[ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?

Fri Apr 21 00:58:44 CDT 2006

Jose,
    Yes, I recall discussing it with Bo Lindell in the early 70's. [see:
Health Physics, Vol.25, pp 527-528, Nov. 1973]. Too bad the idea has been so
badly corrupted since then.
Best regards,    Jerry Cohen


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jose Julio Rozental" <joseroze at netvision.net.il>
To: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>; "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>;
"Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>; "Michael Bohan"
<mike.bohan at yale.edu>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?


> Your topic " The point I have tried to make in this discussion is that
ALARA is a
> basically absurd concept, because what is or isn't reasonable is largely
in
> the eye of the beholder. Consequently, ALARA decisions can, and have been
> arbitrary in nature.
> Many years ago (1969), ..."
>
> Reminded me the Bo Lindell's paper RISK EVALUATION AND DECISION MAKING,
> presented at IRPA 9
>
>
>
> Bo also used similar words, in the early days... in the old days, in the
> above paper and presentation, to explain
>
> reasons and believes,
>
> .......................
>
> ............................
>
> Have you this paper? - If not I can send you the complete text, if you are
> interested
>
> Jose Julio Rozental
> joseroze at netvision.net.il
> Israel
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>
> To: "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>; "Flanigan, Floyd"
> <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>; "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>;
> <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?
>
>
> > John,
> >     All of my decisions and actions are reasonable. I am not so sure
about
> > yours-- and, other peoples decisions have been really bad.
> >     The point I have tried to make in this discussion is that  ALARA is
a
> > basically absurd concept, because what is or isn't reasonable is largely
> in
> > the eye of the beholder. Consequently, ALARA decisions can, and have
been
> > arbitrary in nature.
> > Many years ago (1969), in an attempt to resolve this problem, I
suggested
> > placing a monetary value on the benefit of avoiding radiation dose
levels
> > [and was severely criticized for trying to "place a price on human
life"].
> > Since then, several other attempts were made to do the same thing(i.e.,
> > $1000/man-rem). Some regulatory decisions (ie, EPA site cleanup
guidance)
> > have reflected  apparent values exceeding $1 million/person/rem). In any
> > case, ALARA decisions remain largely arbitrary in nature and, as a
result,
> > many ridiculous decisions can and have been made.
> >     Even if one accepts the LNT hypothesis, ALARA guidance is
essentially
> no
> > guidance, since just about any action can be justified as being ALARA if
> one
> > places a high enough value on dose avoidance.  Without LNT, the
absurdity
> of
> > ALARA should be obvious.
> > Jerry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>
> > To: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>; "Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>;
> > "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?
> >
> >
> > > Jerry,
> > > Health physicist like me are not dense.  However, we
> > > often have to deal with people that are.
> > >
> > > To me, eating and drinking in laboratories where toxic
> > > chemicals and biological agents are used is
> > > unreasonable.  The IHs at this place let the
> > > researchers do it.
> > >
> > > --- jjcohen at prodigy.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is certainly nice to know that  ALARA policy
> > > > recommends that radiation
> > > > safety actions be reasonable in nature. I personally
> > > > believe that ALL human
> > > > actions should be reasonable, but that's just my
> > > > opinion.  I haven't run
> > > > across many advocates for unreasonableness, but if I
> > > > do, I will cite the
> > > > Health Physics ALARA policy to show them how things
> > > > should be done.
> > > > I wonder why Health Physicists are so dense, that
> > > > they must be continually
> > > > reminded to be reasonable.
> > > > Jerry Cohen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>
> > > > To: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>; "Michael Bohan"
> > > > <mike.bohan at yale.edu>;
> > > > <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:11 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I beg to differ. ALARA is now a relatively universal
> > > > concept used by
> > > > industry. It is applied to all forms of risk whether
> > > > radiological or
> > > > not. Safety professionals and PRA engineers use it
> > > > on a regular basis as
> > > > well as OSHA in a manner. Any time risk can be
> > > > reduced without causing a
> > > > detriment it should be done. In the case of
> > > > emergency x-ray, of course
> > > > it is necessary to take the x-ray in order to
> > > > provide proper, possibly
> > > > life-saving treatment. That should be a
> > > > "no-brainer". A good analogy
> > > > would be that a man has a heart attack while
> > > > crossing a busy street.
> > > > Should you move him or perform CPR in the middle of
> > > > traffic? The answer,
> > > > of course, depends on the severity of the attack and
> > > > the logistics
> > > > involved in controlling traffic safely as well as
> > > > other factors such as
> > > > time of day/traffic flow, distance to nearest
> > > > hospital, etc. etc. etc.
> > > > Each case will have differing variables which will
> > > > make the decision
> > > > making process unique. It seems as though we are
> > > > trying to paint this
> > > > one in black and white and in the process are
> > > > creating dissention.
> > > > Conservative decision making takes into account all
> > > > of these things and
> > > > should be used by all in positions of
> > > > responsibility. Right and wrong
> > > > are not really applicable in many instances.
> > > >
> > > > Floyd W. Flanigan B.S.Nuc.H.P.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl
> > > > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
> > > > Behalf Of jjcohen at prodigy.net
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:25 PM
> > > > To: Michael Bohan; radsafe at radlab.nl
> > > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > > >
> > > > Michael,
> > > >     I am an Industrial Hygienist (CIH), and I resent
> > > > your attempt to pin
> > > > the
> > > > ALARA nonsense on  Industrial Hygienists. ALARA is
> > > > strictly a Health
> > > > Physics
> > > > invention, which IMHO was designed to justify the
> > > > application of
> > > > absurdly
> > > > restrictive controls to operations involving
> > > > ionizing radiation.
> > > > Jerry Cohen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>
> > > > To: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:13 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Floyd and RadSafer's:
> > > > >
> > > > > In medicine, the conservative approach (of ALARA
> > > > for radiation) is
> > > > > usually NOT advisable.  ALARA is specifically an
> > > > industrial hygiene
> > > > > practice that has been bastardized by some to
> > > > apply to realms it was
> > > > > never intended for.
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is a pregnant mother, who's been in a
> > > > serious car accident,
> > > > > the risk of having an undiagnosed condition that
> > > > results in immediate
> > > > > death to the mother and/or fetus, is real.   The
> > > > theoretical risk of
> > > > > even a 10 rad dose to her and the fetus are a very
> > > > small concern in
> > > > > comparison.  Even with a dose of 10 rad, the
> > > > theoretical risk to the
> > > > > fetus is about 1 in a thousand, and it might only
> > > > be expressed many
> > > > > years later.  However, the mortality of mothers
> > > > and fetuses from
> > > > > serious car accidents and undiagnosed trauma, is
> > > > immediate and
> > > > probably
> > > > > would lead to 10's if not 100's of
> > > > deaths/thousand, if modern
> > > > > diagnostic tests are withheld due to radiophobia.
> > > > It should be
> > > > > remembered that ALARA is meant to keep
> > > > occupational workers well away
> > > > > from any risk at all, even theoretical ones.  When
> > > > reality strikes, we
> > > > > need to use a different set of standards.
> > > > >
> > > > > ALARA does have a place in medicine.  Medical
> > > > Physicists spend a lot
> > > > of
> > > > > time and energy making sure that all hospital
> > > > equipment provides the
> > > > > best diagnostic information for the smallest
> > > > necessary dose.
> > > > However,
> > > > > ALARA should never be used to deny a patient a
> > > > necessary diagnostic
> > > > > procedure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Bohan, RSO
> > > > > Yale-New Haven Hospital
> > > > > Radiological Physics
> > > > > 20 York St. - WWW 204
> > > > > New Haven, CT 06510
> > > > > Tele: (203) 688-2950
> > > > > Fax: (203) 688-8682
> > > > > Email: mike.bohan at yale.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > This message originates from Yale New Haven Health
> > > > System. The
> > > > > information contained in this message may be
> > > > privileged and
> > > > > confidential. If you are the intended recipient,
> > > > you must maintain
> > > > this
> > > > > message in a secure and confidential manner. If
> > > > you are not the
> > > > > intended recipient, please notify the sender
> > > > immediately and destroy
> > > > > this message. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:32 PM,
> > > > radsafe-request at radlab.nl wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I realize this. But taking the conservative
> > > > approach is always
> > > > > > advisable. Hence ALARA. The lack of set limits
> > > > is an issue which
> > > > should
> > > > > > be addressed. We cannot continue to let the
> > > > medical world
> > > > self-police.
> > > > > > They have proven time and time again that they
> > > > are prone to leaning
> > > > to
> > > > > > one extreme or the other. The limit should
> > > > mirror occupational dose
> > > > > > except, of course in the case of limits
> > > > hindering treatment. All of
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > falls into the principals of ALARA in one way or
> > > > another.
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > === message truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > > +++++++++++++++++++
> > > "A scientist's aim in a discussion with his colleagues is not to
> persuade,
> > but to clarify."
> > > Leo Szilard
> > > -- John
> > > John Jacobus, MS
> > > Certified Health Physicist
> > > e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com
> > >
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