AW: [ RadSafe ] Re:"State of Fear", false greenhouse analogy

Wed Feb 22 03:56:58 CST 2006

Jim:

"This is a false analogy"! That is what I wanted to convey and what apparently I failed to achieve.

In an actual greenhouse it is NOT the spectral transmissivity of the glass cover/surface which determines the internal temperature - IN CONTRAST to the temperature of a body whose thermal equilibrium with its surroundings is established by radiation only (barring of course internal energy sources).

And yes, you are correct. It was Arrhenius who introduced this false analogy.

Stewart:

A look from the moon back to earth reveals the overwhelming influence which cloud coverage has on the variability of its albedo - or rather the all-decisive spectral absorptivity-to-emissivity (alpha-to-espilon) ratio, a source of variability which to my knowledge has been neglected entirely by 'greenhouse-forcers' until recently. 

For recent discussions (or "fossil-fuel-industry-funded pseudoscientific disinformation") of non-anthropogenic sources responsible for this cloud variability see: 

Carslaw K S, Harrison R G, Kirkby J, Cosmic rays, clouds, and climate. Science 298(2002)1732-1737

Harrison R G, Stephenson D B, Empirical evidence for a nonlinear effect of galactic comics rays on clouds. Proc. R. Soc. A (2006-01-18) published online

Finally, regarding internal sources. : Geothermal heating alone is good for about 0.2 Kelvin-per-year 'geothermal-forcing' of atmospheric temperature - with huge error margins (Araki T, et al., Experimental investigation of geologically produced antineutrinos with KamLAND. Nature 436(2005)499-503). What do greenhouse-forcers assume regarding its uncertainty (and variability?)?.

Best regards, Rainer 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Stewart Farber [mailto:farbersa at optonline.net] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 21:05
An: Dukelow, James S Jr
Cc: Facius, Rainer; schapel at chapelconsulting.com; idias at interchange.ubc.ca; didi at tgi-sci.com; radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re:"State of Fear"

James,
Thanks for making your post. The criticism  via analogy with a greehouse without sides by earlier posters on this thread, was so simplistic and irrelevant,  it was surpising anyone would raise it as a criticism. Have these folks forgotten the view from the moon of the earth as a sphere and thought about the atmosphere being continuous?

Even with the difference in greenhouse gas emissions between the northern and southern hemispheres, the reduced transfer of pollutants from the north to southern hemispheres across the equator [as was observed the major period of nuclear test fallout during the days of open air testing of nuclear weapons ending in 1963]  would result in the greater impact of greenhouse gases on the hemisphere of origin.

Stewart Farber
===============
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dukelow, James S Jr" <jim.dukelow at pnl.gov>
To: <Rainer.Facius at dlr.de>; <schapel at chapelconsulting.com>; <idias at interchange.ubc.ca>; <didi at tgi-sci.com>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Re:"State of Fear"

>
> This is a false analogy.  The Earth's atmosphere has no side panels 
> that can be removed to let the accumulated heat leak away.  If it 
> leaks anywhere, it leaks to the next county, to an adjoining nation, 
> or halfway around the world.  Actual removal of incoming solar energy 
> is by albedo (reflecting of shortwave energy) and thermal radiation 
> from that part of the Earth and Earth's atmosphere that can "see" 
> outer space (Stefan's Law
> T^4 radiation).  Use of the word "greenhouse" is not perfectly 
> precise, but is quite traditional, going all of the way back to 
> Arrhenius.  The details of the spectral transmission are fully 
> relevant (determining which parts of the atmosphere "see" outer space) 
> and are captured in climate codes by a rather standard 1-D radiation transport model.
>
> It is amusing to see some RADSAFErs who rant and rave about the 
> willingness of the public, the media, and governments to accept the 
> pseudoscience of LNT, themselves so eagerly accept the 
> fossil-fuel-industry-funded pseudoscientific disinformation of the 
> climate sceptics.  RADSAFErs who are actually interested in 
> understanding the climate issues should visit the Real Climate climate 
> blog, www.realclimate.org, maintained by ten or so real climate scientists.
> Their postings typically will generate 50-100s comment from a broad 
> spectrum of readers -- from global warming believers to sceptics.  
> There are something on the order of 50 accumulated posting threads by 
> now, treating a wide variety of the most interesting climate issues.  
> There is a thread dealing with _State of Fear_ that a number of 
> RADSAFE contributors could read with profit.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Jim Dukelow
> Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
> Richland, WA
> jim.dukelow at pnl.gov
>
> These comments are mine and have not been reviewed and/or approved by 
> my management or by the U.S. Department of Energy.
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