[ RadSafe ] Hospital emergency response and RDD waste management

Thu Mar 3 00:13:56 CET 2005

Peter

Put it down the sanitary sewer *please*, not the storm drains, unless it's some kind of ultimate extremity.  For one thing, it's not legal to dispose of hazmat (I'm using the term loosely) in the storm sewers (one can imagine your finding yourself with an EPA citation, on top of everything else).  Sanitary sewerage is pretty well controlled and monitored.  It shouldn't be difficult to figure out how much is there, even at the treatment plant.  The storm drains can potentially overflow anywhere upstream of the final discharge point.

As an aside, and FYI, Seattle (or maybe King County), about ten years ago, seriously contemplated requiring hospitals to inform them, prior to a nuc med pt's flushing of the toilet.  I believe that they received some good counselling from the State DOH on the issue.

Cheers
cja

P.S.  In some countries, e.g. Canada, I think, they are required to hold for decay the effluent from, e.g., I-131 inpatients.  Our regulatory burden in the USA is not always as onerous as it seems.

I would run it
>right into the sewer or storm drain, counting on massive dilution to render
>it innocuous.  What else can you do really, when you think about it.  Most
>hospitals are not going to have the liquid storage capacity.  One of the VA
>hospitals put in about a 2000 gallon (7600 l) holding tank, that would be
>good for about 114 patients/deconees.

>
>
>Any opinions in this e-mail are solely those of the author, and are not
>represented as those of the VA Eastern Colorado HCS, the Dept. of Veterans
>Affairs, or the US Government.
>
>Peter G. Vernig, Radiation Safety Officer, MS-115, VA Eastern Colorado
>Health Care System, 1055 Clermont St. Denver, CO 80220,
>peter.vernig at med.va.gov, Phone= 303.399.8020 x2447; Fax = 303.393.5026,
>alternate fax, 303.393.5248
>
>"...whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is
>admirable, if anything is found to be excellent or praiseworthy, let your
>mind dwell on these things."
>
>Paul of Tarsus
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl]On
>Behalf Of Bradt, Clayton
>Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:27 PM
>To: Radsafe (radsafe at radlab.nl)
>Subject: FW: [ RadSafe ] Hospital emergency response and RDD waste
>managem ent
>
>
>
>
>Any realistic solution to the problem of rad waste following an RDD event
>would be so hateful to the eco-crazies that it would be impossible for any
>government agency to ever make such a plan public before the fact.  I am
>unaware of anyone actually working on such a plan.  I suspect that any
>decisions on what to do about rad waste will be made ad hoc during the
>crisis when there will be no time for opponents to get organized against
>them.
>
>Clayton J. Bradt, CHP
>Principal Radiophysicist
>NYS Dept. of Labor
>phone: (518) 457 1202
>fax:     (518) 485 7406
>e-mail: clayton.bradt at labor.state.ny.us
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Lukban [mailto:ALukban at chpnet.org] 
>Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 5:20 PM
>To: radsafe at radlab.nl
>Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hospital emergency response and RDD waste management
>
>
>I am the RSO in a hospital in New York City. Our hospital Emergency
>Management Committee has been charged with planning a procedure of
>response to emergency situations associated with radiation dispersal
>devices (RDD's or "dirty bombs".) It is rumored that the next round of
>city-wide table-top exercises for emergency preparedness are to involve
>RDD scenarios. There are many things invloved with such a scenario which
>range from detection (portal monitors), isotope identification (handheld
>MCA), determination of internal decontamination (swab nostrils and mouth
>and count), actual decontamination (undress, shower), calculation of
>scheduled quantities in sewage from mass showering (close my eyes),
>treatment (should be teh doc's job), dose calculations (call REAC/TS)
>and... waste management (?).
>
>I can almost deal with all the first steps but find myself bothered by
>"waste management". I suppose it is not "waste" but, rather, "evidence"
>if it were involved with an act of terrorism. What could be used for an
>RDD? By nature of it being "dispersed" to cause maximum panic, it is
>also more spread out and less concentrated when concerns about
>contamination are brought up. This is different then from a single
>source planted in one place and resulting in plain ol' external exposure
>because the hospital would not be dealing with radiaiton contaminated
>patients and produce radiation "waste" that I would ten have to deal
>with.
>
>Liquid RAM would likely be stolen from a medical purpose (likely imaging
>and not oncology) and is likely the the easiest to disperse but is also
>the shortest lived. Longer lived, higher specific activity material have
>half-lives > 65 days and usually is from a solid form and would have to
>be crushed for dispersal if the mode of dispersal is not via explosion.
>It is interesting to note that regulations prevent us from doing
>decay-in-storage for materials with half-lives >65 days. I would be
>requird to return it to the "vendor" - "Hello Mr Terrorist, here's your
>stuff back." No matter. Either way, both short lived and long lived RAM
>"waste" now present at the hospital resulting from decon, emesis, feces,
>etc. would not have been "purchased according to our license" and the
>institution should not be responsible for storing or disposing it. We
>can follow due diligence in preparing for proper radiation safety
>procedure to contain and isolate the stuff, but what is the limit of
>preparation? Should we prepare for storing clothing contaminated with
>therapeutic amounts of powdered Co-60? How many Pb lined steel drums is
>considered OK? What government entity will say that the "foreign RAM of
>extramural origin" is "their problem" and will pick it up? Should I be
>pursuing a memo of understanding with some magically appropriate
>government entity? Real estate is big problem in NYC and there is no
>"spare parking lot" that can be used to contain RAM in an emergency
>scenario.
>
>The more I think about it, the more I think that the conclusion is that
>"radioactive waste" from an RDD emergency is NOT the hospital's problem
>in the long term. However, what is considered the short term (when will
>it no longer be my problem because someone will remove it) and who is
>going to be responsible for it (who will remove it)?
>
>Sorry for the venting...
>
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