukushima.html > > > > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a > like-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that > containments were > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile > Island more than > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The > containment > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available > from this page > >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down to > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at > Fukushima came from > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > > Room 182, Life Science > > > 3101 South Dearborn > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > > (312) 842-1789 > > > friedmanla at iit.edu From jjc105 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 22:52:30 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Steven et al, It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually believe the horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. Unfortunately, so do many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at the site boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My favorite occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According to one witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem trivial in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los Angelas and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and maybe even the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no matter how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. ________________________________ From: Steven Dapra To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 29 Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) Steven Dapra At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > > ________________________________ > From: Steven Dapra > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. > > Dec. 28 > > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and tsunami. >Is > that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it melt > through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? > > Steven Dapra > > > > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > > Forwarded. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island accident, > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year extension of > >the Indian Point operating > >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t >he-next-fukushima.html > > > > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a >like-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments were > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island more than > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The containment > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from this page > >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. Scroll down to > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima came from > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > > Room 182, Life Science > > > 3101 South Dearborn > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > > (312) 842-1789 > > > friedmanla at iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From maurysis at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 29 23:59:45 2011 From: maurysis at peoplepc.com (Maury) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 23:59:45 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EFD5351.2070702@peoplepc.com> Aha! see, here at last is the rationale for my seriously absurd opinions -- I knew it had to be buried in there somewhere. Whee!!! A 400 ft tsunami -- what a sight that would be Happy coming New Year to all anyway, Maury&Dog ============================== On 12/29/2011 10:52 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > Steven et al, > It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually believe the horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. Unfortunately, so do many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at the site boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My favorite occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According to one witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem trivial in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los Angelas and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and maybe even the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no matter how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > > ________________________________ > From: Steven Dapra > To: Jerry Cohen; The International Radiation Protection > (Health Physics) Mailing List > Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. > > Dec. 29 > > Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > > Steven Dapra > > > At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >> You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" >> -------------------snipped---------------------- From sjd at swcp.com Fri Dec 30 09:39:28 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:39:28 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201112301539.pBUFdArw091854@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 30 I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the rational world. Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > >________________________________ >From: Steven Dapra >To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation Protection >(Health Physics) Mailing List >Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > >Dec. 29 > > Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > >Steven Dapra > > >At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steven Dapra > > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > > > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > > > > Dec. 28 > > > > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every > > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake > and tsunami. > >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > > > > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it >melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > > > Forwarded. > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island >accident, > > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year > extension of > > >the Indian Point operating > > >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t > >he-next-fukushima.html > > > > > > > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a > >like-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > > > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments >were > > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile > Island more than > > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The > containment > > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that > > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available > from this page > > >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down >to > > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at > Fukushima came from > > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > > > Room 182, Life Science > > > > 3101 South Dearborn > > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > > > (312) 842-1789 > > > > friedmanla at iit.edu From donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov Fri Dec 30 09:51:58 2011 From: donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov (Mercado, Donald Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC]) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:51:58 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <4EFD5351.2070702@peoplepc.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EFD5351.2070702@peoplepc.com> Message-ID: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE211280D795CD@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> Talk about your radical surfing! Cowabunga! ________________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Maury [maurysis at peoplepc.com] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 9:59 PM To: Jerry Cohen; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Aha! see, here at last is the rationale for my seriously absurd opinions -- I knew it had to be buried in there somewhere. Whee!!! A 400 ft tsunami -- what a sight that would be Happy coming New Year to all anyway, Maury&Dog ============================== On 12/29/2011 10:52 PM, Jerry Cohen wrote: > Steven et al, > It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually believe the horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. Unfortunately, so do many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at the site boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My favorite occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According to one witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem trivial in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los Angelas and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and maybe even the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no matter how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > > ________________________________ > From: Steven Dapra > To: Jerry Cohen; The International Radiation Protection > (Health Physics) Mailing List > Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. > > Dec. 29 > > Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > > Steven Dapra > > > At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >> You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" >> -------------------snipped---------------------- _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Fri Dec 30 09:54:18 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:54:18 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201112301554.pBUFs1Uu022273@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 30 Most tsunamis seem to be no more than 30 meters high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_tsunamis Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] From doctorbill34 at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 10:19:14 2011 From: doctorbill34 at gmail.com (William Lipton) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:19:14 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <201112301539.pBUFdArw091854@ame7.swcp.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112301539.pBUFdArw091854@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not funny. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 30 > > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > rational world. > > Steven Dapra > > > > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > >> Steven et al, >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >> believe the >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >> Unfortunately, so do >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >> airplanes, >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >> the site >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >> favorite >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >> to one >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >> 400 >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >> trivial >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >> Angelas >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >> maybe even >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >> matter >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >> >> ______________________________**__ >> From: Steven Dapra >> To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation >> Protection >> (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >> extension. >> >> Dec. 29 >> >> Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) >> >> Steven Dapra >> >> >> At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >> > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" >> > >> > ______________________________**__ >> > From: Steven Dapra >> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> > >> > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM >> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >> extension. >> > >> > Dec. 28 >> > >> > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe >> every >> > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and >> tsunami. >> >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? >> > >> > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would >> it >> melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt >> through? >> > >> > Steven Dapra >> > >> > >> > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: >> > > Forwarded. >> > > >> > > Begin forwarded message: >> > > >> > > > From: Laurence F Friedman >> > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension >> > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST >> > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island >> accident, >> > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year >> extension of >> > >the Indian Point operating >> > >license.http://www.nytimes.**com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-** >> indian-point-t >> >he-next-fukushima.html >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here >> > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/**12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-** >> fukushima-a >> >like-or-not.html?_r=1. >> > > >> > > > >> > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that >> containments >> were >> > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island >> more than >> > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The >> containment >> > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that >> > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from >> this page >> > >http://guides.library.iit.**edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=**205068. >> Scroll down >> to >> > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima >> came from >> > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. >> > > > >> > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP >> > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department >> > > > Illinois Institute of Technology >> > > > Room 182, Life Science >> > > > 3101 South Dearborn >> > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 >> > > > (312) 842-1789 >> > > > friedmanla at iit.edu >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/** > radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:24:04 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:24:04 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <912648.52943.qm@smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> brownsferry and tmi was human error .bessie was missed on inspections. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: William Lipton To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Friday, December 30, 2011 11:19:14 AM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not funny. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 30 > > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > rational world. > > Steven Dapra > > > > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > >> Steven et al, >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >> believe the >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >> Unfortunately, so do >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >> airplanes, >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >> the site >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >> favorite >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >> to one >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >> 400 >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >> trivial >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >> Angelas >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >> maybe even >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >> matter >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >> >> ______________________________**__ >> From: Steven Dapra >> To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation >> Protection >> (Health Physics) Mailing List >> Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >> extension. >> >> Dec. 29 >> >> Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) >> >> Steven Dapra >> >> >> At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >> > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" >> > >> > ______________________________**__ >> > From: Steven Dapra >> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List >> > >> > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM >> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >> extension. >> > >> > Dec. 28 >> > >> > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe >> every >> > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and >> tsunami. >> >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? >> > >> > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would >> it >> melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt >> through? >> > >> > Steven Dapra >> > >> > >> > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: >> > > Forwarded. >> > > >> > > Begin forwarded message: >> > > >> > > > From: Laurence F Friedman >> > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension >> > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST >> > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island >> accident, >> > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year >> extension of >> > >the Indian Point operating >> > >license.http://www.nytimes.**com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-** >> indian-point-t >> >he-next-fukushima.html >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here >> > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/**12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-** >> fukushima-a >> >like-or-not.html?_r=1. >> > > >> > > > >> > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that >> containments >> were >> > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island >> more than >> > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The >> containment >> > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that >> > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from >> this page >> > >http://guides.library.iit.**edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=**205068. >> Scroll down >> to >> > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima >> came from >> > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. >> > > > >> > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP >> > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department >> > > > Illinois Institute of Technology >> > > > Room 182, Life Science >> > > > 3101 South Dearborn >> > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 >> > > > (312) 842-1789 >> > > > friedmanla at iit.edu >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/** > radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:26:47 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:26:47 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <350890.15564.qm@smtp106-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> where would PU. come in to play ? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:40:11 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the rational world. Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > >________________________________ >From: Steven Dapra >To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation Protection >(Health Physics) Mailing List >Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > >Dec. 29 > > Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > >Steven Dapra > > >At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steven Dapra > > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > > > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > > > > Dec. 28 > > > > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every > > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake > and tsunami. > >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > > > > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it >melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > > > Forwarded. > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island >accident, > > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year > extension of > > >the Indian Point operating > > >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t > >he-next-fukushima.html > > > > > > > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a > >like-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > > > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments >were > > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile > Island more than > > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The > containment > > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that > > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available > from this page > > >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down >to > > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at > Fukushima came from > > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > > > Room 182, Life Science > > > > 3101 South Dearborn > > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > > > (312) 842-1789 > > > > friedmanla at iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:26:47 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:26:47 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <350890.15564.qm@smtp106-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> where would PU. come in to play ? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:40:11 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the rational world. Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > >________________________________ >From: Steven Dapra >To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation Protection >(Health Physics) Mailing List >Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM >Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > >Dec. 29 > > Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > >Steven Dapra > > >At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steven Dapra > > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > > > > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License >extension. > > > > Dec. 28 > > > > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe every > > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake > and tsunami. > >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > > > > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? Would it >melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt through? > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > > > Forwarded. > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island >accident, > > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year > extension of > > >the Indian Point operating > > >license.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t > >he-next-fukushima.html > > > > > > > > > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a > >like-or-not.html?_r=1. > > > > > > > > > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that containments >were > > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile > Island more than > > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The > containment > > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission that > > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available > from this page > > >http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068. > Scroll down >to > > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at > Fukushima came from > > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > > > > > > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > > > > Room 182, Life Science > > > > 3101 South Dearborn > > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > > > > (312) 842-1789 > > > > friedmanla at iit.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:32:09 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:32:09 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <453481.53635.qm@smtp109-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> they pulled the movie after two weeks. read the history on it Hollywood stuff Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:55:02 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 Most tsunamis seem to be no more than 30 meters high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_tsunamis Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:32:09 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:32:09 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <453481.53635.qm@smtp109-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> they pulled the movie after two weeks. read the history on it Hollywood stuff Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:55:02 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 Most tsunamis seem to be no more than 30 meters high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_tsunamis Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:32:21 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:32:21 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <386333.60444.qm@smtp108-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> they pulled the movie after two weeks. read the history on it Hollywood stuff Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:55:02 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 Most tsunamis seem to be no more than 30 meters high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_tsunamis Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 10:32:21 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:32:21 +0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Message-ID: <386333.60444.qm@smtp108-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> they pulled the movie after two weeks. read the history on it Hollywood stuff Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Steven Dapra To: "Jerry Cohen" ,"The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:55:02 PM GMT-0600 Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. Dec. 30 Most tsunamis seem to be no more than 30 meters high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_tsunamis Steven Dapra At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >Steven et al, >It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >believe the >horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >Unfortunately, so do >many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling airplanes, >meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living >at the site >boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. >My favorite >occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. >According to one >witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 >foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event >seem trivial >in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between >Los Angelas >and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, >and maybe even >the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their >opinion, no matter >how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From sjd at swcp.com Fri Dec 30 11:02:43 2011 From: sjd at swcp.com (Steven Dapra) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:02:43 -0000 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112301539.pBUFdArw091854@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: <201112301702.pBUH2W2Q066177@ame7.swcp.com> Dec. 30 "every possibility"? Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . Steven Dapra At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >funny. > >Bill Lipton >It's not about dose, it's about trust. > > > >On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > > > Dec. 30 > > > > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > > > > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > > rational world. > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > > > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > > > >> Steven et al, > >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually > >> believe the > >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. > >> Unfortunately, so do > >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually > >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling > >> airplanes, > >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at > >> the site > >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My > >> favorite > >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According > >> to one > >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a > >> 400 > >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem > >> trivial > >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los > >> Angelas > >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious > >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and > >> maybe even > >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no > >> matter > >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. [edit] From terryj at iit.edu Fri Dec 30 11:08:22 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:08:22 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <201112301702.pBUH2W2Q066177@ame7.swcp.com> References: <71689B7F-C4CD-4F81-A96C-C35971B40379@iit.edu> <201112290254.pBT2sOwK064160@ame7.swcp.com> <1325193922.28027.YahooMailRC@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112300118.pBU1IrfO023350@ame7.swcp.com> <1325220750.63226.YahooMailRC@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201112301539.pBUFdArw091854@ame7.swcp.com> <201112301702.pBUH2W2Q066177@ame7.swcp.com> Message-ID: <92314820-E98D-4990-B0BC-00D50BA3508C@iit.edu> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. Jeff On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > Dec. 30 > > "every possibility"? > > Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. > > Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . > > Steven Dapra > > > At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >> funny. >> >> Bill Lipton >> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >> >> > Dec. 30 >> > >> > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >> > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >> > >> > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >> > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >> > rational world. >> > >> > Steven Dapra >> > >> > >> > >> > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >> > >> >> Steven et al, >> >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >> >> believe the >> >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >> >> Unfortunately, so do >> >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >> >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >> >> airplanes, >> >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >> >> the site >> >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >> >> favorite >> >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >> >> to one >> >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >> >> 400 >> >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >> >> trivial >> >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >> >> Angelas >> >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >> >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >> >> maybe even >> >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >> >> matter >> >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > > [edit] > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Fri Dec 30 12:03:51 2011 From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at (franz.schoenhofer at chello.at) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:03:51 +0100 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: <92314820-E98D-4990-B0BC-00D50BA3508C@iit.edu> Message-ID: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> Jeff, The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: > You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. > > You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. > > You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. > > Jeff > > > On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > > > Dec. 30 > > > > "every possibility"? > > > > Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. > > > > Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: > >> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't > >> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that > >> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major > >> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns > >> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. > >> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release > >> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not > >> funny. > >> > >> Bill Lipton > >> It's not about dose, it's about trust. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > >> > >> > Dec. 30 > >> > > >> > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > >> > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > >> > > >> > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > >> > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > >> > rational world. > >> > > >> > Steven Dapra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > >> > > >> >> Steven et al, > >> >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually > >> >> believe the > >> >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. > >> >> Unfortunately, so do > >> >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually > >> >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling > >> >> airplanes, > >> >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at > >> >> the site > >> >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My > >> >> favorite > >> >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According > >> >> to one > >> >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a > >> >> 400 > >> >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem > >> >> trivial > >> >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los > >> >> Angelas > >> >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious > >> >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and > >> >> maybe even > >> >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no > >> >> matter > >> >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > > > > [edit] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 From mek14 at health.state.ny.us Fri Dec 30 12:24:51 2011 From: mek14 at health.state.ny.us (Michael E. Kitto) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:24:51 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] unanticipated events Message-ID: First, I am glad now that my house is at 440 feet AMSL ;) "......According to one witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a 400 foot high Tsunami..... Secondly, on the subject of "every possibility", I am sure the bike rider on the Serengeti did not consider that an antelope would wipe him out. Now that was funny. youtube.com/watch?v=BDz1Q7poBkQ Mike Kitto Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:03:34 -0600 From: Steven Dapra Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. To: "The International Radiation Protection \(Health Physics\) Mailing List" Message-ID: <201112301702.pBUH2W2Q066177 at ame7.swcp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dec. 30 "every possibility"? Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . Steven Dapra IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. From terryj at iit.edu Fri Dec 30 12:27:13 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:27:13 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> References: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> Message-ID: I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > Jeff, > > The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! > > So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... > > > ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >> >> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >> >> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >> >>> Dec. 30 >>> >>> "every possibility"? >>> >>> Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>> >>> Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>> >>> Steven Dapra >>> >>> >>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >>>> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >>>> funny. >>>> >>>> Bill Lipton >>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>> >>>>> I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>> >>>>> A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>> rational world. >>>>> >>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>> believe the >>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>> the site >>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>> favorite >>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>> to one >>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >>>>>> 400 >>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>> trivial >>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>> Angelas >>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>> maybe even >>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>> >>> [edit] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > -- > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat > Habicherg. 31/7 > A-1160 Vienna > Austria > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 > From donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov Fri Dec 30 12:55:07 2011 From: donald.p.mercado at nasa.gov (Mercado, Donald Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC]) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:55:07 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: References: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at>, Message-ID: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE211280D795CE@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> There is a difference of willingness to accept risks when considering whether the risk is voluntary or imposed. I will voluntarily accept risks of driving, but unwilling to accept the risk of second hand smoke. Antis are not willing to accept the imposed risk, minimal or imaginary as it may be. ________________________________________ From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Terry [terryj at iit.edu] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:27 AM To: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > Jeff, > > The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! > > So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... > > > ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >> >> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >> >> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >> >>> Dec. 30 >>> >>> "every possibility"? >>> >>> Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>> >>> Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>> >>> Steven Dapra >>> >>> >>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >>>> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >>>> funny. >>>> >>>> Bill Lipton >>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>> >>>>> I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>> >>>>> A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>> rational world. >>>>> >>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>> believe the >>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>> the site >>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>> favorite >>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>> to one >>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >>>>>> 400 >>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>> trivial >>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>> Angelas >>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>> maybe even >>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>> >>> [edit] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > -- > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat > Habicherg. 31/7 > A-1160 Vienna > Austria > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From CJB01 at health.state.ny.us Fri Dec 30 12:56:53 2011 From: CJB01 at health.state.ny.us (Clayton J Bradt) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:56:53 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Unexpected events (was: Indian Point License extension.) Message-ID: The good people of Fort Edward, NY could tell us all something about unexpected hazards: Underground explosions from fuel leak force evacuations in Fort Edward By BRYAN FITZGERALD, Staff writer Updated 11:04 p.m., Wednesday, December 28, 2011 FORT EDWARD ? Lying on his back after the force from an underground blast roared up through a manhole, launching him 5 feet away and next to a row of hedges, Kevin Stimpson stared dazed into the dark, cloudy sky. Raindrops drummed down as he gathered his thoughts. The swift, percussive booms of another half-dozen explosions rippled through the air. Flames shot out from the sewers and into the night. People emptied their homes in a frenzy, many screaming and running. It was just after 8 p.m. Tuesday. Throughout town, panic was settling in. "It was like a military plane flew overhead and was dropping bombs on us," Stimpson said. "I just thought 'How are we going to stop this?' It was like a war zone. No one knew what was really going on." Unbeknown to the riverside Washington County town, a massive gasoline leak at a gas station in Hudson Falls had seeped into the sewage drains and traveled downstream. Somewhere along its route, the fuel ignited near Fort Edward, sparking a series of underground explosions that tore through manholes across town. The force of the blasts launched more than a dozen manhole covers into the air. Weighing 150 pounds apiece, the covers were impossible to track in black sky. Several were found more than 300 feet from where they took off, some shattered into pieces. Others remained missing as of Tuesday afternoon. "If it hit somebody, it would kill you," said Fort Edward Public Safety Director William Cook. "There's no question about that." Stimpson, the town's highway superintendent, was the only person injured: He twisted his knee when he fell to the ground. Though the estimated two dozen explosions came and went in less than 10 minutes, a sense of fear paralyzed the town for the rest of the night. More than 400 people were evacuated from their homes. Around 200 took shelter at Fort Edward High School, the district dispatching school buses to shuttle those displaced. The gas leak was contained quickly and no other explosions were triggered. Everyone was allowed to return home by 6 a.m. Stimpson heard the first two explosions while sitting with his wife and daughter inside their Liberty Street home. He walked south to the nearby intersection of Keating Avenue and Washington Street and saw a stream of fire rip 20 feet into the air. Five seconds later, he turned toward St. Joseph's Montessori School and saw another. He took two steps back. "I couldn't see it, but there was a sewage drain right in the middle of the road," Stimpson said. "It just blew up and blew right off the road. The sound was horrendous." After recollecting his bearings, Stimpson ran down the sides of the streets and screamed at people to get away from the roads. "There were some very tense moments," said Hudson Falls police chief Randy Diamond. "All things considering, we really lucked out." Diamond said the gas leak was triggered by a ruptured pipe at the Cumberland Farms on the corner of Route 4 and Elm Street. Surveillance footage shows a car backing into the damaged pump around 8 p.m., said Diamond, who added that the external damage to the pump was so minor that the driver may not have noticed it was hit. Diamond said his department would not consider pressing any charges until they located and spoke with the driver. He said an emergency mechanism to close the pump failed, but may have been damaged when it was struck by the car. The Cumberland Farms was closed Wednesday. Calls to the company were not returned. The state Department of Environmental Conservation said 1,200 gallons of fuel spilled, enough to carry a jet from Albany to Philadelphia. The gas traveled for more than two miles down to the Fort Edward Waste Water Treatment Plant on Route 4, according to the Department of Environmental Conservation. The DEC and other independent spill crews were working Wednesday to clean the site. It will take days until they are finished. Those who live around the gas station said they did not know what was going on until they turned on their computers or the evening news. Siobhan Goe, who lives on Elm Street in Hudson Falls, was on her way home from work when the blasts occurred. Goe had to take a detour around Fort Edward and her street was blocked off. Though Goe said she thought the explosions were thunder, she was concerned. "It was scary because no one knew what was going on," she said. Goe found out about the gas leak when she logged onto Facebook and read updates. After finding out the spill was on her street, she packed a bag in case she had to evacuate. She was never asked to leave her home. People who were not evacuated were told to stay inside for their own protection. Stimpson's wife, Michelle, said the explosions caused her toilets to burst. She fled her home with her daughter. "It was like Armageddon in the streets," Michelle Stimpson said. "I never want to live through that again." The majority of the manhole explosions were around the area of Broadway, Liberty and Washington Streets. One explosion on Satterlee Lane, a narrow dead end just off Broadway, was powerful enough to shatter all the windows of an adjacent home and crack lengthy fault lines down the road. The explosion carved a crater more than 6 feet wide into the pavement. Cook, the Fort Edward Public Safety director, said he was standing nearby and saw the flames by Satterlee Lane shoot out more than 15 feet into the sky. What sparked the explosions may never be known, Cook said. In 2008, a series of similar explosions in Troy were sparked by a shorted-out underground wire. Cook said any number of things, from an electrical spark to simply too much pressure building up in the sewers could have caused the explosions. "When the gas comes out, it meets a certain concentration. When the numbers are just right and it finds the ignition source, you get the explosion," Cook said. "Once it finds what it's looking for ... boom." . Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blasts-led-to-panic-confusion-2428511.php#ixzz1hvyHya94 ****************************** At least the people in Fort Edward can rest easy at night knowing that they live 150 miles from Indian Point! Have a Happy New Year everybody! (but don't stand too close to any manholes) Clayton J. Bradt Principal Radiophysicist NYS Dept. of Health Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A Empire State Plaza Albany, NY 12201-0509 518-474-1993 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. From terryj at iit.edu Fri Dec 30 13:01:08 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:01:08 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE211280D795CE@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> References: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> <58135D89BF9B384E94CCBD8DC1C6FE211280D795CE@NDJSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: Hence the problem. Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:55 PM, "Mercado, Donald Paul. (ARC-QH)[CONSOLIDATED SAFETY SERVICES INC]" wrote: > There is a difference of willingness to accept risks when considering whether the risk is voluntary or imposed. I will voluntarily accept risks of driving, but unwilling to accept the risk of second hand smoke. Antis are not willing to accept the imposed risk, minimal or imaginary as it may be. > > ________________________________________ > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Terry [terryj at iit.edu] > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:27 AM > To: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at > Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. > > I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. > > It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. > > Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. > > You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! >> >> So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... >> >> >> ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >>> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >>> >>> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >>> >>> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>> >>>> Dec. 30 >>>> >>>> "every possibility"? >>>> >>>> Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>>> >>>> Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>>> >>>> Steven Dapra >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >>>>> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>>> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >>>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >>>>> funny. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Lipton >>>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>>> >>>>>> I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>>> >>>>>> A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >>>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>>> rational world. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>>> believe the >>>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>>> the site >>>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>>> favorite >>>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>>> to one >>>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >>>>>>> 400 >>>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>>> trivial >>>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>>> Angelas >>>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>>> maybe even >>>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>>> >>>> [edit] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>>> >>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>>> >>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> -- >> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat >> Habicherg. 31/7 >> A-1160 Vienna >> Austria >> mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 >> > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV Fri Dec 30 13:04:56 2011 From: Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV (Brennan, Mike (DOH)) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:04:56 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian PointLicenseextension. In-Reply-To: References: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> Message-ID: <37C41083D3480E4BBB478317773B845D07505BB5@dohmxtum31.doh.wa.lcl> A book well worth reading in its own right, "Lucifer's Hammer" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer%27s_Hammer), discusses the effect of one of those "when, not if" mega-disasters; Earth being hit by a comet. The authors included a nuclear power plant in the San Joaquin Valley, which fairs much better than the civilization around it (OK, Niven and Pournelle played with reality a little to have it survive, but only a little). The book won a Hugo Award, and Walter Alvarez (one of the people who figured out what put paid to the dinosaurs) described it as the best description of a comet impact that he ever read. While I don't expect nuclear power plants to actually survive "the big one", I don't expect any other parts of the power system to do so, either. As a great Canadian philosopher once said, "Sometimes you're hosed, ay?" -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Terry Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:27 AM To: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at Cc: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian PointLicenseextension. I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > Jeff, > > The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! > > So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... > > > ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >> >> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >> >> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >> >>> Dec. 30 >>> >>> "every possibility"? >>> >>> Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>> >>> Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>> >>> Steven Dapra >>> >>> >>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >>>> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >>>> funny. >>>> >>>> Bill Lipton >>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>> >>>>> I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>> >>>>> A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>> rational world. >>>>> >>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>> believe the >>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>> the site >>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>> favorite >>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>> to one >>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >>>>>> 400 >>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>> trivial >>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>> Angelas >>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>> maybe even >>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>> >>> [edit] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > -- > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat > Habicherg. 31/7 > A-1160 Vienna > Austria > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From doctorbill34 at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 13:08:57 2011 From: doctorbill34 at gmail.com (William Lipton) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:08:57 -0500 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License extension. In-Reply-To: <912648.52943.qm@smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <912648.52943.qm@smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: While human error initiated the Browns Ferry fire, poor construction made it dangerous. Cables for redundant safety systems were routed on the same cable trays. Thus, the fire made both systems inoperable. They came very close to losing control of the plant. To me, this is a more serious incident than TMI, where the safety systems worked as designed, despite the best efforts of the operators. Davis Besse was a lot more than missed inspections. There was a tremendous amount of airborne boron. They had to change air sampler filters much more frequently than usual. Instead of asking why, management gave the technicians an attaboy for being able to change the filters quickly. In any event, you seem to imply that nuclear safety depends on human perfection. Now, I'm really worried. Bill Lipton It's not about dose, it's about trust. On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Duke wrote: > brownsferry and tmi was human error .bessie was missed on inspections. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: William Lipton > To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List" > > Date: Friday, December 30, 2011 11:19:14 AM GMT-0500 > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License > extension. > > It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't > have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that > there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major > problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns > Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. > How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release > from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not > funny. > > Bill Lipton > It's not about dose, it's about trust. > > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > > > Dec. 30 > > > > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > > > > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > > rational world. > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > > > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > > > >> Steven et al, > >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually > >> believe the > >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. > >> Unfortunately, so do > >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have > actually > >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling > >> airplanes, > >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at > >> the site > >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My > >> favorite > >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According > >> to one > >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by > a > >> 400 > >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem > >> trivial > >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los > >> Angelas > >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really > serious > >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and > >> maybe even > >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, > no > >> matter > >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > >> > >> ______________________________**__ > >> From: Steven Dapra > >> To: Jerry Cohen ; The International Radiation > >> Protection > >> (Health Physics) Mailing List > >> Sent: Thu, September 30, 2004 5:19:53 AM > >> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License > >> extension. > >> > >> Dec. 29 > >> > >> Thanks, Jerry. (Heh, heh.) > >> > >> Steven Dapra > >> > >> > >> At 03:25 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > >> > You can learn all about it in the movie, "China Syndrome" > >> > > >> > ______________________________**__ > >> > From: Steven Dapra > >> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing > List > >> > > >> > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2004 6:55:22 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point License > >> extension. > >> > > >> > Dec. 28 > >> > > >> > I get the impression that the Fukushima fearmongers believe > >> every > >> > reactor in the world is susceptible to a combination earthquake and > >> tsunami. > >> >Is that only me, or have other gained the same impression? > >> > > >> > How would the melted fuel get out of the reactor vessel? > Would > >> it > >> melt through? Or is it at least possible that the fuel could melt > >> through? > >> > > >> > Steven Dapra > >> > > >> > > >> > At 10:57 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: > >> > > Forwarded. > >> > > > >> > > Begin forwarded message: > >> > > > >> > > > From: Laurence F Friedman > >> > > > Subject: Indian Point License extension > >> > > > Date: December 27, 2011 8:32:24 AM CST > >> > > > To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Victor Gilinsky, an NRC Commissioner during the Three Mile Island > >> accident, > >> > >wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times opposing the 20-year > >> extension of > >> > >the Indian Point operating > >> > >license.http://www.nytimes.**com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-** > >> indian-point-t< > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/opinion/is-indian-point-t> > >> >he-next-fukushima.html > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Letters responding to Gilinsky's op-ed are here > >> > >http://www.nytimes.com/2011/**12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-** > >> fukushima-a< > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/indian-pt-and-fukushima-a> > >> >like-or-not.html?_r=1. > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > While Gilinsky is partially correct in his statement that > >> containments > >> were > >> > >not designed to resist a full meltdown in fact at Three Mile Island > >> more than > >> > >half the fuel melted and the pressure vessel wasn't damaged. The > >> containment > >> > >wasn't even challenged. The report of the international commission > that > >> > >investigated the condition of the pressure vessel is available from > >> this page > >> > >http://guides.library.iit.**edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=**205068< > http://guides.library.iit.edu/content.php?pid=27903&sid=205068>. > >> Scroll down > >> to > >> > >"Three Mile Island." In any case, most of the releases at Fukushima > >> came from > >> > >the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves. > >> > > > > >> > > > Laurence F. Friedman, Ph.D., CHP > >> > > > Senior Lecturer, Physics Department > >> > > > Illinois Institute of Technology > >> > > > Room 182, Life Science > >> > > > 3101 South Dearborn > >> > > > Chicago, IL 60616-3793 > >> > > > (312) 842-1789 > >> > > > friedmanla at iit.edu > >> > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/** > > radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > From radbloom at comcast.net Fri Dec 30 13:24:16 2011 From: radbloom at comcast.net (radbloom at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:24:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1576013001.298238.1325273056418.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> We also accept risks by not doing anything. Cindy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Terry" To: "franz schoenhofer" Cc: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:27:13 PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point????????Licenseextension. I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > Jeff, > > The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! > > So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... > > > ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >> >> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >> >> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >> >>> Dec. 30 >>> >>> ? ? ? "every possibility"? >>> >>> ? ? ? Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>> >>> ? ? ? Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? ?Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. ?You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>> >>> Steven Dapra >>> >>> >>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. ?While Indian Point won't >>>> have a 130 m ?(I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>> problems. ?The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? ?A major release >>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. ?I agree, it's not >>>> funny. >>>> >>>> Bill Lipton >>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>> >>>>> ? ? ? I realize it's not funny. ?It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>> >>>>> ? ? ? A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." ?A >>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>> rational world. >>>>> >>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>> believe the >>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>> the site >>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>> favorite >>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>> to one >>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could ?be hit by a >>>>>> 400 >>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>> trivial >>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>> Angelas >>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>> maybe even >>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>> >>> [edit] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > -- > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat > Habicherg. 31/7 > A-1160 Vienna > Austria > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 > _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From terryj at iit.edu Fri Dec 30 13:59:20 2011 From: terryj at iit.edu (Jeff Terry) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:59:20 -0600 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. In-Reply-To: <1576013001.298238.1325273056418.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1576013001.298238.1325273056418.JavaMail.root@sz0034a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8612613B-CB78-474F-A083-934CDB241DF2@iit.edu> This is correct but I am not sure that most acknowledge it. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2011, at 1:24 PM, radbloom at comcast.net wrote: > > > We also accept risks by not doing anything. > > > > Cindy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jeff Terry" > To: "franz schoenhofer" > Cc: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList" > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:27:13 PM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. > > I believe that was my point. We accept risks by doing anything. Either we do the best we can do given rational constraints or we don't. I don't think that it is surprising at all that humanity has survived until now. Humans used to accept reasonable risk to ensure the betterment of the species. Hunting, mining, etc. were dangerous but were done. > > It is now that the species had become so risk averse that I fear for its survival. > > Maybe I went overboard with my examples. Let me give a more common example, in the US we do not protect underground lines from backhoes. People routinely did in to these causing gas leaks, etc. > > You design to accommodate failure whatever its cause, anticipated or not. > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:03 PM, franz.schoenhofer at chello.at wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! >> >> So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... >> >> >> ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: >>> You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated events. >>> >>> You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they protection from these events cannot be designed in. >>> >>> You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>> >>>> Dec. 30 >>>> >>>> "every possibility"? >>>> >>>> Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. >>>> >>>> Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . >>>> >>>> Steven Dapra >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: >>>>> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't >>>>> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that >>>>> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major >>>>> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns >>>>> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. >>>>> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release >>>>> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not >>>>> funny. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Lipton >>>>> It's not about dose, it's about trust. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dec. 30 >>>>>> >>>>>> I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the >>>>>> China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. >>>>>> >>>>>> A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A >>>>>> claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the >>>>>> rational world. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steven Dapra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steven et al, >>>>>>> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually >>>>>>> believe the >>>>>>> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. >>>>>>> Unfortunately, so do >>>>>>> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have actually >>>>>>> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling >>>>>>> airplanes, >>>>>>> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at >>>>>>> the site >>>>>>> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My >>>>>>> favorite >>>>>>> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According >>>>>>> to one >>>>>>> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a >>>>>>> 400 >>>>>>> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem >>>>>>> trivial >>>>>>> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los >>>>>>> Angelas >>>>>>> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really serious >>>>>>> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and >>>>>>> maybe even >>>>>>> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. >>>> >>>> [edit] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>>> >>>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>>> >>>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >>> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >>> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> -- >> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat >> Habicherg. 31/7 >> A-1160 Vienna >> Austria >> mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 >> > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From jjc105 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 15:17:28 2011 From: jjc105 at yahoo.com (Jerry Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:17:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Real vs. imaginary risks. In-Reply-To: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> References: <20111230190353.QLC94.62987.root@viefep21.chello.at> Message-ID: <1325279848.84624.YahooMailRC@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is a genuine obligation of government to protect citizens against risks to life and well-being. However, this effort should apply to actual risks, as opposed to perceived, or imaginary risks. For example, a sizable fraction of our population fear attack by bogeymen during their sleep (these are generally people under 10 years old). Since there is no physical evidence supporting the actual existence of bogeymen, no effort is made to protect against them. Unfortunately, in the field of nuclear power production, billions of dollars have been expended, to protect us against radiation bogeymen. The Yucca Mountain project is a monument to this illusion. Safe management and disposal of nuclear waste would be a relatively easy and inexpensive proposition if the effort could be reststricted to protection against actual, as opposed to imaginary risks. Jerry Cohen ________________________________ From:"franz.schoenhofer at chello.at" To:The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList Sent:Fri, December 30, 2011 10:03:51 AM Subject:Re: [ RadSafe ] Forwarded to the list: Indian Point Licenseextension. Jeff, The risks you describe are not at all restricted to nuclear power. Ever heard of landslides, inundations, tornados? You as an American citizen should know much better than me! So what? The human race is subject since millions of years to all kind of "environmental" impact and especially disasters. Surprisingly it survived until now..... ---- Jeff Terry schrieb: > You have to design systems so that you can react and deal with an unanticipated >events. > > > You cannot design in protection from even all anticipated events. For example, >we know that at some point a large body from space will hit the earth, we know >that Yellowstone will erupt again. These are events so large in impact that they >protection from these events cannot be designed in. > > > You either accept the risk in power generation or you do not. > > Jeff > > > On Sep 30, 2004, at 11:03 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > > > Dec. 30 > > > > "every possibility"? > > > > Given the limitless imaginations and the lurid fantasies of the >anti-nukers I suspect this could become an exquisitely long list. > > > > Have you examined all the possibilities of the dangers that go along >with driving your car? Elephant gets loose from the circus, wanders across the >road while you're rushing to the reactor in an emergency response. You >broadside the elephant, killing it; and a band of crazed PETA members wielding >pitchforks and staves descends on you. . . . > > > > Steven Dapra > > > > > > At 10:19 AM 12/30/2011, you wrote: > >> It's what you don't think about that gets you. While Indian Point won't > >> have a 130 m (I'm trying to go metric.) tsunami, I'm not confident that > >> there's some other unanalyzed accident sequence that will cause major > >> problems. The power reactor major incidents and near misses, e.g., Browns > >> Ferry fire, TMI, Davis Besse vessel failure, etc.) were all unanticipated. > >> How can we be sure that we've looked at every possibility? A major release > >> from IP would be a disaster for millions of people. I agree, it's not > >> funny. > >> > >> Bill Lipton > >> It's not about dose, it's about trust. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:40 PM, Steven Dapra wrote: > >> > >> > Dec. 30 > >> > > >> > I realize it's not funny. It seemed to me you were invoking the > >> > China syndrome in jest, and I responded in kind. > >> > > >> > A 400 foot tsunami does not fall within the realm of "opinion." A > >> > claim like this bespeaks someone who is utterly out of touch with the > >> > rational world. > >> > > >> > Steven Dapra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > At 10:52 PM 12/29/2011, you wrote: > >> > > >> >> Steven et al, > >> >> It's really not funny. I think the majority of the public actually > >> >> believe the > >> >> horror scenario of a "China syndrome" is actually possible. > >> >> Unfortunately, so do > >> >> many Washington bureaucrats. Some other "possibilities" that have >actually > >> >> received serious consideration in siting studies include, falling > >> >> airplanes, > >> >> meteor impact, and people actually spending their entire life living at > >> >> the site > >> >> boundry at the center of any and all downwind release trajectories. My > >> >> favorite > >> >> occured at the siting hearings for the San Onofre Power Plant. According > >> >> to one > >> >> witness, his seismic analysis indicated that the plant could be hit by a > >> >> 400 > >> >> foot high Tsunami. Such an occurence would make the Fukushima event seem > >> >> trivial > >> >> in comparison. Of course, in such an event, everyone living between Los > >> >> Angelas > >> >> and the Mexican border would likely drown to death, buy the really >serious > >> >> consequence might be the release of some I-131, deadly Plutonium, and > >> >> maybe even > >> >> the terrible Depleted Uranium. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, no > >> >> matter > >> >> how absurd, but what law says that it must be taken seriously. > > > > [edit] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >http://health.phys.iit.edu > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the >RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: >http://health.phys.iit.edu -- Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat Habicherg. 31/7 A-1160 Vienna Austria mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From duke99301 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 30 16:19:10 2011 From: duke99301 at yahoo.com (Mark S. Sasser) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ RadSafe ] Unexpected events (was: Indian Point License extension.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1325283550.12481.YahooMailNeo@web161506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?take it easy guys IP2 is a good plant I worked there many times as for the ferry if new what happend and why the fire happend we would not be having this talk. as for bessie the head replacement? steam gennys all that . I work have worked in just about ervey plant in the USA as safety or alara and I rather work in a nuke than a nasty old coal plant. ? ? Mark S.Sasser ? ?There is no security on this earth. Only opportunity. ?At the end of the universe lies the beginning of vengeance From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 18:54:25 2011 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:54:25 -0800 Subject: [ RadSafe ] Plutonium powered probe just keeps on with the amazing photos In-Reply-To: <8F3F419497B2423A88364C42A1841E41@M5> References: <8F3F419497B2423A88364C42A1841E41@M5> Message-ID: From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111223105435.htm NASA's Cassini Delivers Holiday Treats from Saturn (*Excerpt*) ScienceDaily (Dec. 23, 2011) =97 No team of reindeer, but radio signals fly= ing clear across the solar system from NASA's Cassini spacecraft have delivered a holiday package of glorious images. The pictures, from Cassini's imaging team, show Saturn's largest, most colorful ornament, Titan, and other icy baubles in orbit around this splendid planet. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: The X-ray machine *was exhibited *for the first time on this date in 1896. Heinrich Joseph Hoffmans, a Dutch headmaster and physicist, developed the machine just a month after Wilhelm R=F6ntgen had discovered (and named) X-rays in Germany. An X-ray machine could be constructed out of materials common to most science labs: iron rods, a glass plate, a battery, electric wire, and a glass vacuum bulb. Hoffmans built his out of spare parts in his classroom. The quality of the images in 1896 was pretty impressive, but they came at a cost. Exposure time was about 90 minutes, and the total dose of radiation was 1,500 times greater than what is used today. Subjects and experimenters received radiation burns, suffered eye problems, lost their hair, and developed cancer. Many people ended up having to amputate the hands that had been X-rayed. Hoffmans' original machine quickly became obsolete, and was abandoned on a shelf in a warehouse in Maastricht until a documentary film crew discovered it in 2010. Dr. Gerrit Kemerink, of the Maastricht University Medical Center, put Hoffmans' machine to the test, and was able to produce an image of a cadaver hand on the 115-year-old machine. Kemerink said, "Our experience with this machine, which had a buzzing interruptor, crackling lightning within a spark gap, and a greenish light flashing in a tube, which spread the smell of ozone and which revealed internal structures in the human body was, even today, little less than magical." Susan Gawarecki From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: proppant 1. =A0n.=A0 [Well Workover and Intervention, Shale Gas ] ID:=A04985 Sized particles mixed with=A0fracturing fluid=A0to hold fractures open after a=A0hydraulic fracturing=A0treatment. In addition to naturally occurring=A0sand=A0grains, man-made or specially engineered proppants, such as=A0resin-coated sand or high-strength ceramic materials like sintered=A0bauxite, may also be used. Proppant materials are carefully sorted for size and sphericity to provide an efficient conduit for production=A0of fluid from the=A0reservoir=A0to the wellbore. http://tinyurl.com/76ek4xy Dan ii On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Cowie, Michael I wrote: > > Depends what the material is Dan. If it is scale or sludge from oil produ= ction it is not normal to find associated uranium - this usually stays in t= he reservoir formation. Your observations would be correct if it was drill = cuttings. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.= phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan McCarn > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:06 AM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Radioactivity and Fracking > > Hi Group: > > Since the material is most likely natural, I make the assumption that the= radium is in secular equilibrium with uranium. In order to place these qua= ntities in perspective, the equivalent amount of natural uranium was calcul= ated in mg / kg (ppm). =A0For the regulatory limit of 5 pCi/g Ra =3D=3D > 0.185 Bq/g this would be the equivalent of 7.32 mg/kg U-Nat. =A0This is s= lightly less than the typical granites in Wyoming which average about 10 mg= /kg U-Nat. > > For the sand that would correspond to 45 pCi/g =3D=3D 1.665 Bq/g, it is e= quivalent to 66 mg/kg (ppm) U-Nat. (6.59 x 10^-5 g). This could be from a m= oderately enriched granite or perhaps a heavy-mineral enriched natural sand= containing zircon. =A0Pure zircon sands contain from 150 - 300 mg/kg U-Nat= =3D=3D 100 - 200 pCi/kg almost always in secular equilibrium with > radium-226 progeny. > > The anatectic granites mined for uranium in the Namib Desert in SE Africa > (Namibia) are about 100-125 mg/kg (ppm) U-Nat. > > The Chattanooga (USA), Pierre (USA) & Kolm (Sweden) shales are about 100 = mg/kg (ppm) U-Nat. > > These are only observations. > > Dan ii > > Dan W McCarn, Geologist > 108 Sherwood Blvd > Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 > +1-505-672-2014=A0(Home =96 New Mexico) > +1-505-670-8123=A0(Mobile - New Mexico) > HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com > > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:24 PM, Lawrence Jacobi < rjacobi at jacobiconsulti= ng.net> wrote: > > > There has been an interesting series of articles in the Williston > > North Dakota newspaper regarding radioactivity from oilfield > > operations. =A0My impression is that the reporters have tried to write > > balanced articles, but the stories have been replete with mild > > hysteria and misinterpretation of the data. > > > > Here's the latest: > > http://www.willistonherald.com/news/radiation-what-does-it-mean/articl > > e_3721c300-4485-11e1-9e29-0019bb2963f4.html > > > > *************************************** > > Lawrence R. Jacobi, Jr., P.E., J.D. > > Jacobi Consulting > > 10807 Bonaparte Bend > > Austin, TX 78750-2801 > > (512) 656-4765 cell > > (512) 335-4006 fax > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and > > understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: > > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html > > > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings > > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood t= he RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsafe= rules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings vis= it: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > ________________________________ > > The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and at= tachments transmitted with it (collectively referred to as =93this Email=94= ), are intended solely for the use of the individual/entity to whom/which t= hey are addressed, and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged i= nformation. This Email may not be disclosed or forwarded to anyone else wit= hout authorization from the originator of this Email. If you have received = this Email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all co= pies from your system. Please note that the views or opinions presented in = this Email are those of the author and may not necessarily represent those = of Saudi Aramco. The recipient should check this Email and any attachments = for the presence of any viruses. Saudi Aramco accepts no liability for any = damage caused by any virus/error transmitted by this Email. > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood t= he RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsafe= rules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings vis= it: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Human error, organisational or technical problems, natural disasters or terrorist attack, sabotage or acts of war mean that even the newest and most sophisticated can lead to significant radioactive leaks similar to Chernobyl and Fukushima." It is a shame that Greenpeace has so little confidence in their position that they feel the need to "lawyer lie" (say things that, while taken on their face are not untrue, but that are intended to make people believe things that are false.) In this case a truer statement would be, "No human construct is guaranteed safe." Indeed, even "nature" is not without its hazards, as the multiple mass extinctions that happened without human assistance testify. Nuclear power has risks associated with it, but on an energy unit basis the are not as great in routine operation as coal, nor as great in catastrophic failure as hydro. That Greenpeace choose to present the risks of nuclear power in isolation to me says they are either ignorant (which I don't believe) or dishonest. ****************************** I prefer to view the problem as being the definition of "safe". As used here by Greenpeace and Mike, "safe" is synonymous with "absolutely risk free". But nobody uses the term this way in colloquial speech. When we say it is "safe to cross the street" or "safe to go swimming" or "safe to fly in a plane" we don't mean that these activities are risk free, we mean that the level of risk is acceptable, not inordinately high, or comparable to the risks we assume in normal everyday living. If the BIER committee had used the normal definition of safe, they would have found that there IS such a thing as a safe level of radiation exposure. EPA would admit that there are safe levels of residential radon. ... And most of us would be out of work. Clayton J. Bradt Principal Radiophysicist NYS Dept. of Health Biggs Laboratory, Room D486A Empire State Plaza Albany, NY 12201-0509 518-474-1993 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: choice of size and material of the stuff pumped down the well potentially having a huge impact on how much gas eventually comes out. =20 -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 5:11 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Officials to test Minot proppant after oilfield waste found radioactive Jan. 26 What is proppant? Steven Dapra At 07:56 AM 1/24/2012, you wrote: >More coverage of the "radioactive" oil field sand in North Dakota --=20 >this time from the Minot Daily News. Perhaps the Health Physics=20 >Society should step in and help the reporters put this whole issue=20 >in perspective. > >http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/562393/Officials-t o-test-Minot-proppant-after-oilfield-waste-found-radioactive.html?nav=3D5= 0 10 _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "The 5-member NRC voted in favor of the licenses four to one, with Chairman= Gregory Jaczko dissenting." A December 15, 2011 article, "Jaczko apologizes for distraction and implies= he has been the victim of a coup" (http://atomicinsights.com/2011/12/jaczko-apologizes-for-distraction-and-im= plies-he-has-been-the-victim-of-a-coup.html), which includes a video and ot= her links, puts some background on Jaczko. Some other Atomic Insights lin= ks: http://atomicinsights.com/2011/12/senator-carper-advises-chairman-jaczko-to= -follow-the-golden-rule.html http://atomicinsights.com/2011/12/senator-boxer-expresses-admiration-for-ch= airman-jaczko-and-disrespect-for-all-other-nrc-commissioners.html=20 http://atomicinsights.com/2011/12/jaczko-hearings-a-depressing-example-of-p= artisan-power-politics.html=20 Rick Strickert Austin, TX From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: monitoring station in town?" That would be fine if they could predict what they need to monitor, and which direction it is going to go. It would be rather pointless to have "a" monitoring station if contamination wasn't going to come to it. It is possible what is being suggested is a network of station, which is better, but much more expensive. =20 "Residents wanted independent, real-time monitoring in San Clemente." And they can have it. For it to be real, though, they are looking at a lot of money up front, and a fair amount per year. It would be easier to work with their state radiation protection organization, which probably already is in place. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Lawrence Jacobi Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:12 AM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] San Clemente panel urges radiation monitoring in newcity blueprint I can't decide if this is a good idea or not. I don't see any harm in the city doing its own radiation monitoring, but I can see where it might cause confusion if it is done poorly. And, during an actual offsite release from a radiological facility, it could be a source of hysteria if it is not properly coordinated with the federal, state and local emergency response units. San Clemente panel urges radiation monitoring in new city blueprint _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: food. But radiation levels that effectively control pathogens have no demonstrated harmful effects on humans." Enjoy, Jerry ________________________________ The statements and opinions expressed herein are my responsibility; no one else (certainly not my employer) is responsible, but I still reserve the right to make mistakes. Gerald A. Falo, Ph.D., CHP Army Institute of Public Health - Health Physics Program jerry.falo at us.army.mil 410-436-4852 DSN: 584-4852 Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01CCEE57.C2991700-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: system and passive safeguards systems are not dependent on offsite power = or on any backup diesel generators. Following a loss of ac power, the = protection and safety monitoring system and passive safeguards are able to = perform the safety functions and there are no additional time delays for = these functions to be completed.? That, in and by itself, is the major = thing that makes the AP1000 (the reactors to be built at the Vogtle site = in Georgia) safe(r) than current reactor designs. =20 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "safe" with "zero risk". Under that definition, I don't believe any = technology or activity would be deemed "safe". =20 Jim Hardeman >>> "Otto G. Raabe" 2/17/2012 15:52 >>> >February 17, 2012 I think the average person would want to know if it can have catastrophic melt-down accident that would affect many people living near the plant. If so, the average person would perhaps not consider it to be "safe". What about the two that were just licenses for construction in Georgia? What is the maximum credible accident for these new power reactors? Otto ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu=20 Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood = the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaf= erules.html=20 For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings = visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: em and passive safeguards systems are not dependent on offsite power or on = any backup diesel generators. Following a loss of ac power, the protection = and safety monitoring system and passive safeguards are able to perform the= safety functions and there are no additional time delays for these functio= ns to be completed.? That, in and by itself, is the major thing that makes = the AP1000 (the reactors to be built at the Vogtle site in Georgia) safe(r)= than current reactor designs. =20 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: e" with "zero risk". Under that definition, I don't believe any technology = or activity would be deemed "safe". =20 Jim Hardeman >>> "Otto G. Raabe" 2/17/2012 15:52 >>> >February 17, 2012 I think the average person would want to know if it can have catastrophic m= elt-down accident that would affect many people living near the plant. If so, the average person would perhaps not consider it to be "safe". What about the two that were just licenses for construction in Georgia? What is the maximum credible accident for these new power reactors? Otto ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu=20 Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the= RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferu= les.html=20 For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit= : http://health.phys.iit.edu ______________________________________________= _ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the= RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferu= les.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit= : http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Fukushima Radiation & Heart Muscle with Prof. Chris Busby ... I created this video with the YouTube Video Editor (http://www.youtube.com/editor ) www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCcQCV0PJhdY&context... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCcQCV0PJhdY&context=3DC3f0b8f2ADOEgsToPDsk= JTB_ovT89CYAhMGpry8UOM http://tinyurl.com/BusbyHeartClaim From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: >> >> strict point, the unit should not be in microSv as the sievert only i= s >> >> defined for humans. >> >>> >> >>> Does RadSafer know anything about the behavior of the Cetthia specie= s? >> >> Was it particularly cold in northern Japan last year or just "normal"= (I'm >> >> thinking about the migratory pattern)? In addition, what does it mean= for >> >> all these bird species that large areas were flooded? >> >>> >> >>> I do not have the background material with me at this moment of writ= ing >> >> but if I recall correctly, all Parus species and the related Aegithal= os >> >> caudatus showed an increase in numbers. It may also be commented that= the >> >> buzzard partly is associated with humans (like waiting along highways= etc >> >> looking for road kill - something they probably won't do when the car >> >> traffic ceases). >> >>> >> >>> My personal comment only, >> >>> >> >>> Bjorn Cedervall, Stockholm, Sweden >> >>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> >>> >> >>>> From: Karen_Street at sbcglobal.net> >> >>>> The Economist has an article saying that more radioactivity, fewer >> >> birds, and the problem is twice as bad at Fukushima as Chernobyl. >> >>>> >> >>>> http://www.economist.com/node/21548920?frsc=3Ddg|a >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> One problem is that the reason they give at the end is so unlikely >> >> (different composition of radionuclides). Another is a question about= who >> >> is doing the inventory at 35 =C2=B5Sv/hour locations, and how good th= e inventory >> >> is. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Karen Street >> >> Friends Energy Project >> >> blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understo= od >> >> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: >> >> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html >> >> >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings >> >> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> > >> > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understoo= d the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/rads= aferules.html >> > >> > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings = visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu >> >> -- >> Best wishes, >> Karen Street >> Friends Energy Project >> blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php >> >> _______________________________________________ >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list >> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood = the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaf= erules.html >> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings vi= sit: http://health.phys.iit.edu > > -- > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat > Habicherg. 31/7 > A-1160 Vienna > Austria > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227 > > _______________________________________________ > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list > > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood t= he RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsafe= rules.html > > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings vis= it: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: farbersa at optonline.net Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:09 pm Subject: Radiation Exposure Near Chernobyl Based on Analysis of Satellite Images of Tree Damage > Hi all, > Related to my preceding post based on general recollections of the > paper presented by Dr. Marvin Goldman at an HPS annual meeting in 1987, > I quickly found a few references to the early work of Dr. Goldman > and a summary from one of his later papers about radiation dose to > trees, tree damage, and tree regrowth as of 10 years after the Chernobyl accident. > > Stewart Farber > Consulting Scientist > 1285 Wood Ave. > Bridgeport, CT 06604 > [203] 441-8433 [office] > > > ============= > Goldman, M. and S. Ustin, "Radiation Exposure Near Chernobyl Based > on Analysis of Satellite Images," Report to the U.S. Dept. of Energy, > > December, 1987. > > Also From: > http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/1997/Suppl-6/goldman-full.html > > The Russian Radiation Legacy: Its Integrated Impact and Lessons > > Marvin Goldman > > Professor of Radiobiology Emeritus, University of California, > Davis, California > ".....The most intense part of the radioactive footprint left a > unique environmental marker. We were able to use satellite images to > delineate the Chernobyl damage to the adjacent radiosensitive pine forest > that runs 8 to 10 km west of the Chernobyl reactor (5)]. Infrared images > were taken weekly by the Landsat 4 Thematic Mapper Satellite as it passed > over most of the Earth. Images from the Chernobyl region were used and by > enhancing the infrared reflectance wavelengths for those bands corresponding to chlorophyll and moisture, it was possible to discern living from dead pine trees. Thus, from an altitude of about 700 km, a crude spatial and temporal map of the heaviest hit region was developed. Because > pine trees have about a median lethal dose of 6 Gy (6), the images, beginning approximately 3 weeks after the accident, indicated a western > swath of dying and dead trees, the so-called red forest. It was later > learned that the map was correct but the doses were not. The trees actually had received doses of over 100 Gy (7), but regardless of the dose, the > technique showed where the doses exceeded a 6-Gy detection > threshold. Over the next 10 years, much of the damaged forest left standing has shown major regrowth and repair. The more resistant deciduous trees > showed significantly less radiation damage than other types of trees." ================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:34 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] PBS News Hour on Fukushima Please, watch this and comment http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june12/fukushimapt2_03-12.html - the report seems to be somewhat accurate, but it also seems to have gotten things confused between Chernobyl and Fukushima. For example, I doubt that forest near Chernboyl died because of Cs-137 contamination and died because of much higher level contamination unique to Chernobyl. I also note that almost no one is really dressed in proper radiation protective clothing and that makes me wonder just how hazardous this environment really is. Roger Helbig _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: -radon-detector-user-manual.pdf It says that it takes 48 hours before it has a reliable reading -- I assume that it has a charge plate or something to collect Rn progeny. I assume that the error bars on the measurement results are quite large... =20 However, it is approved by the EPA for evaluation of home Rn levels (needs to be calibrated annually if used professionally) Also has lots of caveats for placement: Areas To Avoid Placing Detector * Near drafts caused by heating, ventilating, air condition vents, doors, fans and windows * Near excessive heat, such as fireplaces, direct sunlight and areas of high humidity * Near TV's, computers, radios, fluorescent lights or other electrical devices * Near furniture, curtains, or other items that may inhibit air flow through the ventilation slots of the detector * Do not place in kitchens, laundry rooms, closets or bathrooms * Do not place directly on metal, granite or slate. --- Cary Renquist cary.renquist at ezag.com -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Otto G. Raabe Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2012 14:22 To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Radon tracking... At 09:32 AM 3/27/2012, Cary Renquistwrote: >Forgot... Here is his actual monitoring page: >Monitoring Radon in the Home >http://j.mp/HcTqyL ************************** March 27, 2012 Radon is an inert gas and is quite dilute in room air. How does the Pro Series 3 Radon Monitor detect radon? ********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Center for Health & the Environment University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 ***********************************************=20 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: of Radiochemical Separations" available from the EPA at http://www.epa.gov/safewater/radionuclides/training/index.html "**** ** I'll be pulling-out my texts from Donald Langmuir: Aqueous Environmental Geochemistry and *Stumm *and *Morgan *(1996): Aquatic Chemistry Dan ii Dan W McCarn, Geologist 108 Sherwood Blvd Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425 +1-505-672-2014 (Home =96 New Mexico) +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico) HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Berta Oates Date: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM Subject: RE: An Overview of Actinide Chemistry To: Dan McCarn Hi Dan,**** Thanks for your interest in the radiochemistry webinars. Sorry for the delay in response to your question. While it will depend on each professor or presenter, at this time, it does not appear that lecture notes will be available prior to the webinar. The Overview of Actinide Chemistry webinar is focused on specific radiochemistry topics which are explained in terms of chemical reactivity, such as: solubility, redox reactions, dissociation, complexation, hydrolysis, etc. In preparation for and to get the most out of the discussions, we encourage participants to refresh their knowledge of these analytical chemistry concepts by reviewing Module 3: "Principles of Radiochemical Separations" available from the EPA at http://www.epa.gov/safewater/radionuclides/training/index.html**** ** ** Also, the webinars will be recorded, archived, and made available online. Watch for more information on this and future webinar topics.**** ** ** Make it a great day!**** ** ** Thanks,**** Berta**** ** ** Berta Oates**** Carlsbad Technical Assistance Contract (Portage, Inc.)**** Contractor to the Department of Energy**** 2650 North 300 East, Suite 120**** North Ogden, UT 84414**** Email: boates at portageinc.com**** Phone: (801)782-5179**** Fax: (801)782-5328**** Cell: (801)814-5082**** **** *If we don't change, we don't grow. If we don't grow, we aren't really living.* *Gail Sheehy, social researcher * ** ** *From:* Dan McCarn [mailto:hotgreenchile at gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2012 8:49 PM *To:* Berta Oates *Subject:* An Overview of Actinide Chemistry**** ** ** I look forward to the presentation. Will you have lecture notes beforehand= ? **** ** ** Best! **** ** ** -- **** Dan ii**** ** ** Dan W McCarn, Geologist**** 108 Sherwood Blvd**** Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425**** +1-505-672-2014 (Home =96 New Mexico) **** +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico)**** HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com**** ** ** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. ------------------------------ NON-DISCLOSURE NOTICE--This e-mail message and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information intended for the sole use of the named recipient. If you receive this email in error, or if you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Delivery of this message to any person other than the intended recipient is not intended to waive any right or privilege. 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--f46d044286d2f2049904bd617298-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "Whole-body radiation exposure after a typical dose (2 to 4 mCi) is approximately 0.68 rad, and the kidneys are the organ exposed to the most radiation. The relatively long half-life (T1/2=73 hours) and low energy of 201Tl are important considerations during imaging. The long T1/2 contributes to its significant inpatient residence time and requires lower doses to minimize risk of radiation exposure." This kind of event happens regularly. Many years ago, a visitor on a tour of the White House [when the public was taken on tours] set off rad monitors there because he had had a nuclear stress test. The article at the link Joel supplied below also states: "In the test, a small amount of a radioactive material is injected into the veins and used to help track blood flow to the heart. Though the amount of radioactive material used in the test is relatively low -- equal to a few X-rays or a diagnostic CT scan -- it was enough to set off a radioactivity detector in the state police car. " As we know a "small amount" of radioactivity or dose is relative. Had a release [ aka "spewing" as invariably used by the press in writing about any release] from a nuclear plant like Millstone nuclear station in CT [ which supplies power to over 1 million people in CT] resulted in a fraction of the exposure and dose rate cited, even to one person, many professional anti-nuclear scaremongers would be calling for shutting down every nuclear plant in the region and be wearing out the word "Fukushima". "Ain't it awful" :-) Stewart Farber farber at farber.info ======================= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Joel C. Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 12:10 PM To: radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu Subject: [ RadSafe ] It happened again "Mike Apatow, of Milford, poses at Stratford Fire Station, Company 2, in Stratford, Conn. May 10th, 2012, where he works as firefighter. Apatow, who had a radioactive stress test Wednesday, was pulled over later in the day, in Newtown, by a state police trooper after a radioactivity detector in the trooper's car was set off when Apatow passed. The detectors are used to help identify potential terror threats. Apatow was not on duty at the time. Photo: Ned Gerard / Connecticut Post Read more: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Radioactive-man-Milford-resident-pulled-o ver-by-3549631.php#ixzz1uZtp8W47 Joel Cehn joelc at alum.wpi.edu _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "Before the Law" "A man from the country seeks the law and wishes to gain entry to the law through a doorway. The doorkeeper tells the man that he cannot go through at the present time. The man asks if he can ever go through, and the doorkeeper says that it is possible. The man waits by the door for years, bribing the doorkeeper with everything he has. The doorkeeper accepts the bribes, but tells the man that he accepts them "so that you do not think you have failed to do anything." The man did not attempt to murder or hurt the doorkeeper to gain the law, but waits at the door until he is about to die. Right before his death, he asks the doorkeeper why even though everyone seeks the law, no one else has come in all the years. The doorkeeper answers "No one else could ever be admitted here, since this gate was made only for you. I am now going to shut it." Stewart Farber, MSPH SAFarber at optonline.net -----Original Message----- From: Strickert, Rick [mailto:rstrickert at signaturescience.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:45 PM To: SAFarber at optonline.net; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] DOE - Court Ruling on Nuclear Waste Fund Collection Justification See - http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/4B11622F4FF75FEC85257A100 050A681/$file/11-1066-1376508.pdf U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, No. 11-1066: NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REGULATORY UTILITY COMMISSIONERS, PETITIONER v. UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, RESPONDENT Rick Strickert Austin, TX -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:33 AM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: [ RadSafe ] DOE - Court Ruling on Nuclear Waste Fund Collection Justification If this has been posted already, sorry: A District Court Court rules on DOE nuclear waste fund -against the legal basis for DOE collecting fees. DOE must justify consumers adding to $30 billion collected [at rate of $0.01/kwhr ] to date since it cancelled Yucca. Wow, do those pennies add up!! See: http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2012/06/court-rules-on-nuclear-waste-fund. html Excerpt from above: The National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners (NARUC) called the court decision an "important victory." "The court made clear that the Energy Department has not justified continued payments into the Nuclear Waste Fund," said NARUC President David Wright. "Today's decision will force the Energy Department to do its job and prove why it should continue fees for a nuclear-waste program that it says no longer exists. We believe the evidence demonstrates that until and unless a new nuclear-waste policy is developed, consumers should be given a break." Stewart Farber, MSPH SAFarber at optonline.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.gen-4.org/GIF/About/faq/faq-concepts1.htm#4 What inherent aspects of the systems under development will guard against nuclear proliferation? Along with the physical and administrative monitoring, control and security measures currently in place, careful selection of the fuel composition and of the reprocessing techniques may further increase the proliferation resistance of the nuclear fuel cycle. Making nuclear material less suitable for use in a nuclear weapon, or less prone to diversion for such use, can be achieved in three different ways, which are not reactor but fuel cycle specific: a) By increasing the radiological intensity of the material itself, so that it cannot be handled without severely exposing the people handling it or without heavy and specialized shielding equipment, b) By assuring that at no point during the fuel cycle will the isotopic composition of the fuel be suitable for the production of an explosive nuclear device, without prior complex reprocessing, c) By minimizing the opportunities for diversion, such as during intermediate storage, transport to and from reprocessing, etc. Most of the Generation IV systems involve fast reactors relying on multiple reprocessing and recycling of fuel, which essentially address all three of the above strategies. Whereas current reprocessing techniques such as the PUREX process use aqueous chemistry (dissolution of spent fuel in strong acids) to extract uranium and plutonium, independently of each other, from the remaining mixture of minor actinides and fission products, advanced reprocessing techniques aim at separating a mixture of all actinides (including U and Pu) from the fission products. This mixture of actinides can be recycled in a fast reactor but is not suitable for use in nuclear weapons. Non-aqueous reprocessing techniques are also under development. These techniques are pyro-metallurgical processes, known as pyro-processing, and are based on the electrolysis of spent fuel using molten salts as an electrolytic bath. Heavy metals are separated on one electrode and fission products remain in the salt. The main advantage of pyro-processing, and its use for the separation of all actinides, is the relative simplicity of the process and its compactness. This allows the reprocessing facility to be installed on the same site as the fast reactor thereby maintaining maximum physical protection of sensitive material by avoiding transport to and from a central reprocessing plant. An even more advanced version of on-site reprocessing is possible in the most futuristic of the six systems selected in Generation IV, the Molten Salt Reactor (MSR). In this reactor, the fuel and coolant are one, and co-exist as a molten salt circulating through the core. A small fraction of this liquid is continuously extracted from the primary circuit and processed, to extract fission products only, in an chemical plant integrated in the reactor building. The "cleaned" salt is then fed back into the primary circuit. Here again, all actinides stay together and are recycled thereby avoiding transports to a central reprocessing facility. A cross-cutting activity in the Generation IV framework aims at developing a methodology for the evaluation of the proliferation resistance of the different Generation IV systems using number of criteria and quantitative or qualitative indicators (see http://www.gen-4.org/Technology/horizontal/PRPPEM.pdf ). =========================== -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Street Sent: June-10-12 6:06 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Gen IV questions I know that Gen IV has plans to make nuclear power more proliferation-resistent, eg, poison the plutonium for those who reprocess so no bomb could be made, and deliver uranium with the power plant, so no one need make their own fuel. First, is what I know true? Second, will these generally be true? True of all plants sold to Iran? What? Thanks -- Best wishes, Karen Street Friends Energy Project blog http://pathsoflight.us/musing/index.php _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: emails were leaked from the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia in England, showed that certain senior members of the research community were, and presumably still are, quite capable of deliberately selecting data in order to overstate the evidence for dangerous climate change." A companion sentence could easily be, "The Climategate scandal of 2009, wherein thousands of emails were leaked from the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia in England, showed that certain senior members of the Climate Change Doubter Community were, and presumably still are, quite capable of deliberately selecting data in order to overstate the evidence for dangerous climate change conspiracy." =20 Much of Climategate has been shown to be produced by presenting emails out of context, to support a different agenda. Regardless of whether man-made CO2 is a climate issue, there are several thing that are not in dispute: 1) Throwing crap up into the air is bad. Almost any form of burning throws crap up into the air. It has little effect when there is only a little, and larger effect when there is a lot. =20 2) Deforestation is bad. Whether you believe forest remove a significant amount of CO2 or not really doesn't matter, at their effects on the water cycle, flooding, erosion, and a number of other areas are clear. 3) Transporting energy long distances is bad. Whether it is coal, oil, refined oil products, or electricity (regardless of source), the farther you have to transport it, the more energy it takes, and the smaller return on investment you get (anyone who wishes to argue that small return on investment is good is welcome to it). Things that reduce energy needs by improving efficiency, and things that produce energy closer to the load are almost always good economic payoffs, and usually address other issues, too. =20 Even if you don't believe in climate change, you ought to believe in economics. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Maury Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:26 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: [ RadSafe ] Climate science & nuclear sciences Radiation safety is intimately dependent upon Science and is heavily=20 related to the climate sciences because science and engineering are the=20 most likely means for promoting the acceptability and safe applications=20 of ionizing radiation for benefits to mankind (and probably also to=20 armadillos). This essay (click on link below) by Paltridge affords one=20 of the best perspectives on Science and Climate that I've ever seen. I hope many of you will find it equally so. Best, Maury&Dog [MaurySiskel maurysis at peoplepc.com] http://afr.com/p/lifestyle/review/science_held_hostage_in_climate_Uamwgc 7zXEsU6RbQJ5MWIJ Science held hostage in climate debate By Garth Paltridge _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: politicians & public. Adding reprocessing would probably make the job twice as tough. I also think its important not to forget the significant challenges of handling, dismantling and re-fabricating SNF robotically, whilst maintaining cooling throughout the process (presumably submerged in a pool of sodium). We usually hear only about the electro-reprocessing facilities, but there must be more to it than that. For example, look at the robotic infrastructure for handling irradiated fuel in reactors where on-line refuelling is performed, such as in Candu reactors. The robotic fuelling machines are some of the most expensive pieces of equipment in the plant ! .....and all they do, is just move fuel bundles around: no disassembly, chopping up, conversion to fluoride salts, electro-refining, re-conversion to metal and later re-casting and re-fabricating the fuel elements. Defective fueling machines have in the past put Candu plants out of action for extended periods, while the robotic mechanisms are repaired. With so little information about IFR/PRISM available publicly, we can only speculate what sort of problems a more complex robotic system, working in a pool of opaque, flammable sodium coolant could cause (the fueling machines are continuously cooled, as the radioactive fuel inside generates a lot of heat). In the book "Plentiful Energy - The story of the Integral Fast Reactor" (http://bravenewclimate.com/2012/02/19/ifr-fad-10/ ) it is claimed that "spent metal fuel can be processed with much cheaper techniques" than oxide SNF. That isn't really saying much ! What fraction of plutonium and other TRUs slip through the processing & into the waste stream ? ...at what cost, for each factor-of-ten improvement ? And if we don't care that much about the waste stream, then why bother reprocessing at all ? Evidently, that is the intent for the UK bid. Wouldn't it be better to limit the fuel processing to a simple "melt-refining" that just removes the fuel-damaging, neutron-absorbing volatile fission products ? According to TerraPower (the Bill Gates outfit), periodic melt refining in their TWR reactor allows burn-ups exceeding 50% to be achieved. If the "melt-refining" is carried out in recycled fuel rod tubes (ie. no chopping up, fluoride conversion, electro-refining & re-fabrication), then the reprocessing plant essentially disappears. (See http://lumma.org/temp/Ellis_et_al-TWRs_A_Truly_Sustainable_Resource.pdf ) Jaro ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of George Stanford Sent: July-02-12 1:13 AM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] [NucNews] Which nuclear technology has future? Dear Dr. Parthasarathy: Thanks for your note. It raises some interesting thoughts. I intersperse some comments below. . At 10:06 PM 7/1/2012, parthasarathy k s wrote: >Dear Dr Stanford, > >Who will spend money for the developmental efforts? Uranium is cheaply >available. LWR is not certainly the best; but it is readily available. >Funding for R & D on newer technologies will have to come from the >Government. I recall your comments that IFR technology is more >completely developed compared to the breeders. . GSS: (a) Actually, the IFR IS a breeder -- or else a net burner of Pu, or an "isobreeder," depending on its loading. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: radioactive element. Using the buildup and decay of the daughters in the thorium decay series, the age of a gas lantern mantle can be determined." Keywords: Laboratory experiments and apparatus, Other topics in radioactive decay and in-beam spectroscopy DOI: 10.1119/1.13490 I have the paper buried in my old papers, but it appears one can purchase it via the above link if interested. Stewart Farber ======================= -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart Farber Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:11 PM To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List' Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Texsport Item #14210 - Lantern Mantles Using "real" lantern mantles for a calibration is neat. I recall using two of the major peaks in the complex decay series of Th-232 and its daughters to do a two point energy calibration of a portable Ge detector I was using away from home. Plus despite the prohibition of carrying "radioactive" materials on a plane I would think you won't end up in Guantanamo being mistaken for a terrorist by bringing a lantern mantle on-board, or trying to create a dirty bomb. However, the total gamma activity in a lantern mantle changes with time. After being made with fresh Th, the activity declines for the first 5 years or so, and then increases from 5 to 20 years before reaching equilibrium. See the following for some good general info on Thorium put together by ORAU's Paul Frame: I recall seeing a paper 30 years ago by a Professor from a small NYState college regarding determining the age of a lantern mantle based on the ratio of various isotopes present. But no matter what, a lantern mantle does make a great item to demonstrate aspects of natural radioactivity. And if it is a "standard" real mantle, it should be do problem in counting contrary to what Chris Alston happened to see. Several Coleman mantles I have show 20,000 cpm or more with a standard pancake GM [ Ludlum 44-9 for example] on contact. If you don't see 15K cpm or more, you've been give a substandard Th mantle. Bear in mind that there are non-Th mantles on the market. However, the non-Th mantles are not as good, and a black market has sprung up among people who want to get their hands on the real stuff yielding max brightness so they don't walk into trees at night while camping, on their way to the bathrooms. Perhaps you can file a complaint with your State AG Consumer Protection division that you've been victimized in purchasing a substandard Chinese product as a consumer and have NOT received the full amount of radioactivity you've paid for!! :-) And please, I'm kidding about being cheated of your radioactivity. It's been shown previously on this List that an attempt at humor is sometimes not recognized as being facetious. Stewart Farber, MSPH Farber Medical Solutions, LLC Bridgeport, CT 06604 SAFarber at optonline.net 203-441-8433 -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of John R Johnson Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:30 PM To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Texsport Item #14210 - Lantern Mantles Mike Mantle containing Th are useful because they can be used for calibrations. Just make sure that they are left in the package they were sold in. John On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) < Mike.Brennan at doh.wa.gov> wrote: > My take, only somewhat flip, is that you can't trust a Chinese product > contains what it is supposed to and only what it is supposed to, even > if what it is supposed to contain is something that would freak out > many environmentalists. > > -----Original Message----- > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Alston > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:38 PM > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing > List > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Texsport Item #14210 - Lantern Mantles > > Folks > > The packets of these mantles, the which are Made in China, give as the > primary ingredients nitrates and hydroxides of Th. Another > ingredient, for what it is worth, is cerium. They are also labelled > with all sorts of cautionary messages in re proper handling, including > warnings that they emit radioactive materials, and that California > knows them to be carcinogenic. I see no significant readings, i.e., > there may be a slight excursion above background with a pancake GM at > contact, but certainly not the check-source-worthy output one would > expect. Does anyone have a take on this? It has occurred to me that > the packet may be intended for use with mantles from one supplier, but > was filled in the factory with mantles of the same spec from a > different supplier. > > TIA and > > Cheers > cja _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Dec 17 10:13:44 2011 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: the lifetime doses of all 1,080 subjects from their hourly dose measurements by using conditions that maximized them." In other words, substituted progressively more and more unrealistic assumptions for realistic assumptions, until they got results they wanted. -----Original Message----- From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:26 AM To: RADSAFE Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fukushima children did receive radiation to thyroidglands This nuclear news posting misstates what is actually contained in this article that asserts that children received some radiation to their thyroid glands as opposed to government claims that they received zero radiation - it is typical of the way that news stories are spun and hyped by Christina MacPherson in Australia on her widely read nuclear-news Word Press blog and the e-mails sent from that site to presumably thousands of people around the world http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201207110058 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: nuclear-news Date: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:04 AM Subject: [New post] Fukushima children did receive high radiation to thyroid glands To: rwhelbig at gmail.com New post on nuclear-news Fukushima children did receive high radiation to thyroid glands by Christina MacPherson Study finds lifetime thyroid doses of radiation in Fukushima children July 11, 2012 By YURI OIWA/ Staff Writer Children in Fukushima Prefecture likely received thyroid gland doses of internal radiation, despite earlier government assurances that the levels of such doses were zero, according to an independent study...... subscription only http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201207110058 Christina MacPherson | July 12, 2012 at 7:04 am | Categories: Fukushima 2012 | URL: http://wp.me/phgse-6EY Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nuclear-news.net/2012/07/12/fukushima-children-did-receive-high-r adiation-to-thyroid-glands/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu