[ RadSafe ] Re: Radioactive Material Stolen While Man In DonutShop

Thu Mar 10 19:38:20 CET 2005

Larry *

Good question, and I'm not sure that it has a simple answer. I will tell you that NRC and the Agreement States are putting a lot more emphasis these days on security of "significant" radioactive materials sources ... with the goal being to keep them from being lost or stolen in the first place. I can't define significant (although it apparently goes all the way down to portable guages, such as moisture/density gauges) ... and I can't give you the details of the emphasis, as a) I'm not directly involved in the licensing end, and b) the information is considered safeguards information. 

The problem, as I see it, is that (as we all know) radioactive materials are everywhere, and the more you look, the more you're going to find. We've all seen instances of perfectly innocent individuals who just happen to have been the subject of a medical procedure involving radiopharmaceuticals, who all of sudden find themselves trying to explain to federal / state / local law enforcement authorities that they're not terrorists. I see where the new DHS Secretary is proposing the development of "newer and better" (my term, not his) radiation detection equipment. I think this is a great idea, but I don't know that anybody will ever be able to devise an instrument that is capable of distinguishing between legitimate and illicit uses of radioactive materials ... or will be able to tell you when radioactive materials are no longer under the control of their rightful owners / users.

I guess where I'm coming from is that we're handling this pretty much like criminal investigators handle their cases ... you don't see homicide detectives crusing the streets, looking to see if anybody is trying to kill somebody else. Instead, they respond to homicides as they are reported to them. We respond to incidents of lost or stolen radioactive materials (or for that matter, traffic accidents involving vehicles carrying radioactive materials, etc.) as they occur and are reported to us, but we don't have the resources to make essentially random (or even not-so-random) searches for radioactive materials that may not be in the possession of their rightful owners / users. 

Of course, the big issue here is resources ... what resources are available (including funding) and how best to apply those resources. 

Speaking just for myself (and not for the entire regulatory community) we're open to anything that will decrease the probability of radioactive materials getting into "the wrong hands", however that may be defined. But, we're also tied to our statutory authorities and the amounts and sources of funding that we receive. We'll do whatever our elected officials tell us to do ... and give us the money to do (assuming that it's legal and moral, of course! <grin>

I think I'm up to $0.04 for the day ...

Jim Hardeman, Manager
Environmental Radiation Program
Environmental Protection Division
Georgia Department of Natural Resources
4220 International Parkway, Suite 100
Atlanta, GA 30354
(404) 362-2675
Fax: (404) 362-2653
E-mail: Jim_Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us

>>> "Boing, Lawrence E." <lboing at anl.gov> 3/10/2005 12:52:12 >>>

By taking this approach though - in todays political environment - are
we setting ourselves up to take a 'hit' - for not tracking down these
items - what if this leads to another 'rad source crisis' like in
Thailand, Estonia, Brazil?  I guess it comes down to how much effort are
the regulators allowed or do they need to put into tracking these
sources down versus the risk they are perceived as posing to the public
in general if they end u pin the wrong hands (not necessarily terrorist
either - I am ignoring that here) ???  I am not pinging anyone hereeither in the regulator community - you all do a lot with a little in
many if not most cases.

Lawrence E. Boing
Argonne National Laboratory
9700 South Cass Avenue
Argonne, IL  60439

P-630.252.6729
F-630.252.7577
lboing at anl.gov
http://www.td.anl.gov/D&D/
http://www.orau.gov/ddsc/

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
Behalf Of Jim Hardeman
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:38 AM
To: Boing, Lawrence E.; TConley at kdhe.state.ks.us;
joseroze at netvision.net.il; radsafe at radlab.nl; MosheK at sviva.gov.il;
crispy_bird at yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Re: Radioactive Material Stolen While Man In
DonutShop

Larry et al.

I don't know how other states (or NRC) do it, but we don't have
sufficient staff to go LOOKING for problems ... we have enough problem
just dealing with the ones that are reported to us. And that's how we
NORMALLY track these things down ... if the devices are specifically
licensed (and in many cases, even if they are generally licensed), the
licensees are required to "immediately" report loss or theft to us. On
the other end, most of the steel mills and recycling facilities that we
deal with have VERY sensitive radiation detection equipment at their
entry portals ... as do most of our landfills. So ... we spend a good
bit of time and effort responding to radiation alarms, most of the time
tracking down naturally occuring radioactive materials (NORM) or medical
radionuclides (Tc-99m and I-131 primarily). Every now and then, though
... they get a hit on a legitimate source. Just recently one of our
general licensees lost a gauge, and we spent a little time working with
them at a scrap metal facility trying (successfully, I might add) to
find it. Sometimes, unfortunately, they don't get found until AFTER
they've been through the facility ... as happened at AmeriSteel in
Baldwin, FL a few years back (<100 mCi Cs-137 source) or here in Georgia
at a facility that melted a zinc-clad DU source.

Bottom line is we don't go investigating ... we only have the resources
to deal with issues that "fall into our laps".

My $0.02 worth ... 

Jim Hardeman, Manager
Environmental Radiation Program
Environmental Protection Division
Georgia Department of Natural Resources
4220 International Parkway, Suite 100
Atlanta, GA 30354
(404) 362-2675
Fax: (404) 362-2653
E-mail: Jim_Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us

>>> "Boing, Lawrence E." <lboing at anl.gov> 3/10/2005 12:18:27 >>>

Can anyone on Radsafe share or shed light on how (if any) law
enforcement or regulatory agencies agencies or both go about tracking
down such devices - hit the local pawn shops, visit scrap yards, what?
Thanks

Lawrence E. Boing
Argonne National Laboratory
9700 South Cass Avenue
Argonne, IL  60439

P-630.252.6729
F-630.252.7577
lboing at anl.gov
http://www.td.anl.gov/D&D/
http://www.orau.gov/ddsc/

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
Behalf Of John Jacobus
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:01 AM
To: MOSHEK; 'Jose Julio Rozental'; TConley at kdhe.state.ks.us;
radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Re: Radioactive Material Stolen While Man In
DonutShop

Well, sometimes if they cannot steal the car, they will take what they
can, like the radio, stereo player, tools, moisture gauge, etc.  It they
think it has value, they may take it.  Obviously if something is chained
or locked down like a gauge or tool box, they will take it.

--- MOSHEK <MosheK at sviva.gov.il> wrote:
> Hello Group,
> 
> In Israel we faced several theft incidents. Most of them were of 
> moisture/density gauges and one of radiography source. There is a 
> clear cut difference between intended  theft of the gauge and the 
> vehicle. When a moisture/density  gauge was taken out of its casing
in

> the car, and the car left untouched - definitely the gauge was the 
> target. When a car containing a gauge was stolen, usually the car was

> the target.
> The problem is that you
> can not be sure about it unless the gauge was found/returned and the

> car not, which may be, or not,  some time in the future.
> Meantime you have to
> assume that the source was the target and be ready to all possible 
> scenarios.
> 
> Moshe Keren
> Ministry of the Environment
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jose Julio Rozental
> [mailto:joseroze at netvision.net.il]
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:52 PM
> To: TConley at kdhe.state.ks.us; radsafe at radlab.nl
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re: Radioactive Material Stolen While Man In

> DonutShop
> 
> 
> The main question is what you have appointed: "The violation here was

> that the driver left the truck running unattended and lost control of

> the ammo box when he went to the donut shop."
> 
> Comment:
> 
> There are users that every day transport radioactive materials in 
> higher activity, as the case of industrial radiography.
> During my activities in
> Brazil I have registered two cases. In one of them the thief
abandoned

> the equipment in one site and in the second he threw out the
equipment

> in the River. Hopefully there was not damage to equipments and in
both

> cases were applied penalties. This fact is used in training  as 
> example of high violation during transport, to emphasize the
necessity

> of  imperative request during transport to follow procedures. In 
> Brazil also for such transport it is requested that a driver needs to

> have an assistant for emergencies situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Julio Rozental
> 
> joseroze at netvision.net.il
> 
> Israel
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <TConley at kdhe.state.ks.us>
> To: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:46 PM
> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Re: Radioactive Material Stolen While Man In 
> Donut Shop
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Now someone pleeeeeeeease tell me what the hell a
> rad materials was doing
> > in an ammo box >in the first place? Think the
> driver kind of violated some
> > DOT Laws?
> >
> > Ammo boxes are an approved type A package and are
> frequently used to
> > transport nuclear medicine doses from a
> radiopharmacy to a client hospital
> > or clinic.  This is a perfectly legitimate method
> to transport radioactive
> > material.  You might also be interested to know
> that certain brief cases
> > are also commonly approved for transport too.
> >
> > The violation here was that the driver left the
> truck running unattended
> > and lost control of the ammo box when he went to
> the donut shop.
> >
> > Thomas A. Conley, RRPT, CHP
> > Section Chief, Radiation and Asbestos Control Kansas Department of

> > Health and Environment
> > Phone: (785) 296-1565
> > email: tconley at kdhe.state.ks.us
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> 
> 
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+++++++++++++++++++
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will
annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." Herm Albright

-- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com

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