[ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?

Fri Apr 21 00:24:07 CDT 2006

Your topic " The point I have tried to make in this discussion is that
ALARA is a
basically absurd concept, because what is or isn't reasonable is largely in
the eye of the beholder. Consequently, ALARA decisions can, and have been
arbitrary in nature.
Many years ago (1969), ..."

Reminded me the Bo Lindell's paper RISK EVALUATION AND DECISION MAKING,
presented at IRPA 9

Bo also used similar words, in the early days... in the old days, in the
above paper and presentation, to explain

reasons and believes,

.......................

............................

Have you this paper? - If not I can send you the complete text, if you are
interested

Jose Julio Rozental
joseroze at netvision.net.il
Israel

----- Original Message -----
From: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>
To: "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>; "Flanigan, Floyd"
<Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>; "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>;
<radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?

> John,
>     All of my decisions and actions are reasonable. I am not so sure about
> yours-- and, other peoples decisions have been really bad.
>     The point I have tried to make in this discussion is that  ALARA is a
> basically absurd concept, because what is or isn't reasonable is largely
in
> the eye of the beholder. Consequently, ALARA decisions can, and have been
> arbitrary in nature.
> Many years ago (1969), in an attempt to resolve this problem, I suggested
> placing a monetary value on the benefit of avoiding radiation dose levels
> [and was severely criticized for trying to "place a price on human life"].
> Since then, several other attempts were made to do the same thing(i.e.,
> $1000/man-rem). Some regulatory decisions (ie, EPA site cleanup guidance)
> have reflected  apparent values exceeding $1 million/person/rem). In any
> case, ALARA decisions remain largely arbitrary in nature and, as a result,
> many ridiculous decisions can and have been made.
>     Even if one accepts the LNT hypothesis, ALARA guidance is essentially
no
> guidance, since just about any action can be justified as being ALARA if
one
> places a high enough value on dose avoidance.  Without LNT, the absurdity
of
> ALARA should be obvious.
> Jerry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>
> To: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>; "Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>;
> "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:Reasonable risk?
>
>
> > Jerry,
> > Health physicist like me are not dense.  However, we
> > often have to deal with people that are.
> >
> > To me, eating and drinking in laboratories where toxic
> > chemicals and biological agents are used is
> > unreasonable.  The IHs at this place let the
> > researchers do it.
> >
> > --- jjcohen at prodigy.net wrote:
> >
> > > It is certainly nice to know that  ALARA policy
> > > recommends that radiation
> > > safety actions be reasonable in nature. I personally
> > > believe that ALL human
> > > actions should be reasonable, but that's just my
> > > opinion.  I haven't run
> > > across many advocates for unreasonableness, but if I
> > > do, I will cite the
> > > Health Physics ALARA policy to show them how things
> > > should be done.
> > > I wonder why Health Physicists are so dense, that
> > > they must be continually
> > > reminded to be reasonable.
> > > Jerry Cohen
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>
> > > To: <jjcohen at prodigy.net>; "Michael Bohan"
> > > <mike.bohan at yale.edu>;
> > > <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:11 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > >
> > >
> > > I beg to differ. ALARA is now a relatively universal
> > > concept used by
> > > industry. It is applied to all forms of risk whether
> > > radiological or
> > > not. Safety professionals and PRA engineers use it
> > > on a regular basis as
> > > well as OSHA in a manner. Any time risk can be
> > > reduced without causing a
> > > detriment it should be done. In the case of
> > > emergency x-ray, of course
> > > it is necessary to take the x-ray in order to
> > > provide proper, possibly
> > > life-saving treatment. That should be a
> > > "no-brainer". A good analogy
> > > would be that a man has a heart attack while
> > > crossing a busy street.
> > > Should you move him or perform CPR in the middle of
> > > traffic? The answer,
> > > of course, depends on the severity of the attack and
> > > the logistics
> > > involved in controlling traffic safely as well as
> > > other factors such as
> > > time of day/traffic flow, distance to nearest
> > > hospital, etc. etc. etc.
> > > Each case will have differing variables which will
> > > make the decision
> > > making process unique. It seems as though we are
> > > trying to paint this
> > > one in black and white and in the process are
> > > creating dissention.
> > > Conservative decision making takes into account all
> > > of these things and
> > > should be used by all in positions of
> > > responsibility. Right and wrong
> > > are not really applicable in many instances.
> > >
> > > Floyd W. Flanigan B.S.Nuc.H.P.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl
> > > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
> > > Behalf Of jjcohen at prodigy.net
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:25 PM
> > > To: Michael Bohan; radsafe at radlab.nl
> > > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >     I am an Industrial Hygienist (CIH), and I resent
> > > your attempt to pin
> > > the
> > > ALARA nonsense on  Industrial Hygienists. ALARA is
> > > strictly a Health
> > > Physics
> > > invention, which IMHO was designed to justify the
> > > application of
> > > absurdly
> > > restrictive controls to operations involving
> > > ionizing radiation.
> > > Jerry Cohen
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Michael Bohan" <mike.bohan at yale.edu>
> > > To: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:13 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Floyd and RadSafer's:
> > > >
> > > > In medicine, the conservative approach (of ALARA
> > > for radiation) is
> > > > usually NOT advisable.  ALARA is specifically an
> > > industrial hygiene
> > > > practice that has been bastardized by some to
> > > apply to realms it was
> > > > never intended for.
> > > >
> > > > If there is a pregnant mother, who's been in a
> > > serious car accident,
> > > > the risk of having an undiagnosed condition that
> > > results in immediate
> > > > death to the mother and/or fetus, is real.   The
> > > theoretical risk of
> > > > even a 10 rad dose to her and the fetus are a very
> > > small concern in
> > > > comparison.  Even with a dose of 10 rad, the
> > > theoretical risk to the
> > > > fetus is about 1 in a thousand, and it might only
> > > be expressed many
> > > > years later.  However, the mortality of mothers
> > > and fetuses from
> > > > serious car accidents and undiagnosed trauma, is
> > > immediate and
> > > probably
> > > > would lead to 10's if not 100's of
> > > deaths/thousand, if modern
> > > > diagnostic tests are withheld due to radiophobia.
> > > It should be
> > > > remembered that ALARA is meant to keep
> > > occupational workers well away
> > > > from any risk at all, even theoretical ones.  When
> > > reality strikes, we
> > > > need to use a different set of standards.
> > > >
> > > > ALARA does have a place in medicine.  Medical
> > > Physicists spend a lot
> > > of
> > > > time and energy making sure that all hospital
> > > equipment provides the
> > > > best diagnostic information for the smallest
> > > necessary dose.
> > > However,
> > > > ALARA should never be used to deny a patient a
> > > necessary diagnostic
> > > > procedure.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mike Bohan, RSO
> > > > Yale-New Haven Hospital
> > > > Radiological Physics
> > > > 20 York St. - WWW 204
> > > > New Haven, CT 06510
> > > > Tele: (203) 688-2950
> > > > Fax: (203) 688-8682
> > > > Email: mike.bohan at yale.edu
> > > >
> > > > This message originates from Yale New Haven Health
> > > System. The
> > > > information contained in this message may be
> > > privileged and
> > > > confidential. If you are the intended recipient,
> > > you must maintain
> > > this
> > > > message in a secure and confidential manner. If
> > > you are not the
> > > > intended recipient, please notify the sender
> > > immediately and destroy
> > > > this message. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 18, 2006, at 2:32 PM,
> > > radsafe-request at radlab.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I realize this. But taking the conservative
> > > approach is always
> > > > > advisable. Hence ALARA. The lack of set limits
> > > is an issue which
> > > should
> > > > > be addressed. We cannot continue to let the
> > > medical world
> > > self-police.
> > > > > They have proven time and time again that they
> > > are prone to leaning
> > > to
> > > > > one extreme or the other. The limit should
> > > mirror occupational dose
> > > > > except, of course in the case of limits
> > > hindering treatment. All of
> > > > > this
> > > > > falls into the principals of ALARA in one way or
> > > another.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++
> > "A scientist's aim in a discussion with his colleagues is not to
persuade,
> but to clarify."
> > Leo Szilard
> > -- John
> > John Jacobus, MS
> > Certified Health Physicist
> > e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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