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radsafe-digest V1 #364
radsafe-digest Friday, March 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 364
In this issue:
Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Radon no longer number 2 in lung cancer!?
Re: DRY STORAGE OF Cs/Sr CAPSULES
RE: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia
RF controlled instruments
Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Article on Workplace pollution and DOE Nuclear Workers
Re: Dirty bomb predictions
Radiotherapy: breast
Re: Re-2: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia
Funding available for physical protection conference in Europe
Re: Dirty bomb predictions
RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
BetaData Format
Re: Dirty bomb predictions
RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Jr/Sr HP Techs Needed
Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
NIMBY for Nevada residents
RE: BetaData Format
Re: Dirty bomb predictions
Re: BetaData Format
Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Dirty Bomb Predictions
Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Re: Dirty Bomb Predictions (ugh!)
Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
PTSD
RE: Dirty Bomb Predictions
Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:58:46 EST
From: RuthWeiner@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
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In a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov writes:
> While there were no deaths following the accident phase, people may have
> been traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to be recognized as
>
Here is a real question, especially for any medical doctors out there:
What differentiates fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear become
"trauma?" Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my Ph. D. oral
prelim (don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate physical
symptoms), my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye surgery, sailing in a
storm. I was scared enough to be physically ill, but I certainly didn't
suffer POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers on a battlefield cope with fear all
the time, but all of them do not suffer post-traumatic stress. Women in
labor are frightened. Anyone who has been mugged has known fear.
Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
ruthweiner@aol.com
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2><B>In a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While there were no deaths following the accident phase, people may have
<BR>been traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to be recognized as
<BR>an illness and treated.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>
<BR>Here is a real question, especially for any medical doctors out there:
<BR>
<BR>What differentiates fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear become "trauma?" Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my Ph. D. oral prelim (don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate physical symptoms), my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye surgery, sailing in a storm. I was scared enough to be physically ill, but I certainly didn't suffer POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers on a battlefield cope with fear all the time, but all of them do not suffer post-traumatic stress. Women in labor are frightened. Anyone who has been mugged has known fear.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#008000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
<BR>ruthweiner@aol.com</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 20:20:12 +0000
From: Muckerheide <muckerheide@attbi.com>
Subject: Radon no longer number 2 in lung cancer!?
Friends,
Is it true? :-)
http://www.iht.com/articles/50283.html
Regards, Jim
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:05:08 -0500
From: "Jim Nicolosi" <jfnicolosi@tds.net>
Subject: Re: DRY STORAGE OF Cs/Sr CAPSULES
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Randy...A few years back I did the root cause analysis for the leaking =
Cs-137 WESF sources at Hanford...As far as I know, wet storage is the =
preferred methodology. However, a number of commercial nuclear power =
plants have built independent spent fuel storage facilities which are =
dry storage units. It would seem to me that the same technology could =
be used for these.
Jim Nicolosi
Nuclear Safety Management
Knoxville, TN
865-671-2050 (O)
865-675-6375 (H)
865-661-1130 (Cell)
email: jfnicolosi@tds.net=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Randall_F_Brich@RL.GOV=20
To: radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu=20
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: DRY STORAGE OF Cs/Sr CAPSULES
Radsafers:
A colleague has asked if I knew of anyone in the world who is dry =
storing high activity cesium and strontium capsules. Hopefully, someone =
on Radsafe will know the answer OR will know of other dry storage of =
high activity material which could be analogous to Cs/Sr capsules.=20
The capsules are in the form of salts (ie, CsCl) and are currently =
wet-stored at a government facility.
Thank you,
Randy Brich=20
Program Integration Manager=20
Tanks Focus Area=20
509-372-4617 (phone)=20
509-372-4549 (fax)=20
randall_f_brich@rl.gov=20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2713.1100" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Randy...A few years back I did the root =
cause=20
analysis for the leaking Cs-137 WESF sources at Hanford...As far as =
I=20
know, wet storage is the preferred methodology. =
However, a=20
number of commercial nuclear power plants have built independent spent =
fuel=20
storage facilities which are dry storage units. It would seem to =
me that=20
the same technology could be used for these.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jim Nicolosi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nuclear Safety Management<BR>Knoxville, =
TN<BR>865-671-2050 (O)<BR>865-675-6375 (H)<BR>865-661-1130 =
(Cell)<BR>email: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:jfnicolosi@tds.net";>jfnicolosi@tds.net</A></FONT> </D=
IV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DRandall_F_Brich@RL.GOV=20
href=3D"mailto:Randall_F_Brich@RL.GOV";>Randall_F_Brich@RL.GOV</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dradsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu=20
=
href=3D"mailto:radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu";>radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 07, 2002 =
5:21=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> DRY STORAGE OF Cs/Sr=20
CAPSULES</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Radsafers:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>A=20
colleague has asked if I knew of anyone in the world who is dry=20
storing high activity cesium and strontium capsules. =
Hopefully,=20
someone on Radsafe will know the answer OR will know of other dry =
storage of=20
high activity material which could be analogous to Cs/Sr capsules.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The=20
capsules are in the form of salts (ie, CsCl) and are currently =
wet-stored at a=20
government facility.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Thank you,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800080>Randy=20
Brich</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800080>Program =
Integration=20
Manager</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800080>Tanks Focus =
Area</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800080>509-372-4617 (phone)</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#800080>509-372-4549 (fax)</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#800080>randall_f_brich@rl.gov </FONT></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140591422-07032002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 12:29:10 +0800
From: "Dahlskog, Leif" <Leif.Dahlskog@HEALTH.WA.GOV.AU>
Subject: RE: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia
Jetty
A colleague advised that the alternative to ionization type smoke detectors,
the photoelectric type, are not that effective, especially in some types of
fires.
However, I would be interested in your views about that and about any other
types of smoke detector and there effectiveness compared to the ionization
type.
regards
Leif Dahlskog
Radiation Health Section
Department of Health
Western Australia
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jetty [mailto:jmiddelkoop@ZONNET.NL]
> Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2002 4:29 AM
> To: George.Koperski@nt.gov.au; radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
> Subject: Re: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia
>
>
> Hello Radsafers,
>
> With regards to the Netherlands, the situation used to be
> largely comparable
> to Australia and the UK.
>
> However, in building legislation the use of smoke detectors has become
> obligatory in new houses.
>
> As a result the amount of smoke detectors (most of them being
> the ionisation
> type, this being the cheapest type) has risen enormously
> these last years.
> This has led to an evaluation of the situation with regard to
> disposal, as
> you may expect large numbers of waste detectors within the
> next decade.
> There are more and more good alternatives for ionisation
> smoke detectors on
> the market. Therefore the selling of ionisation smoke
> detectors will be
> forbidden in 2005. I believe that in Switserland their use
> has already been
> forbidden for some years.
>
> Jetty Middelkoop
> Fire department of Amsterdam
>
>
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> You are currently subscribed to the Radsafe mailing list. To
> unsubscribe,
> send an e-mail to Majordomo@list.vanderbilt.edu Put the text
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> You can view the Radsafe archives at
> http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:36:00 -0700
From: Brian Rees <brees@LANL.GOV>
Subject: RF controlled instruments
A few years back I remember seeing a company that modified instruments to
be controlled via radio for training purposes. Does anyone have contact
information?
Thanks in advance.
Brian Rees
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:04:11 EST
From: RuthWeiner@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
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I'm not trying to minimize the problem (and you know I really resent the
implication that because I ask a straightforward question, I have some kind
of agenda. I DON'T!), but trying to figure out when it exists. The
definition (which I had already read) is (was) not enlightening. All fear,
and all fearful events, do not result in POST traumatic stress (syndrome or
no syndrome). I keep emphasizing "post" because it means "after" the fearful
event. Everyone experiences fear at some time or another, unless he or she
leads a dreadfully sheltered, uneventful life, and most episodes of fear do
not result in post traumatic stress. Even truly awful, continuing,
frightening situations do not always have this result; have you read the
works of Primo Levi, who was an Italian partisan and interned at Auschwitz?
You should -- they would re-introduce you to the real world.
I actually have a close friend who does suffer from post-traumatic stress,
because the nature of his work (which he had to give up) was such that he
encountered very frightening situations on a continuing basis for many years,
and that makes sense to me. But a single episode with no lasting consequence
might be very frightening to an adult, but it seems to me would hardly result
in after-the-fact, or "post traumatic" stress (though it might in a child).
The reiteration after radioactive accidents that "there were no deaths and no
health damage but there were many victims of psychological stress" does not
sound very credible in light of ordinary human experience. I'm trying to
figure out just how credible it is.
Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
ruthweiner@aol.com
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2><B>I'm not trying to minimize the problem (and you know I really resent the implication that because I ask a straightforward question, I have some kind of agenda. I DON'T!), but trying to figure out when it exists. The definition (which I had already read) is (was) not enlightening. All fear, and all fearful events, do not result in POST traumatic stress (syndrome or no syndrome). I keep emphasizing "post" because it means "after" the fearful event. Everyone experiences fear at some time or another, unless he or she leads a dreadfully sheltered, uneventful life, and most episodes of fear do not result in post traumatic stress. Even truly awful, continuing, frightening situations do not always have this result; have you read the works of Primo Levi, who was an Italian partisan and interned at Auschwitz? You should -- they would re-introduce you to the real world.
<BR>
<BR>I actually have a close friend who does suffer from post-traumatic stress, because the nature of his work (which he had to give up) was such that he encountered very frightening situations on a continuing basis for many years, and that makes sense to me. But a single episode with no lasting consequence might be very frightening to an adult, but it seems to me would hardly result in after-the-fact, or "post traumatic" stress (though it might in a child).
<BR>
<BR>The reiteration after radioactive accidents that "there were no deaths and no health damage but there were many victims of psychological stress" does not sound very credible in light of ordinary human experience. I'm trying to figure out just how credible it is.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#008000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
<BR>ruthweiner@aol.com</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 01:15:58 EST
From: LassePer@AOL.COM
Subject: Article on Workplace pollution and DOE Nuclear Workers
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Pls note the article Workplace Pollution: Nuclear safety, Ethics, and
Exploitation-Avoidance by K Shader-Frechette, Univ of Notre Dame, IN
published in Risk - Health, Safety and Environment Volume 12 No 3/4 Fall
2001. She has taken up DOE:s Nuclear Workers in a case study.
Lars Persson
Retired from SSI,Sweden
Tubv 16
17546 Jarfalla
+4687297103
No fax
LP Radiation Protection Corp
Lars Persson
Tubv 16
17546 Jarfalla
+4687297103
No fax
LP Radiation Protection Corp
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="5">Pls note the article Workplace Pollution: Nuclear safety, Ethics, and Exploitation-Avoidance by K Shader-Frechette, Univ of Notre Dame, IN published in Risk - Health, Safety and Environment Volume 12 No 3/4 Fall 2001. She has taken up DOE:s Nuclear Workers in a case study. <BR>
Lars Persson<BR>
Retired from SSI,Sweden<BR>
Tubv 16<BR>
17546 Jarfalla<BR>
+4687297103<BR>
No fax<BR>
LP Radiation Protection Corp </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="5"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="5"><BR>
<BR>
Lars Persson<BR>
Tubv 16<BR>
17546 Jarfalla<BR>
+4687297103<BR>
No fax<BR>
LP Radiation Protection Corp </FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 08:37:21 +0200
From: "J. J. Rozental" <joseroze@NETVISION.NET.IL>
Subject: Re: Dirty bomb predictions
It was the first Conference devoted to the safety of radiation sources and
the security of radioactive materials.
experience with criminal acts involving radioactive materials; Detection and
identification techniques for illicitly trafficked radioactive materials
Proceedings of an international conference jointly organized by the EC,
IAEA, INTERPOL and WCO and held in Dijon, France, 14-18 September 1998
There is a scenario at
http://www.home.eznet.net/~kenberry/materials/RADEX.htm
" The Federal Bureau of Investigation has issued an alert and shares
information with key local, state, and federal staff on Tuesday, March 18,
1997. A terrorist group has phoned the St. Paul Police Department stating
that their group has built a radioactive bomb and will detonate it at a
public facility unless their demands are met within 48 hours........."
b)
c) To have real idea on Cs-137 in the soil read the following papers:
d)
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:30:26 +0200
From: "Christoph Hofmeyr" <chofmeyr@nnr.co.za>
Subject: Radiotherapy: breast
Radsafers,
I would appreciate information on radiation therapy (preferred type of
radiation, exposure, fractionation, duration of treatment regime) which
is typically administered after breast-conserving therapy for ductal
carcinoma in situ (DCIS) after excision of a lump below the nipple line.
Chris Hofmeyr
chofmeyr@nnr.co.za
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:20:19 +0100
From: Peter Jaros <jaros@UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Re-2: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia
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Hello Radsafers,
in Swiss domestic smoke detectors are not forbidden generally. But you need a permission and in future
new permissions will not be given. Old detectors you can use further. Cerebus will stop the production
but service is available also in future.
Peter Jaros
Isotope Laboratories
udo.blaseg@ISOTOPES.COM schrieb:
> We are interested to recycle / dispose ionisation smoke detectors (Am-241, Kr-85) all over Europe.
> Please contact: radsafe@isotopes.com
>
> Udo Blaseg
> Isotope Products Laboratories Europe Blaseg GmbH
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia (06-Mrz-2002 22:22)
> From: jmiddelkoop@ZONNET.NL
> To: UDO.BLASEG@ISOTOPES.COM
>
> > Hello Radsafers,
> >
> > With regards to the Netherlands, the situation used to be largely
> > comparable
> > to Australia and the UK.
> >
> > However, in building legislation the use of smoke detectors has become
> > obligatory in new houses.
> >
> > As a result the amount of smoke detectors (most of them being the
> > ionisation
> > type, this being the cheapest type) has risen enormously these last years.
> > This has led to an evaluation of the situation with regard to disposal, as
> > you may expect large numbers of waste detectors within the next decade.
> > There are more and more good alternatives for ionisation smoke detectors on
> > the market. Therefore the selling of ionisation smoke detectors will be
> > forbidden in 2005. I believe that in Switserland their use has already been
> > forbidden for some years.
> >
> > Jetty Middelkoop
> > Fire department of Amsterdam
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************************************************
> > You are currently subscribed to the Radsafe mailing list. To unsubscribe,
> > send an e-mail to Majordomo@list.vanderbilt.edu Put the text "unsubscribe
> > radsafe" (no quote marks) in the body of the e-mail, with no subject line.
> > You can view the Radsafe archives at http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/
> >
>
> ************************************************************************
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> radsafe" (no quote marks) in the body of the e-mail, with no subject line.
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- --
********************************
PD Dr. Peter P. Jaros
Univ. Oldenburg
Abt. Zoophysiol. & Verhalten
D-26111 Oldenburg
Tel +49/+441/7983399
Fax +49/+441/7985615
********************************
- --------------06EFD2940ED939C95298B7E3
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<html>
Hello Radsafers,
<p>in Swiss domestic smoke detectors are not forbidden generally. But you
need a permission and in future new permissions will not be given. Old
detectors you can use further. <i>Cerebus</i> will stop the production
but service is available also in future.
<p>Peter Jaros
<br>Isotope Laboratories
<br>
<p>udo.blaseg@ISOTOPES.COM schrieb:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>We are interested to recycle / dispose ionisation
smoke detectors (Am-241, Kr-85) all over Europe.
<br>Please contact: radsafe@isotopes.com
<p>Udo Blaseg
<br>Isotope Products Laboratories Europe Blaseg GmbH
<p>-------- Original Message --------
<br>Subject: Re: Domestic smoke detector disposal in Australia (06-Mrz-2002
22:22)
<br>From: jmiddelkoop@ZONNET.NL
<br>To: UDO.BLASEG@ISOTOPES.COM
<p>> Hello Radsafers,
<br>>
<br>> With regards to the Netherlands, the situation used to be largely
<br>> comparable
<br>> to Australia and the UK.
<br>>
<br>> However, in building legislation the use of smoke detectors has become
<br>> obligatory in new houses.
<br>>
<br>> As a result the amount of smoke detectors (most of them being the
<br>> ionisation
<br>> type, this being the cheapest type) has risen enormously these last
years.
<br>> This has led to an evaluation of the situation with regard to disposal,
as
<br>> you may expect large numbers of waste detectors within the next decade.
<br>> There are more and more good alternatives for ionisation smoke detectors
on
<br>> the market. Therefore the selling of ionisation smoke detectors will
be
<br>> forbidden in 2005. I believe that in Switserland their use has already
been
<br>> forbidden for some years.
<br>>
<br>> Jetty Middelkoop
<br>> Fire department of Amsterdam
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> ************************************************************************
<br>> You are currently subscribed to the Radsafe mailing list. To unsubscribe,
<br>> send an e-mail to Majordomo@list.vanderbilt.edu Put the text
"unsubscribe
<br>> radsafe" (no quote marks) in the body of the e-mail, with no subject
line.
<br>> You can view the Radsafe archives at <a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/";>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/</a>
<br>>
<p>************************************************************************
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<br>send an e-mail to Majordomo@list.vanderbilt.edu Put the text
"unsubscribe
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<p>--
<br>********************************
<br>PD Dr. Peter P. Jaros
<br>Univ. Oldenburg
<br>Abt. Zoophysiol. & Verhalten
<br>D-26111 Oldenburg
<br>Tel +49/+441/7983399
<br>Fax +49/+441/7985615
<br>********************************
<br> </html>
- --------------06EFD2940ED939C95298B7E3--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 12:10:18 +0100
From: Friedrich Steinhaeusler <Friedrich.Steinhaeusler@mh.sbg.ac.at>
Subject: Funding available for physical protection conference in Europe
Dear colleagues,
I would like to inform you about the forthcoming European
Union-International Conference on Physical Protection:
<italic>Strengthening Global Practices for Protecting Nuclear Material
(</italic>NUMAT Conference), Salzburg (Austria), Sept. 8-13, 2002. This
may be of particular interest to "young" scientists (EU lingo, age 35 or
less) because the Commission has provided us with dedicated funds to
assist selected candidates with funding (travel and hotel). For further
information, please visit us at http://www.numat.at, contact the NUMAT
Secretariat (physik@sbg.ac.at), or contact me directly at Stanford
University (fjs@stanford.edu).
Hope to see you in Salzburg!
F. Steinhausler
Prof. F. Steinhausler
Institute for Physics and Biophysics
University of Salzburg
Hellbrunnerstr. 34
A-5020 Salzburg
Austria
Tel.: +43/662-8044-5700
cellular phone: +43/676-304 8256
Fax: +43/662-8044-150
email: friedrich.steinhaeusler@sbg.ac.at
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:17:42 +0200
From: "J. J. Rozental" <joseroze@NETVISION.NET.IL>
Subject: Re: Dirty bomb predictions
Dear colleagues apologize for the last incomplete e-mail
a) The international conference jointly organized by the EC,
IAEA, INTERPOL and WCO and held in Dijon, France, 14-18 September 1998
was the first Conference devoted to the safety of radiation sources and
the security of radioactive materials.
It was discussed the experience with criminal acts involving radioactive
materials; Detection and
identification techniques for illicitly trafficked radioactive materials and
there are interesting papers in the
Proceedings and IAEA TECDOC 1045
I have the pdf form containing abstracts on terrorism (140 pages) to those
interested, please send me an e-mail.
b) About dirty bomb there is a scenario at
http://www.home.eznet.net/~kenberry/materials/RADEX.htm
" The Federal Bureau of Investigation has issued an alert and shares
information with key local, state, and federal staff on Tuesday, March 18,
1997. A terrorist group has phoned the St. Paul Police Department stating
that their group has built a radioactive bomb and will detonate it at a
public facility unless their demands are met within 48 hours........."
In this scenario de dirty bomb was made using a ~2 TBq (50 Ci) Ir-192
source. Iridium is metallic form, so residuals is not so complex as using
Cs-137 source, because old Cs-137 sources (abandoned, lost, orphan) are in
form of salt, Caesium Chloride powder, as in Goiania Accident. In Goiania,
initial radiation surveys were conducted on foot over the contaminated
areas, some of them with dose levels of up to 2 Sv/h (200 rem/h) at one
metre - (I was there).
The main problem with a dirty bomb will not be the technical group to work,
there are very good groups around the world and at IAEA, to deal with the
situation considering the radiological impact, however the psychological
impact will be a questioon of major concern. This is the main point where
people should be trained. Unfortunatelly in so many emergency courses the
topics Media and Public Communication and Psychological Impac are very poor.
c) To have a real idea on Cs-137 in the soil I recommend to read the
following papers published in the Health Physics 60 Number 1 -January 1991,
Special Issue the Goiania Accident
(i) Distribution of Cs-137 in soils due to the Goiania Accident and
Decisions for for Remedial Action During the Recovery Phase (pages 91/98)
(ii) Cesium 137 in the Goiania Waterways During and After the Radiological
Accident (pages99/103)
Jose Julio Rozental
joseroze@netvision.net.il
Israel
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:19:20 -0500
From: "Jacobus, John (OD/ORS)" <jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov>
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Ruth,
I would say that fear is a response that is based on a response to danger.
We have all had experiences that have frightened us, but the sensations pass
immediately or after a time. However, there are events that trigger a
psychological response in some people that does not go away. It used to be
called shell-shock in World War I, battle fatigue in World War II, and now
post-traumatic stress. Some never recover, even when they go back to the
civilian world. And like all medical and psychological conditions, there
are different degrees of response. For some, an event such as a loud noise
will cause them to have a momentary flashback. For others, they are unable
to function in society: they cannot hold jobs, have relationships with
friends and family, turn to drugs or alcohol. The trauma is that the fear
response does not go away, and interferes with normal life. I am sure you
have read of people who have been mugged and are constantly in fear of it
happening again.
- -- John
- -----Original Message-----
From: RuthWeiner@aol.com [mailto:RuthWeiner@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:59 PM
To: Jacobus, John (OD/ORS); radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
In a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov writes:
While there were no deaths following the accident phase, people may have
been traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to be recognized as
an illness and treated.
Here is a real question, especially for any medical doctors out there:
What differentiates fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear become
"trauma?" Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my Ph. D. oral
prelim (don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate physical
symptoms), my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye surgery, sailing in a
storm. I was scared enough to be physically ill, but I certainly didn't
suffer POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers on a battlefield cope with fear
all the time, but all of them do not suffer post-traumatic stress. Women in
labor are frightened. Anyone who has been mugged has known fear.
Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
ruthweiner@aol.com
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=767210313-08032002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Ruth,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=767210313-08032002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
would say that fear is a response that is based on a response
to danger. We have all had experiences that have frightened us, but
the sensations pass immediately or after a time. However, there are events
that trigger a psychological response in some people that does not go
away. It used to be called shell-shock in World War I, battle fatigue in
World War II, and now post-traumatic stress. Some never recover, even when
they go back to the civilian world. And like all medical and psychological
conditions, there are different degrees of response. For some, an event
such as a loud noise will cause them to have a momentary flashback. For
others, they are unable to function in society: they cannot hold jobs,
have relationships with friends and family, turn to drugs or alcohol. The
trauma is that the fear response does not go away, and interferes with normal
life. I am sure you have read of people who have been mugged and are
constantly in fear of it happening again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>-- John </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> RuthWeiner@aol.com
[mailto:RuthWeiner@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:59
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Jacobus, John (OD/ORS);
radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely
caused 15,000 deaths<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
color=#000080 size=2><B>In a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard
Time, jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov writes: <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">While there were no deaths following the accident phase, people
may have <BR>been traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to
be recognized as <BR>an illness and treated.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT
lang=0 face=Arial color=#000080 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><B><BR>Here is a
real question, especially for any medical doctors out there: <BR><BR>What
differentiates fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear become
"trauma?" Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my Ph. D.
oral prelim (don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate physical
symptoms), my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye surgery, sailing in a
storm. I was scared enough to be physically ill, but I certainly didn't
suffer POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers on a battlefield cope
with fear all the time, but all of them do not suffer post-traumatic stress.
Women in labor are frightened. Anyone who has been mugged has
known fear. <BR><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#008000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></B>Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
<BR>ruthweiner@aol.com</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1C6A3.DB90E6C0--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:31:15 -0500
From: "Jacobus, John (OD/ORS)" <jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov>
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Jack,
I don't think you can compare the two. Astronauts are accepting a risk when
they travel into space. Members of the public near Yucca Mt are not. The
facility will be built (I hope) without their acceptance of it.
- -- John
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jack_Earley@RL.gov [mailto:Jack_Earley@RL.gov]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:38 PM
To: jmuckerheide@cnts.wpi.edu; Jacobus, John (OD/ORS);
radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
I have this bad habit of connecting various pieces and trying to see how
they fit together. So now we have J.J. Rozental's comment, "Problems
affecting protection and safety be promptly identified and corrected in a
manner commensurate with their importance," and wondering how that isn't a
contradiction of ALARA itself. And I see the 4 mrem/y limit for Yucca Mt and
compare it to the 50 rem/y limit for astronauts, and I'm pretty much left
just scratching my head. I think I'll just go catch my flight and hope for a
random solar flare.
Jack Earley
Radiological Engineer
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Muckerheide [mailto:jmuckerheide@cnts.wpi.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
To: Jacobus, John (OD/ORS); RadSafe
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
What's true is that there were NO deaths. We just ignore the fact that
"late-effects," much less negligible late-effects, are NOT what people
consider to be "deaths and injuries from an accident" in any other arena -
EXCEPT for the "personal agenda" of the rad protectionists SOLELY INTENDED,
to defraud the public of $100s Billions!? Remember, the ICRP mafia set the
evac limits at Chernobyl at LESS THAN the AVG natural background level of
Norway, far below "high background" areas. That has been shown to have
killed thousands. But this rad pro mafia still sticks the public with a 4
mrem/year limit at Yucca Mt., and in ground water! Still claims to kill
AEC/DOE workers with occupational doses; and the whole country with fallout.
It's not I that has to look in the mirror every morming and wonder about my
personal integrity!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Jacobus, John (OD/ORS) [mailto:jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov]
Sent: Thu 07-Mar-02 12:39 PM
To: RadSafe
Cc:
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Jim,
My point is that you need to provide the correct information,
whether it
meets your personal agenda or not. When you go from a handful of
childhood
thyroid cancers per decade to hundreds a year, that is a significant
increase. True, there were no deaths, but the number of cases is
cause for
alarm. Particularly when it could have been avoided.
-- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
3050 Traymore Lane
Bowie, MD 20715-2024
E-mail: jenday1@email.msn.com (H)
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Muckerheide [mailto:jmuckerheide@cnts.wpi.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 12:27 PM
To: Jacobus, John (OD/ORS); radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
John,
Don't have time to go back to the numbers I sent to you before, but
it's
like ~1 case out of ~100,000 children exposed to Chernobyl!?
(maybe ~50-60,000 in one high-dose region; ~120,000 in another
moderately
exposed region)
And you'd call it...? :-)
A DISASTER!?
(How about "Not as many as die from fossil fuel releases from a
power plant
in normal operation!?" :-)
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 06:44:35 -0700
From: "Goff, Tom" <Tom.Goff@wipp.ws>
Subject: BetaData Format
Does anyone have the method to decode the beta spectrum in the VARSKIN
BetaData file?
We are looking for a way to determine the relative abundance of each energy
range from the record format.
Thanks
Tom Goff
WIPP ALARA Coordinator
WIPP Integrated Waste Operations
(505) 234-8861
(fax) 885-4562
e-mail Tom.Goff@WIPP.ws
page (505) 234-8850 (pager 479)
P.O. Box 2078
Carlsbad, NM 88221
None of Us is as Smart
as ALL of Us !!!
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:19:56 -0500 (EST)
From: BERNARD L COHEN <blc+@PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dirty bomb predictions
On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 AndrewsJP@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/7/02 11:34:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, blc+@PITT.EDU
> writes:
> >
> > The cesium would be mostly washed away by the first rain, going
> > down sewers. A little work with hoses along with radiation detection
> > meters would be even more efficient. On soil, as in parks, it could be
> > covered with dirt, but that would be a very small part of the exposure.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. The one I cleaned up after was a spill of the material to
> be placed into a sealed source. It got blown around by the air conditioning
> and thourouly contaminated the building containing the operation. Years
> later, when I got involved, some of the Cs-137 was deeply imbeded in the
> concrete where the grains of CsCl(?) were overlooked.
--The discussion that prompted my comment was about an outdoor
dispersal in the middle of a city, where weather gets at the
contamination. It also applies to the vast majority of the contamination,
not every last bit of it. These last bits would not be an effective
instrument for terrorists.
> the issue with sealed sources in dirty bombs is that the material will
> be dispersed in the existing form and not necessarily pulverized into
> breathable sized fractions.
--The discussion was about a claim that the area would be
uninhabitable for dozens of years. Breathing is a problem only for hours.
Please don't harrangue about resuspension -- I can respond to that if
necessary.
> A typical Cs-137 Hastalloy C single encapsulated
> source may even survive the explosion. The same is true for bare cobalt
> rods.
--These would be very easy to locate and remove. They would not be
a long term problem.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:02:51 -0500
From: "Ted Rockwell" <tedrock@CPCUG.ORG>
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Ruth:
No one denies that Chernobyl survivors suffered. There are plenty of
statistics to prove that: alcoholism, suicide, etc. But the question was:
is LDR harmful? The evidence is that it is not. The people of Chernobyl
were injured not by radiation but by horrible (false) stories about what
radiation was going to do to them and to their farms. Those stories, coming
from alleged authorities both medical and governmental, were enough to scare
anyone into physiological symptoms.
To a much lesser degree, we had that at TMI. Surveyors were going from door
to door asking if their children were sick yet, etc. Cochran had a piece in
the NYTimes that read like a Jungian curse: still-births, two-headed sheep,
birds and insects disappearing from the fields, etc. And the statistics
showed that there was significantly increased use of alcohol, sleeping
pills, hospital admissions, etc. None of this was caused by radiation. It
was caused by deliberately induced FEAR of radiation. The distinction is
essential, and has no connection with lack of feeling for people's
suffering. Quite the contrary!
Ted Rockwell
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D360125114-08032002>Ruth:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D360125114-08032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D360125114-08032002>No one =
denies that=20
Chernobyl survivors suffered. There are plenty of statistics to =
prove=20
that: alcoholism, suicide, etc. But the question was: is LDR=20
harmful? The evidence is that it is not. The people of =
Chernobyl=20
were injured not by radiation but by horrible (false) stories about what =
radiation was going to do to them and to their farms. Those =
stories,=20
coming from alleged authorities both medical and governmental, were =
enough to=20
scare anyone into physiological symptoms.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D360125114-08032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D360125114-08032002>To a =
much lesser=20
degree, we had that at TMI. Surveyors were going from door to door =
asking=20
if their children were sick yet, etc. Cochran had a piece in the =
NYTimes=20
that read like a Jungian curse: still-births, two-headed sheep, birds =
and=20
insects disappearing from the fields, etc. And the statistics =
showed that=20
there was significantly increased use of alcohol, sleeping pills, =
hospital=20
admissions, etc. None of this was caused by radiation. It =
was caused=20
by deliberately induced FEAR of radiation. The distinction is =
essential,=20
and has no connection with lack of feeling for people's suffering. =
Quite=20
the contrary!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D360125114-08032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D360125114-08032002>Ted=20
Rockwell</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1C688.68B79C40--
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:18:37 -0500
From: Harry Newman <hresources@NEXTEP.CC>
Subject: Jr/Sr HP Techs Needed
Multifaceted Senior and Junior HP Techs needed in St. Louis, MO. MARRSIM final site survey, demolition and laboratory instrumentation experience desirable. NRRPT Qualifications a plus. References requested. Competitive salary commensurable with experience. To apply please email your resume to Dfry@nextep.cc or fax to 502/339-9275.
Diana Fry
NEXTEP Environmental, Inc.
808 Lyndon Lane, Suite 201
Louisville, KY 40222
502/339-9767
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:20:15 -0600
From: "Michael Stabin" <michael.g.stabin@vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C1C682.74FD73E0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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John Jacobus writes:
> However, there are events that trigger a psychological response in =
some people that does not go away. =20
>...The trauma is that the fear response does not go away, and =
interferes with normal life. =20
My (layman's) theory is that this kind of chronic fear could cause a =
general depression of the body systems, which may lower the efficiency =
of cellular repair processes, leading to incomplete or no repair of some =
DNA damage (which as we know is being caused many times each day in each =
cell, by many agents, radiation being probably one of the very minor =
players). If true, it suggests that irresponsible fear mongering over =
radiation may be responsible for far more cancers than any fallout or =
nuclear plant releases, even using the LNT model. If this theory is at =
all credible, I see major class action suits in the future against major =
media organizations and well funded anti-nuke groups by cancer victims =
and their families, similar to those currently being brought against the =
tobacco industry. We could develop probability of causation tables based =
on age, gender, TV viewing habits, etc. Hey, who's to say that stress =
induced by CBS and/or Greenpeace did NOT cause my cancer? I want a sack =
of money now, please.
Mike
Michael G. Stabin, PhD, CHP
Assistant Professor of Radiology and Radiological Sciences
Department of Radiology and Radiological Sciences
Vanderbilt University
1161 21st Avenue South
Nashville, TN 37232-2675
Phone (615) 343-0068
Fax (615) 322-3764
e-mail michael.g.stabin@vanderbilt.edu
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John Jacobus writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <FONT color=3D#0000ff>However, =
there are events=20
that trigger a psychological response in some people that does not go=20
away. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>>...The trauma =
is that the=20
fear response does not go away, and interferes with normal life. =20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My (layman's) theory is =
that this=20
kind of chronic fear could cause a general depression of the body =
systems, which=20
may lower the efficiency of cellular repair processes, leading to =
incomplete or=20
no repair of some DNA damage (which as we know is being caused many =
times each=20
day in each cell, by many agents, radiation being probably one of the =
very minor=20
players). If true, it suggests that irresponsible fear mongering over =
radiation=20
may be responsible for far more cancers than any fallout or nuclear =
plant=20
releases, even using the LNT model. If this theory is at all credible,=20
I see major class action suits in the future against major media=20
organizations and well funded anti-nuke groups by cancer victims =
and their=20
families, similar to those currently being brought against the tobacco =
industry.=20
We could develop probability of causation tables based on age, gender, =
TV=20
viewing habits, etc. Hey, who's to say that stress induced by CBS =
and/or=20
Greenpeace did NOT cause my cancer? I want a sack of money now,=20
please.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Michael G. Stabin, PhD, CHP<BR>Assistant Professor of Radiology and =
Radiological Sciences<BR>Department of Radiology and Radiological=20
Sciences<BR>Vanderbilt University<BR>1161 21st Avenue =
South<BR>Nashville, TN=20
37232-2675<BR>Phone (615) 343-0068<BR>Fax (615)=20
322-3764<BR>e-mail <A=20
href=3D"mailto:michael.g.stabin@vanderbilt.edu";>michael.g.stabin@vanderbi=
lt.edu</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C1C682.74FD73E0--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:44:01 -0500 (EST)
From: BERNARD L COHEN <blc+@PITT.EDU>
Subject: NIMBY for Nevada residents
NIMBY seems to be a dominant issue for Nevada with regard to Yucca
Mountain Repository. They fear that residents living there thousands of
years from now will be subjected to leakage of radioactivity.
Does anyone consider the question: what is the probability for the
progeny of a present Nevada resident living in Nevada 5000 years from
now?and what is the probability for the progeny of a present Pennsylvania
resident living in Nevada 5000 years from now? Judging by history, or
judging by current migration trends, these two probabilities would both be
very small and approximately the same. How, then, can Nevadans say it is
unjust for waste generated in the East to be buried in Nevada?
Bernard L. Cohen
Physics Dept.
University of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA 15260
Tel: (412)624-9245
Fax: (412)624-9163
e-mail: blc@pitt.edu
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:50:09 -0500
From: "Morgan, Ben" <ben.morgan@pgnmail.com>
Subject: RE: BetaData Format
Tom,
The betadata.dat layout is as follows:
first line: nuclide name
second line: average energy in MeV, ninety percentile distance (X90) in cm,
intensity [relative abundance]
third, fourth, and fifth lines: FBETA values
For more information about VARSKIN and betadata.dat, see:
Michael C. Williams
A Method for Adding Nuclides to VARSKIN and QUINCE Skin Dose Calculation
Software
Radiation Protection Management, Vol. 4, No. 6, pp. 25 - 40
November/December 1987
If you don't have this issue, RPM is published by Radiation Safety
Associates, Inc. at http://www.radpro.com/rpm.html
and you can probably get a reprint from them.
Regards,
Ben
ben.morgan@pgnmail.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Goff, Tom [mailto:Tom.Goff@wipp.ws]
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 8:45 AM
To: 'radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu'
Cc: Kump, Dave; Hayes, Robert
Subject: BetaData Format
Does anyone have the method to decode the beta spectrum in the VARSKIN
BetaData file?
We are looking for a way to determine the relative abundance of each energy
range from the record format.
Thanks
Tom Goff
WIPP ALARA Coordinator
WIPP Integrated Waste Operations
(505) 234-8861
(fax) 885-4562
e-mail Tom.Goff@WIPP.ws
page (505) 234-8850 (pager 479)
P.O. Box 2078
Carlsbad, NM 88221
None of Us is as Smart
as ALL of Us !!!
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:57:09 -0500
From: "Jim Hardeman" <Jim_Hardeman@MAIL.DNR.STATE.GA.US>
Subject: Re: Dirty bomb predictions
John -
Sounds like you're talking about our beloved RSI event here in Decatur, GA. Yeah, I'd have to concur that not all the Cs is gonna just "wash away" after the first rain. The Cs IS very water soluble, but anything ... and I emphasize ANYTHING ... that's the least bit porous, will wind up getting Cs contamination deeply embedded within it ... roadways, building surfaces, etc. The unfortunate thing is (as you remember) that once the Cs-contaminated water gets in the pores, and then perhaps evaporates, it's DAMN DIFFICULT to get the Cs back out. As you might remember, we spent YEARS looking at absorption / desorbtion of cesium choride between contaminated water and stainless steel.
Most of the environmental models that we use related to major radionuclide releases include some "guess" as to weathering half-times, but that's the best characterization of them. The Russians probably have as much experience as anyone regarding the behavior of cesium in the environment ... and trust me, 15 years after Chernobyl, it's still there.
Also, our nice clay soils here in Georgia will provide for some amount of absorption.
I have a little trouble with the cobalt scenario ... it's hard for me to see how even explosive dispersal is going to make inhalable particles out of cobalt metal. Seems to me that the cobalt scenario is a direct radiation and contamination scenario only ... not an inhalation scenario. Ingestion perhaps, but not inhalation.
Jim Hardeman, Manager
Environmental Radiation Program
Georgia Environmental Protection Division
4244 International Parkway, Suite 114
Atlanta, GA 30354
(404) 362-2675
Fax: (404) 362-2653
E-mail: Jim_Hardeman@mail.dnr.state.ga.us
>>> <AndrewsJP@AOL.COM> 3/7/2002 15:22:12 >>>
In a message dated 3/7/02 11:34:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, blc+@PITT.EDU
writes:
>
>
>
> The cesium would be mostly washed away by the first rain, going
> down sewers. A little work with hoses along with radiation detection
> meters would be even more efficient. On soil, as in parks, it could be
> covered with dirt, but that would be a very small part of the exposure.
>
> Bernard L. Cohen
>
Maybe, maybe not. The one I cleaned up after was a spill of the material to
be placed into a sealed source. It got blown around by the air conditioning
and thourouly contaminated the building containing the operation. Years
later, when I got involved, some of the Cs-137 was deeply imbeded in the
concrete where the grains of CsCl(?) were overlooked. Decontamination
required drilling or coring to remove the spots. All in all, there was no
risk to the occasional occupants. The material was really fixed in place. I
guess the issue with sealed sources in dirty bombs is that the material will
be dispersed in the existing form and not necessarily pulverized into
breathable sized fractions. A typical Cs-137 Hastalloy C single encapsulated
source may even survive the explosion. The same is true for bare cobalt
rods. The hype on NPR this morning started out OK, then went downhill from
there.
John Andrews
Knoxville, Tennessee
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 11:10:28 -0500
From: William V Lipton <liptonw@DTEENERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: BetaData Format
Most of the information you need is probably included in the paper, "A Method
for Adding Nuclides to VARSKIN and QUINCE Skin Dose Calculation Software,"
Radiation Protection Management, November/December 1987.
The opinions expressed are strictly mine.
It's not about dose, it's about trust.
Curies forever.
Bill Lipton
liptonw@dteenergy.com
"Goff, Tom" wrote:
> Does anyone have the method to decode the beta spectrum in the VARSKIN
> BetaData file?
>
> We are looking for a way to determine the relative abundance of each energy
> range from the record format.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom Goff
> WIPP ALARA Coordinator
> WIPP Integrated Waste Operations
> (505) 234-8861
> (fax) 885-4562
> e-mail Tom.Goff@WIPP.ws
> page (505) 234-8850 (pager 479)
> P.O. Box 2078
> Carlsbad, NM 88221
> None of Us is as Smart
> as ALL of Us !!!
>
> ************************************************************************
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> send an e-mail to Majordomo@list.vanderbilt.edu Put the text "unsubscribe
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 11:14:20 -0500
From: William V Lipton <liptonw@DTEENERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Because when the NV resident and PA resident sell their houses to each other
for the big migration, the NV resident won't get as much because of the
nuclear dump in his backyard.
The opinions expressed are strictly mine.
It's not about dose, it's about trust.
Curies forever.
Bill Lipton
liptonw@dteenergy.com
BERNARD L COHEN wrote:
> NIMBY seems to be a dominant issue for Nevada with regard to Yucca
> Mountain Repository. They fear that residents living there thousands of
> years from now will be subjected to leakage of radioactivity.
> Does anyone consider the question: what is the probability for the
> progeny of a present Nevada resident living in Nevada 5000 years from
> now?and what is the probability for the progeny of a present Pennsylvania
> resident living in Nevada 5000 years from now? Judging by history, or
> judging by current migration trends, these two probabilities would both be
> very small and approximately the same. How, then, can Nevadans say it is
> unjust for waste generated in the East to be buried in Nevada?
>
> Bernard L. Cohen
> Physics Dept.
> University of Pittsburgh
> Pittsburgh, PA 15260
> Tel: (412)624-9245
> Fax: (412)624-9163
> e-mail: blc@pitt.edu
>
> ************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:59:47 -0500
From: "dkosloff1" <dkosloff1@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Anybody with a 90-mile long backyard in Las Vegas is going to get enough for
the sale of her house. There is no evidence that anything 90 miles away is
going to affect the price of someone's house.
Here in Perry, people are paying ever-incresing amounts for houses being
sold within two to eight miles of fresh spent fuel stored above ground next
to an operating nuclear power plant. Property values are higher than they
are further away from the spent fuel.
Don Kosloff dkosloff1@msn.com
2910 Main Street, Perry OH 44081
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "William V Lipton" <liptonw@DTEENERGY.COM>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
> Because when the NV resident and PA resident sell their houses to each
other
> for the big migration, the NV resident won't get as much because of the
> nuclear dump in his backyard.
>
> The opinions expressed are strictly mine.
> It's not about dose, it's about trust.
> Curies forever.
>
> Bill Lipton
> liptonw@dteenergy.com
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 12:04:46 -0500
From: "Levi, Michael" <mlevi@fas.org>
Subject: Dirty Bomb Predictions
As the researcher behind Henry Kelly's dirty bomb testimony, I'd like to
clear up some confusion that's been passing on this list:
1) We didn't give weather parameters, nor did we give the technical
construction of the bomb, for security reasons, as directed by the
committee. Our approach was reviewed in private by physicists from
Princeton, CalTech, Columbia, Council on Foreign Relations, and the
Senate Foreign relations committee. It was also reviewed by a member of
the National Academy of Sciences Radiological Weapon study. They all
found our assumptions and conclusions to be highly plausible.
2) For cesium and cobalt, and other gamma emitters, the % of inhalable
particles is largely irrelevant. In fact, we assume 0% respirable.
3) Our scenarios don't involve a very large dose per year. We were
asked by the committee to see when the 1E-4 EPA threshold would be
violated -- this doesn't take much of a dose.
4) The 4E-5/rem cancer risk includes inhalation.
5) The lost cesium in North Carolina was an event that was communicated
to us by the Foreign Relations Committee (it was in fact discovered by
the staff of Jesse Helm (R-NC)). The information was released publicly
by Sen. Biden (D-DW) at the start of the hearing.
6) "Small Medical Gauge" was a misstatement, but doesn't affect the
conclusions. The source size was considerably bigger than 1 mCi, but,
as I mentioned earlier, came from the Foreign Relations committee,
certainly a credible source.
7) You must all know that it's pretty easy to shield a Co-60 rod enough
to transport it for several hours. When it comes to working directly
with it, one would expect several workers to rotate in shifts. We never
said this was easy, just that it's a plausible, though challenging,
scenario.
8) Cs-137 binds to asphalt and concrete. Scandinavian cities
contaminated by Cs-137 from Chernobyl have roughly the same
contamination level as ten years ago due to this phenomenon. Any old
book on nuclear war fallout will explain the chemistry of this. Of
course there are chemicals that remove the Cs, but they have the
downside of converting it into a form that is easily absorbed by the
gastrointestinal system, making contaminated water a much greater
problem.
9) The plume models are poor at short distances (~explosion radius),
but quite good (factor of 5 SD) at longer distances.
10) Bare cobalt rods would of course survive an explosion. The
knowledge of how to aerosolize the material is out there, as confirmed
by many we spoke with.
11) Agreed, the NPR story the the best of the lot, but in general the
reporting was ok. (The Reuters piece was also quite good.)
12) Re the NIH poster -- 1 Ci/m^2 is a totally unrealistic -- even the
chernobly closed zone was 40 microcuries/m^2 Cs-137.
I look forward to further comments and discussion on the report.
Cheers,
Michael Levi
Director, Strategic Security Project
Federation of American Scientists
1717 K St. NW
Washington DC 20036
mlevi@fas.org
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:26:15 EST
From: RuthWeiner@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
- --part1_72.18df19a3.29ba5c47_boundary
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I am not questioning that post-traumatic stress syndrome exists. However,
actually being mugged and being in a battle in a war is far, far more
frightening and stressful than hearing about TMI on the radio or reading it
in the newspaper and never noticing any physical health consequence at all.
Even if the person fears cancer, the FEAR is likely to fade with the passage
of time. And what would trigger post-traumatic stress in someone who lived
in Harrisburg when TMI happened? A radio program? A newspaper?
I just do not think one can compare having lived in Harrisburg, PA, or even
in the Chernobyl fallout, AND HAVING SUFFERED NO PHYSICAL HEALTH EFFECT AT
ALL, with shell-shock, or battle stress, or being a crime victim.
Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
ruthweiner@aol.com
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2><B>I am not questioning that post-traumatic stress syndrome exists. However, actually being mugged and being in a battle in a war is far, far more frightening and stressful than hearing about TMI on the radio or reading it in the newspaper and never noticing any physical health consequence at all. Even if the person fears cancer, the FEAR is likely to fade with the passage of time. And what would trigger post-traumatic stress in someone who lived in Harrisburg when TMI happened? A radio program? A newspaper?
<BR>
<BR>I just do not think one can compare having lived in Harrisburg, PA, or even in the Chernobyl fallout, AND HAVING SUFFERED NO PHYSICAL HEALTH EFFECT AT ALL, with shell-shock, or battle stress, or being a crime victim.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#008000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
<BR>ruthweiner@aol.com</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_72.18df19a3.29ba5c47_boundary--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:04:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Ruth Sponsler <jk5554@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dirty Bomb Predictions (ugh!)
Terrorists rely on fear to attack a population.
Unfortunately, it appears to me that a lot of people
are approaching psychology in precisely the wrong way.
The USA Today and MSNBC pieces that imply deaths from
radiation levels below variations in natural
background (e.g. 30 mrem/year) create fear of
radiation. I don't like testing nuclear bombs any
more than anyone else did. That is not the issue.
The damage has been done e.g. its 'water under the
bridge' now, as these releases occurred in the 1950s
and early 1960s. The issue is that the levels subject
to discussion in the news media pieces are smaller
than the differences in background between
Colorado/New Mexico etc. and, say Delaware or
Louisiana/Mississippi. It's quite an extrapolation
to imply cancer deaths from 30 mrem/year when multiple
occupational studies of up to ~5,000 mrem/year don't
find increased cancer mortality (Boice et al. 1995,
Cardis et al. 1995, Matanoski 1991, Smith and Douglas
1986, Sont et al. 1991) and when cancer rates are
lower in high natural background areas than in low
background areas (Jagger 1998).
Based on my reading of a number of epidemiological
studies of persons exposed to up to 5,000 mrem/year,
there are few hazards at this level. [In fact
benefits]. Based on reading of epidemiological
studies of radiologists who worked before occupational
standards were set at 5,000 mrem/y (~5 cSv/y), the
dangers from radiation were most prominent before
1920, when radiologists were frequently [wantonly]
overexposed to amounts > 1 Sv/year of radiation.
Radiologists working after 1955 show no harm at all
from their occupational exposures. The data for
radiologists between 1920 and 1955 is equivocal -
British radiologists (Berrington et al. 2001) showed
little harm from exposures during this period whereas
there were somewhat increased risks to American
radiologists especially before 1940 (Matanoski et al.
1975). Exposures between 1920 and 1940 to
radiologists were somewhere probably more than 15,000
mrem/year (~15 cSv/year) up to probably at least 1
Sv/year.
If we want to fight terrorism, we need to honestly
assess hazards from the overall data available, rather
than to assume the 'worst' set of numbers possible.
Terrorists rely on fear to accomplish their goals of
creating disarray in a society.
This is just my personal opinion here, but I think
that the best way to fight terrorism of the possible
'dirty bomb' type is to educate the public about
things like natural background radiation and
occupational exposures (and the results of
occupational exposure).
The worst way to fight terrorism is to instill fear in
the public of levels of radiation that are less than
natural background or contemporary occupational
exposures. This just plays into the hands of a
potential terrorist.
Someone else noted that some people evacuated after
Chernobyl lived in places where the release added up
to less than natural background. This makes no sense
whatsoever. The psychological consequences of this
sort of decision are almost certainly serious and must
be taken into account in risk assessments.
Terrorism, at its root, is psychological warfare.
Psychological warfare accomplishes its goals much more
easily with a population that is thinking irrationally
and fearfully, than an educated population who know
how to make rational decisions.
Just my humble opinion, but at least with some support
from actual studies rather than extrapolations from
'models.'
~Ruth 2 aka Ruth Sponsler
============================
Berrington A., S.C. Darby, H.A. Weiss, and R. Doll.
2001. 100 years of observation on British
radiologists: mortality from cancer and other causes
1897-1997. Br. J. Radiol. 74(882):507-519. Online at
http://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/content/full/74/882/507
Boice JD Jr, Mandel JS, Doody MM. 1995. Breast
cancer among radiologic technologists. JAMA. Aug
2;274(5):394-401.
Cardis E, Gilbert ES, Carpenter L, Howe G, Kato I,
Armstrong BK, Beral V, Cowper G, Douglas A, Fix J, et
al. 1995. Effects of low doses and low dose rates of
external ionizing radiation: cancer mortality among
nuclear industry workers in three countries. Radiat
Res. May;142(2):117-132.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7724726&dopt=Abstract
Jagger, J. 1998. Natural background radiation and
cancer death in Rocky Mountain States and Gulf Coast
States. Health Phys. 75(4):428-430.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9753369&dopt=Abstract
Matanoski G: 1991. Health effects of low-level
radiation in shipyard workers final report. 471 pp.
Baltimore, MD, DOE DE-AC02-79 EV10095. National
Technical Information Service, Springfield, Virginia.
Matanoski G.M., R. Seltser, P.E. Sartwell, E.L.
Diamond, Elliott EA. 1975. The current mortality
rates of radiologists and other physician specialists:
deaths from all causes and from cancer. Am. J.
Epidemiol. 101(3):188-198.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1115058&dopt=Abstract
Smith, P.G., and A.J. Douglas. 1986. Mortality of
workers at the Sellafield plant of British Nuclear
Fuels. Br. Med. J. (Clin. Res. Ed.).
293(6551):845-854.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3094683&dopt=Abstract
Sont WN, Zielinski JM, Ashmore JP, Jiang H, Krewski D,
Fair ME, Band PR, Letourneau EG. 2001. First
analysis of cancer incidence and occupational
radiation exposure based on the National Dose Registry
of Canada. Am J Epidemiol. 153(4):309-318.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11207146&dopt=Abstract
============================
> 3) Our scenarios don't involve a very large dose
> per year. We were
> asked by the committee to see when the 1E-4 EPA
> threshold would be
> violated -- this doesn't take much of a dose.
> 12) Re the NIH poster -- 1 Ci/m^2 is a totally
> unrealistic -- even the
> chernobly closed zone was 40 microcuries/m^2 Cs-137.
> I look forward to further comments and discussion on
> the report.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael Levi
> Director, Strategic Security Project
> Federation of American Scientists
> 1717 K St. NW
> Washington DC 20036
> mlevi@fas.org
__________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 11:12:26 -0800
From: hflong@postoffice.pacbell.net
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
- --Boundary_(ID_nBJkuM3+5mFu/pRk8LKc+g)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Ruth,
I believe that any line between fear and post-traumatic stress is
arbitrary.
However, much can be done about fear. The best is to remove from source,
like the work of your friend. Next is logical analysis that one has done
everything possible to remove the cause, like the best treatment,
anesthesiologist for your hip surgery, etc.
Next is faith in the reassurances of a friend (hopefully like your
personal physician) that you are being taken care of and don't need to
stay tense and charged with "fight or flight" adrenalin to protect
yourself.
At Chernobyl and with dirty bombs, HPs could be very therapeutic. Like
the personal physician, HPs can remove fear of the unknown, especially
when armed, not only with ion chambers, but also with knowledge. Even
with N-bombs most not killed by blast or burn actually lived longer and
had less cancer -as did nuclear shipyard workers. You-all are the best,
to prevent post traumatic stress syndrome.
Howard Long MD
RuthWeiner@AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov writes:
>
>
>
>> While there were no deaths following the accident phase, people may
>> have
>> been traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to be
>> recognized as
>> an illness and treated.
>
> Here is a real question, especially for any medical doctors out there:
>
> What differentiates fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear
> become "trauma?" Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my
> Ph. D. oral prelim (don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate
> physical symptoms), my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye
> surgery, sailing in a storm. I was scared enough to be physically
> ill, but I certainly didn't suffer POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers
> on a battlefield cope with fear all the time, but all of them do not
> suffer post-traumatic stress. Women in labor are frightened. Anyone
> who has been mugged has known fear.
>
>
> Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
> ruthweiner@aol.com
- --Boundary_(ID_nBJkuM3+5mFu/pRk8LKc+g)
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Ruth,
<br>I believe that any line between fear and post-traumatic stress is arbitrary.
<p>However, much can be done about fear. The best is to remove from source,
like the work of your friend. Next is logical analysis that one has done
everything possible to remove the cause, like the best treatment, anesthesiologist
for your hip surgery, etc.
<br>Next is faith in the reassurances of a friend (hopefully like your
personal physician) that you are being taken care of and don't need to
stay tense and charged with "fight or flight" adrenalin to protect yourself.
<p>At Chernobyl and with dirty bombs, HPs could be very therapeutic.
Like the personal physician, HPs can remove fear of the unknown,
especially when armed, not only with ion chambers, but also with knowledge.
Even with N-bombs most not killed by blast or burn actually lived longer
and had less cancer -as did nuclear shipyard workers. You-all are
the best, to prevent post traumatic stress syndrome.
<p>Howard Long MD
<p>RuthWeiner@AOL.COM wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><b><font face="arial,helvetica"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>In
a message dated 3/7/02 4:12:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov
writes:</font></font></font></b>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>While
there were no deaths following the accident phase, people may have</font></font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>been
traumatized by fear. Post traumatic stress needs to be recognized
as</font></font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>an
illness and treated.</font></font></font></blockquote>
<b><font face="Arial"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>Here is a real
question, especially for any medical doctors out there:</font></font></font></b>
<p><b><font face="Arial"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>What differentiates
fear from post-traumatic stress? When does fear become "trauma?"
Some scary things I have done: mountain climbing, my Ph. D. oral prelim
(don't laugh. I was so scared I had real immediate physical symptoms),
my first hip replacement, my daughter's eye surgery, sailing in a storm.
I was scared enough to be physically ill, but I certainly didn't suffer
POST-traumatic stress. Soldiers on a battlefield cope with fear all
the time, but all of them do not suffer post-traumatic stress. Women
in labor are frightened. Anyone who has been mugged has known fear.</font></font></font></b>
<br>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>Ruth Weiner,
Ph. D.</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font color="#000080"><font size=-1>ruthweiner@aol.com</font></font></font></blockquote>
</html>
- --Boundary_(ID_nBJkuM3+5mFu/pRk8LKc+g)--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:37:36 -0500
From: "Jacobus, John (OD/ORS)" <jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov>
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
Ruth,
Fear is like pain. It is subjective. And the question is how much does
interfere with your life. If fear of radiation is severely interfering with
your life, then the condition should be recognized as a medical disease and
be treated. If you respond to a poll and say the you are afraid of
radiation, that is something else. For the people around Chernobyl, there
may be a lot of problems from which the people suffer. Poverty, alcoholism,
malnutrition, unemployment, and maybe even post traumatic stress associated
with the accident. They should be given the support they need to move on
with their lives. No matter what the problem, if they get support they may
get better.
And you are quite right. I think that most of the people around TMI do not
suffer the same anguish. I do not think they suffered the same trauma.
Again, I think they fear radiation and TMI when they are asked about it.
Ted Rockwell alluded to this phenomenon. Unfortunately, I think some in
this country look for things to worry about. Look at all of the
pharmaceutical advertisements on television.
Again, get a grid on it!
- -- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
3050 Traymore Lane
Bowie, MD 20715-2024
E-mail: jenday1@email.msn.com (H)
- -----Original Message-----
From: RuthWeiner@aol.com [mailto:RuthWeiner@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 1:26 PM
To: Jacobus, John (OD/ORS); radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
I am not questioning that post-traumatic stress syndrome exists. However,
actually being mugged and being in a battle in a war is far, far more
frightening and stressful than hearing about TMI on the radio or reading it
in the newspaper and never noticing any physical health consequence at all.
Even if the person fears cancer, the FEAR is likely to fade with the passage
of time. And what would trigger post-traumatic stress in someone who lived
in Harrisburg when TMI happened? A radio program? A newspaper?
I just do not think one can compare having lived in Harrisburg, PA, or even
in the Chernobyl fallout, AND HAVING SUFFERED NO PHYSICAL HEALTH EFFECT AT
ALL, with shell-shock, or battle stress, or being a crime victim.
Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.
ruthweiner@aol.com
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:12:32 -0600
From: "Field, R. William" <bill-field@UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: PTSD
<html>
<font size=3>Ruth,<br><br>
You do not need to actually be injured "physically" to
experience PTSD. Experiences that have a significant
</font><font size=3 color="#800000">threat</font><font size=3> of bodily
harm or death to a person or a loved one can trigger PTSD. As the
threat becomes more severe to a person, the greater the chance of them
developing PTSD. To many people around TMI, the
</font><font size=3 color="#800000">perceived</font><font size=3> threat
(real or not in others' minds) was very real them.<br><br>
Bill Field<br><br>
At 01:26 PM 3/8/2002 -0500, RuthWeiner@aol.com wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2 color="#000080"><b>I
am not questioning that post-traumatic stress syndrome exists.
However, actually being mugged and being in a battle in a war is far, far
more frightening and stressful than hearing about TMI on the radio or
reading it in the newspaper and never noticing any physical health
consequence at all. Even if the person fears cancer, the FEAR is
likely to fade with the passage of time. And what would trigger
post-traumatic stress in someone who lived in Harrisburg when TMI
happened? A radio program? A newspaper?
<br><br>
I just do not think one can compare having lived in Harrisburg, PA, or
even in the Chernobyl fallout, AND HAVING SUFFERED NO PHYSICAL HEALTH
EFFECT AT ALL, with shell-shock, or battle stress, or being a crime
victim. <br>
</b></font><font size=2 color="#008000">Ruth Weiner, Ph. D. <br>
ruthweiner@aol.com</font><font face="arial" size=3>
</font></blockquote><br>
</html>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:14:28 -0500
From: "Jacobus, John (OD/ORS)" <jacobusj@ors.od.nih.gov>
Subject: RE: Dirty Bomb Predictions
Michael,
My purpose of my posting was show that with a significant amount of
contamination in a small area, the dose rates are not going to be lethal for
those responding to the incident and even those who would be involved with
the clean up. I believe that we should present the information as doses
that can cause significant acute effects. I pose that my example would
involve a radiographers source that was exploded inside the trunk of a car
parked on the street. The spread of radiation was confined to the immediate
area. The terrorists were not sophisticated to design a bomb that would
develop a bomb that would produce "a mist of fine particles." (Hey, they
thought they were buying plutonium.)
Now, who thinks my scenario is worst than the FAS one?
- -- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
3050 Traymore Lane
Bowie, MD 20715-2024
E-mail: jenday1@email.msn.com (H)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Levi, Michael [mailto:mlevi@fas.org]
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 12:05 PM
To: radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Dirty Bomb Predictions
. . .
12) Re the NIH poster -- 1 Ci/m^2 is a totally unrealistic -- even the
chernobly closed zone was 40 microcuries/m^2 Cs-137.
. . .
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Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 15:28:17 -0500
From: William V Lipton <liptonw@DTEENERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
Perception is reality; just deal with it.
The opinions expressed are strictly mine.
It's not about dose, it's about trust.
Curies forever.
Bill Lipton
liptonw@dteenergy.com
dkosloff1 wrote:
> Anybody with a 90-mile long backyard in Las Vegas is going to get enough for
> the sale of her house. There is no evidence that anything 90 miles away is
> going to affect the price of someone's house.
>
> Here in Perry, people are paying ever-incresing amounts for houses being
> sold within two to eight miles of fresh spent fuel stored above ground next
> to an operating nuclear power plant. Property values are higher than they
> are further away from the spent fuel.
>
> Don Kosloff dkosloff1@msn.com
> 2910 Main Street, Perry OH 44081
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William V Lipton" <liptonw@DTEENERGY.COM>
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
>
> > Because when the NV resident and PA resident sell their houses to each
> other
> > for the big migration, the NV resident won't get as much because of the
> > nuclear dump in his backyard.
> >
> > The opinions expressed are strictly mine.
> > It's not about dose, it's about trust.
> > Curies forever.
> >
> > Bill Lipton
> > liptonw@dteenergy.com
>
> ************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:42:30 -0500
From: "dkosloff1" <dkosloff1@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1C6B7.DB849AA0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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If a radiation stigma is attached to Las Vegas it will have been =
attached by the people of Nevada. There is no evidence that a radiation =
stigma self-attaches. If it did, it would already be attached to Las =
Vegas because of the weapons testing facility. There are many places =
near nuclear facilities with no attached radiation stigma.
For example, the city of Port Clinton, Ohio is now a tourist town. =
Swimming, boating and fishing in Lake Erie are the main attractions. =
>From the city beach and most of the tourist condominiums, one can see =
the cooling tower of the Davis-Besse Nuclear Power Plant. The cooling =
tower is used as a landmark for fishing boats. Davis-Besse has been =
operating since 1977 and has all its spent fuel stored above ground =
about 10 miles from Port Clinton. The tourist industry has grown =
substantially there since 1977, even without the lure of gambling. All =
of the condominiums and several motels have been built since then. =
There has even been a new condominium abd marina complex built about one =
mile from the plant.
A similar situation exists at the Treasure Island casino, hotel and =
marina built about one mile from the Prairie Island dry cask spent fuel =
facility in Minnesota.
Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm are much closer to operating nuclear =
power plants and spent fuel then 90 miles.
Don Kosloff dkosloff1@msn.com
2910 Main St. PERRY OH 44081
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bflood47@cs.com=20
To: dkosloff1@email.msn.com=20
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: NIMBY for Nevada residents
I think the real risk for southern Nevada is economic. Anything to do =
with radiation or nuclear power has stigma attached to it. Las Vegas is =
a purely tourist town, no agriculture, no manufacturing, nothing but =
tourism, and people can vacation anywhere. If that radiation stigma =
becomes associated with Las Vegas, it could be truly ruinous for the =
local economy here. And whichever political party is viewed as =
responsible to approving and starting Yucca Mtn should expect the people =
of Nevada to make the rest of the country aware of who did this to them. =
Economic ruin is far from certain - it's all a matter of image and =
publicity.=20
Bob Flood=20
Las Vegas=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1C6B7.DB849AA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If a radiation stigma is attached to Las Vegas it =
will have=20
been attached by the people of Nevada. There is no evidence that a =
radiation stigma self-attaches. If it did, it would already be =
attached to=20
Las Vegas because of the weapons testing facility. There are many =
places=20
near nuclear facilities with no attached radiation stigma.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>For example, the city of Port Clinton, Ohio =
is now a=20
tourist town. Swimming, boating and fishing in Lake Erie are =
the main=20
attractions. From the city beach and most of the tourist =
condominiums, one=20
can see the cooling tower of the Davis-Besse Nuclear Power Plant. =
The=20
cooling tower is used as a landmark for fishing boats. =20
Davis-Besse has been operating since 1977 and has all its spent =
fuel stored=20
above ground about 10 miles from Port Clinton. The tourist =
industry has=20
grown substantially there since 1977, even without the lure of =
gambling. =20
All of the condominiums and several motels have been built since=20
then. There has even been a new condominium abd marina complex =
built about=20
one mile from the plant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A similar situation exists at the Treasure Island =
casino,=20
hotel and marina built about one mile from the Prairie Island dry cask =
spent=20
fuel facility in Minnesota.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm =
are much=20
closer to operating nuclear power plants and spent fuel then 90=20
miles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don Kosloff <A=20
href=3D"mailto:dkosloff1@msn.com";>dkosloff1@msn.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2910 Main St. PERRY OH 44081</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DBflood47@cs.com =
href=3D"mailto:Bflood47@cs.com";>Bflood47@cs.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddkosloff1@email.msn.com=20
href=3D"mailto:dkosloff1@email.msn.com";>dkosloff1@email.msn.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 08, 2002 =
2:53=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: NIMBY for Nevada=20
residents</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"FIXED">I think the real risk for southern Nevada is =
economic.=20
Anything to do with radiation or nuclear power has stigma =
attached to=20
it. Las Vegas is a purely tourist town, no agriculture, no=20
manufacturing, nothing but tourism, and people can vacation anywhere. =
If=20
that radiation stigma becomes associated with Las Vegas, it could be =
truly=20
ruinous for the local economy here. And whichever political =
party is=20
viewed as responsible to approving and starting Yucca Mtn should =
expect the=20
people of Nevada to make the rest of the country aware of who did this =
to=20
them. <BR><BR>Economic ruin is far from certain - it's all a matter of =
image=20
and publicity. <BR><BR>Bob Flood <BR>Las Vegas=20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1C6B7.DB849AA0--
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