[ RadSafe ] Pepto-Bismol

Wed Dec 13 03:27:44 CST 2006

Hmm,
I posted a similar idea, with a twist, on one of the Yahoo radiation
groups last week.
The some airports use neutron activation for checked baggage screening,
Bismuth +N =Bi210, decays to Po210,
Bottle of Pepto-Bismol in luggage..........
I have no idea of the neutron dose used or the amount of Bi210 that
would be produced, but I do know that activation of silver jewelry by
baggage scanners has been of concern to some. I don't have a reference,
my archive hard disk went down recently and I've not restored it all
yet.

Robert Atkinson. 

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
Behalf Of Flanigan, Floyd
Sent: 13 December 2006 07:05
To: edmond0033; Perrero, Daren; John R Johnson; Kai Kaletsch;
parthasarathy k s; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of poloniumon
largescalecontamination ?

Here is an old post from RADSAFE ... August of 1993 I believe it says:

From: romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu!sciences.sdsu.edu!elindstrom (E Lindstrom)
To:   Multiple recipients of list SAFETY
<uga.cc.uga.edu!SAFETY%UVMVM.BITNET>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 14:06:26 PDT

"Is there is any institution on the Safety Net interested in the
procurement of
several 1 Curie Plutonium-Beryllium sources?  I need to get rid of at
least
three sources so that I can dump our NRC Special Nuclear Materials
License.
We're on the Los Alamos (DOE) PuBe source collection list, but I fear it
will
be years before they get around to us.  Apparently they will only accept
sources in the shipping containers that they provide, and the last I
heard
they only had one or two containers!

SDSU will provide shipping, proper storage containers, source
documentation,
leak test results (and dinner for two) to those parties interested.
Please
post a message here if you  or someone you know would like to own a PuBe
source.  I can also be reached at (619) 594-6098.

Erick Lindstrom
Radiation Safety Officer
Department of Environmental Health and Safety
San Diego State University"

Now suppose someone got their hands on any number of these "Neutron
Howitzers" and a few bottles of Pepto Bismol ..... Bismuth + Neutron =
Hhhmmmm ... Polonium-210.

Now .... Let's say I'm an ex Russian Spy .... And my tummy hurts ... it
hurts quite often because I have frequent indigestion and a mild ulcer
..... 

Now let's say I'm a guy who wants to make that ex Russian Spy go away
because his cat crapped in my sandbox a couple of decades ago and I am
just one of those nasty people who hold grudges. I get some 'special'
Pepto into his hands somehow ... probably not that difficult ... the
stuff's PINK for crying out loud. People don't tend to be suspicious of
pink things ... especially pink things that taste like lovely
wintergreen candy.

See ... I sold a guy a car many, many years ago. It was a '65 LeMans. My
brother and I had souped it up to the point where it ate Corvettes for
lunch. He did the mechanical work and I figured out the air to fuel mix
magic and associated tech end of it. We were very proud of our work and
the buyer promised he would take good care of 'her'. Three days later he
got drunk and used our creation to kill himself while simultaneously
making a really decent dent in a really big tree.

My point?

You never know what someone is going to do with a thing once they
possess it. Their intentions may be genuine at the onset, but may change
over time. Anyone with enough determination can get their hands on just
about anything. The logistics of how and where the Polonium-210 was
produced and subsequently administered to Mr. Litvinenko will most
likely remain a mystery unless someone confesses or a proverbial smoking
gun is found. It is, however, an interesting commentary on the lengths
one human being will go to in order to do harm to another human being.
Interesting and sad. Primates ... that's what we are ... like it or not
... are the only animals on the planet proven to bear homicidal
animosity toward their own kind on a massive scale. Yes ... other
animals kill their own kind over territory, food supply etc. But only on
a tiny scale, knowing the importance of preserving their particular
species. It may not be a conscious decision on their part. Most likely a
part of their genetic imprint, meant to preserve the species. We, on the
other hand, knowing better than all of the rest what we are doing to our
own kind, are the most intro-vicious (Ooooo ... Did I just invent a
word?)  We scraped and clawed our way to the top of the food chain, but
we've yet to rise to the occasion. Whether you take a philosophical or
spiritual view on the matter, we are the custodians of this planet and
everything on it. With that comes a measure of human responsibility. We
will not have grown into our inheritance until we stop utilizing our Ids
and opposable thumbs to harm one another. 

Litvinenko made the front page because the press put "RADIATION" in
italics but the issue is much deeper and should strike us as such. 

Floyd W. Flanigan B.S.Nuc.H.P.

-----Original Message-----
From: edmond0033 [mailto:edmond0033 at comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:22 AM
To: Perrero, Daren; Flanigan, Floyd; John R Johnson; Kai Kaletsch;
parthasarathy k s; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of poloniumon large
scalecontamination ?

Many years ago we did work on Polonium-210 in tobaccoand tobacco smoke.
Also we did studies on lungs of smokers and non-smokers, (of course they
were from deceased persons).  Unfortunately theses sample had to be wet
ashed first.  The Polonium-210 was then plated on silver siver disks.
The
methodology appeared in the USHEW, PHS Environmental Health Series -
Radiological Health "RADIOASSAY PROCEDURES FOR ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES"
(1967)
pp7-39 to 7-41.  Later we examined food products taken from a plant that
used the coated beads as static eliminators.  In this case, they were
counted on thin window Low-Level Alpha/Beta gas flow proportional
Counter.

Ed Baratta
edmond0033 at comcast.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Perrero, Daren" <PERRERO at iema.state.il.us>
To: "Flanigan, Floyd" <Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com>; "John R Johnson"
<idias at interchange.ubc.ca>; "Kai Kaletsch" <eic at shaw.ca>; "parthasarathy
k
s" <ksparth at yahoo.co.uk>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of poloniumon large
scalecontamination ?

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but at this point I am under the
understanding that yes industrial sources of Po-210 exists but those
materials are in bound form (ceramics, plated metals, etc).  As such I
would
suspect that some serious chemistry would have to be performed to
removed
the Po-210 from those sources and get it into a form that is
transferable
and could then result in an intake/uptake.

To avoid those issues, the 'raw material' would have to be produced via
fission and then purchased/diverted/smuggled if an individual had
nefarious
purposes in mind.

Is this a correct understanding?

The opinions expressed are mine, all mine.....
I'm with the government, I'm here to help you.
Daren Perrero
perrero at iema.state.il.us

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl]On
Behalf Of Flanigan, Floyd
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:35 AM
To: John R Johnson; Kai Kaletsch; parthasarathy k s; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of
poloniumonlargescalecontamination ?

The media has touted a few times that whoever poisoned Lithinwhoozit had
to have had access to a "nuclear reactor" in order to get the PO-210.

Hhhmmmm ... Po-210 is used in some industrial applications such as
static eliminators, which are devices designed to eliminate static
electricity in processes such as rolling paper, manufacturing sheet
plastics, and spinning synthetic fibers. It is also used as a power
supply in small satellites, and in the oil industry.

Why must the media make the whole thing sound so 'cloak and dagger'?
Murder just isn't news-worthy enough these days I guess. Now NUCLEAR
MURDER ... There's something likely to get the ratings up a bit! Reminds
me of a silly little movie they put out a while back ....Atomic Twister?

Floyd W. Flanigan B.S.Nuc.H.P.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
Behalf Of John R Johnson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 8:35 AM
To: Kai Kaletsch; parthasarathy k s; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of polonium
onlargescalecontamination ?

Thanks Kai

I'm glad to see somebody else reminding Radsafers that Po-210 is "all
around
us".

John
 _________________
John R Johnson, Ph.D.
*****
President, IDIAS, Inc
4535 West 9-Th Ave
Vancouver B. C.
V6R 2E2
(604) 222-9840
idias at interchange.ubc.ca
*****

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl]On
Behalf Of Kai Kaletsch
Sent: December 11, 2006 6:09 AM
To: parthasarathy k s; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of polonium on
largescalecontamination ?

You get some Po-210 on ventilation ducting used in uranium mills. (30
years
of Rn-222 decay and Pb-210 buildup.) The issue for those working on the
ducting, is inhalation and spreading the contamination around.

Airborne long-lived alpha is collected on a filter (Pall 61630 or
similar)
with a 6 - 10 hour sample pump (SKC-224 or similar) running at 2 - 3
l/min
and then allowed to decay for days to get rid of the short lived Rn-222
and
Rn-220 progeny. (If you were looking for a lot of activity, you could
get by
with a shorter sample and no decay time.)

Removable contamination is collected on a swipe (DefensAP WSD-8523 or
similar), no decay period needed. Samples (filters or swipes) are
counted in
a portable alpha counter (TM372 made by my company, or similar). An
alpha
spectrum (sorry, I don't recall a brand name. Most mines send these
samples
to an off-site lab.) is taken on a few of the samples to confirm that
you
have Po-210.

If you want to detect fixed contamination,  you probably would still use
a
probe covered in aluminized Mylar. And, yes, the average life of those
windows is approximately equal to the 1/2 life of Po-210.

Could you send me more detail on your method of depositing ZnS(Ag) with
silicone oil? Do you remember a brand name of the silicone oil...? We
have
tried a few methods for depositing ZnS(Ag) and are not 100% happy with
any
of them.

Thanks,
Kai Kaletsch
Environmental Instruments Canada Inc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "parthasarathy k s" <ksparth at yahoo.co.uk>
To: "RadSafeInst" <RadSafeInst at cableone.net>; "John R Johnson"
<idias at interchange.ubc.ca>; "David Schauer" <dschauer at usuhs.mil>;
<radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: [ RadSafe ] Any experience in detection of polonium on large
scalecontamination ?

Detection of polonium contamination by area monitoring has certain
difficulties. Since the range of alpha particle from Po-210 is only a
few cm
in air and the gamma emision accompanying Po decay is very feeble, how
do
you carry out large scale area monitoring?

If you are using large area alpha scintillation counters, based on Zn
S(Ag),
one of the problems is to maintain the background counting rate at a low
value.The thin (0.1 mg/square cm)aluminium covered window develops
pinholes
leading to light leaks. This results in stray counting.  We had
difficulty
in less trying circumstances. we had to replace the thin  alunmnium foil
very frequently

This story is decades old! Now there may be better instruments availble
commercially.I am an old hand and used to make large area scintillation
counters by making alpha detector foils by sprayng fine ZnS(Ag) powder
on
transparent plastic sheets coated with silicone oil. Can any one in the
list
throw some light on newer methods if any? I was told that large area air
proportional counters are available commercially. During the seventies
we
tried to develop  spark counters with limited  success.

Urine sampling etc is well developed and relatively easy though time
consuming and is not applicable in area monitoring!The UK Health
Protection
Agency must be combing large areas
Not much is known about the methods used by them.

The infamous polonium poisoning incident is worrying for those who have
to
carry out area minitoring in case some rogue elements try to spray it in
busy malls, shoping centres etc.

Regards

K.S.Parthasarathy

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