Re: HP as a career & qualifications

["Sandy Perle" <sandyfl@earthlink.net>]

Hi Ron, 

further comments follow.

> You failed to answer my question, and did not even refer to the engineer.
> My response follows.

> I know of no state certification requirements for physicians or attorneys
> who wish to practice their professions; in most states, including Washington
> (mine) and California (yours), a licensed physician can offer practice in
> any specialty and can legally perform any procedure.  It is only
> professional pressure that limits an individual's practice.  In our state at
> least, an attorney BY LAW cannot claim to specialize, and can gain a license
> without a law degree if he/she has met specific study requirements.

To practice medicine, the physician must have a degree. An 
attorney must pass the Bar in all states (as far as I know), before 
they can practice law. What you are doing is addressing both the 
degree and certification. All I am saying is, that there are 
requirements for physicians and attorneys, and there are not the 
same requirements for HPs. I pose a different question for you to 
consider. If you were a company that was shown to be prone to 
hackers getting into all of the supposed "security tight" systems, 
would you hire an individual who had a computer science degree, 
perhaps with a few specialized certifications, or, would you go out 
and hire the individuals who have been getting into your systems 
on a routine basis, even if they had no degree or certifications? I 
ask this because the reality is, and there is much to support this, 
that in many of the large companys, the individuals hired to set up 
programs to make their systems "hacker proof" are the same 
individuals who have broken in, and, most have no educational 
background or certifications. They just liked to play with 
computers, and hacking was simply entertainment. The final point 
being, hire the individual who can best meet the needs of the 
position. I also would like to add that the discussion was on what 
"qualified" means. Somehow that has been missed in all of this, 
and I am not referring to your comments alone.

> >Unless there is a specific 
> >requirement by a facility, there is no statewide, or national 
> >requirement for someone who professes to be a health physicist, 
> >that they also have a degree, and, hold a certification.
> 
> How about RG 8.8?  A few states have licensure requirements, and ABHP
> certification is taken as prima facie  evidence that the individual is
> qualified to perform x-ray surveys and shielding designs.

As you are aware, Regulatory Guides are recommendations. They 
are not gospel, and are the thoughts of those in the NRC who were 
so chosen to write the Reg Guides. There are many RG's that have 
no technical basis, and have been written by individuals who had 
no real knowledge of what they were writing about. I am also 
familiar with RGs that once required the RPM at a power reactor to 
hold a CHP. That wa slater changed to the RPM should be capable 
of meeting the requirements of CHP. As far as CHP meeting prima 
facie evidence, I have no objection. As I said, there are some jobs 
where an individual MUST have a degree and in some cases, 
further evidence of knowledge or learning, which includes 
certifications. I remind you again, that the discussion originally 
centered on classifying an individual as "non-qualified" solely on 
the basis of no degree or no certification. There are always 
positions where there must be specific requirements set forth. 

> I agree, but as was pointed out, certification is evidence of knowledge and
> accomplishment in the field.

I agree.

>  My point is, there are many factors in 
> >considering an individual as qualified. To place the term solely on 
> >degrees and certifications, well, just not acceptable.
> 
> Agree; the same is true for physicians, lawyers, engineers, and other
> professionals.  But degrees and certifications are important evidence of
> although they do not assure competency (and ethics).

Again, we both agree.

> >As far as my first introductory remarks .. they were not meant to 
> >be offensive or insulting to anyone. I was solely referring to the 
> >comment how others deem an individual to be "unqualified" (can't 
> >remember who wrote that) but that was my point. In other words,, 
> >the decision makers make the decisions..and if they deem 
> >someone unqualified .. so be it..
> 
> To protect the public, it is necessary to set a base level standard; that is
> why a physician must have a degree from an approved medical school, and
> successfully pass the rigorous state board exams.  Should any less care be
> given to specification of qualifications for engineers or health physicists,
> whose actions and decisions may adversely affect life, health and property?
> As an example, I deem chiropractic physicians as unqualified to practice
> surgery, or to prescribe drugs.  They simply do not possess the right
> degrees and certifications, which is prima facie evidence that they are not
> qualified in these areas.  As for spinal manipulation, they are likely well
> qualified, assuming they hold the D.C. degree and have passed the state
> licensure exam.

This still comes down to defining what and who an HP can be. 
Once you have done that, you must define whether or not only 
individuals who possess a degree and/or certification can call 
themselves that. I say to do so is quite wrong. An HP is an 
individual who works in the profession to protect the public from the 
harmful effects (if any). They can be working in the power reactor, 
hospital, industrial facility, anywhere. If they do, I consider them to 
be HPs, and whether or not they have a degree or certification, I 
respect them for their contributions to the profession. I would never 
deem myself competent to judge them, and state categorically, 
that without the paper on the wall, that they are from this point 
forward, considered "non-qualified".

> Finally, I wonder if you would think differently if you were a P.E.,
> licensed M.D. or attorney, or even a CHP or NRRPT.

I can say with all honesty, yes. I have hired a whole staff of 
individuals, all with advanced degrees, and, have also hired a key 
individual who has no degree, but that individual has a wealth of 
knowledge and experience, and can not be matched by anyone 
else who has the paper trail behind them. I have also done this 
while working in the power reactor world for 22 years. So yes, I can 
say that I would still feel this way, if I happened to meet your 
criteria above.

Hopefully others will jump in. I've stirred the pot enough .. time for 
others to give this some thought.

Regards to all.

------------------------
Sandy Perle
E-Mail: sandyfl@earthlink.net
Personal Website: http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/1205

************************************************************************
The RADSAFE Frequently Asked Questions list, archives and subscription
information can be accessed at http://www.ehs.uiuc.edu/~rad/radsafe.html