AW: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does Work" ?!!

Sat Jul 1 16:56:35 CDT 2006

Hi Rainer,

While I haven't followed this thread in detail, did you mean to say that the protective effect of radiation did NOT effect cancer mortaity?  IIRC, the study results show statistically significant lower cancer mortality.

Regards, Jim

-----Original Message-----
From:	radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl on behalf of Rainer.Facius at dlr.de
Sent:	Sat 7/1/2006 4:06 PM
To:	eic at shaw.ca; radsafe at radlab.nl
Cc:	
Subject:	AW: AW: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does Work" ?!!

Kai:

This appears to me as an argument worth studying further although I am not in a position to do so. Ventilation and dust control measures, however, could not have made a difference given the identical mortality (within the experimental uncertainty) from cancers of the respiratory system.

Furthermore, the protective effect of radiation exposure - if indeed it is a causal relation - did not materialize in cancer mortality but only in mortality from non-malignancies!

Best regards, Rainer

________________________________

Von: Kai Kaletsch [mailto:eic at shaw.ca]
Gesendet: Sa 01.07.2006 19:40
An: Facius, Rainer; radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: AW: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does Work" ?!!

Rainer wrote: "other known potent cancerogenic agents were identified as
operating at these workplaces!"

Is it possible that work practices, hygiene, personal protective equipment
etc. that was mandated as part of a radiation protection program also
protected against the other carcinogens, while the control group had no
protection?

Ventilation and dust control measures that we use in uranium mines to limit
radon and radioactive dust exposures will also help in reducing silica and
diesel exposures.

Best Regards,
Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rainer.Facius at dlr.de>
To: <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>; <hflong at pacbell.net>; <jjcohen at prodigy.net>;
<mike.bohan at yale.edu>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:05 AM
Subject: AW: AW: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does Work" ?!!

"The (Navy Shipyard Worker Study) is characterized by an unhealthy control
group, making it one of the very few studies in occupational epidemiology
not to find a 'health worker effect'(Table 1).  This odd finding challenges
the consisttency criterion(15) (findings whould be consistent across
studies) and makes the entire study suspect.  Comparisons with an unhealthy
control group will, of course, sho a protective effect!"

Strom D J, Cameron J R, McDonald J C. Is it useful to assess annual
effective doses that are less than 100 mSv. (Topics under Debate) Radiat
Prot Dosim98#2(2002)239-245

Dear John:

Thank you for once more providing a copy of this (and the other) paper by
Strom.

Inspection of the above argument and the table reproduced by Strom reveals
that he backs his criticism with the one class of mortality causes, i.e.,
cancer mortality for which usually no reasons are provided why the
employment medical should have prognostic value for cancer risk and hence
would select against cancer prone applicants.

Had instead he chosen to look at those causes for mortality where the
mechanism for such a selection effect is evident and which furnish the
single most frequent cause (close to 43% instead of 25% ) for fatalities,
i.e., circulatory diseases, he would have seen the healthy worker effect in
its common size.

The validity of his above criticism therefore entirely rests upon this
choice of him - and of course on his ignorance of the fact that other known
potent cancerogenic agents were identified as operating at these workplaces!

Furthermore, the significant trend for non-malignancies (and all causes)
between NW <5 mSv and >5 mSv, does not depend on the NNW group (although I
do not want to rest an argument on this).

Thank you anyway for sharing your files.

Best regards, Rainer

Dr. Rainer Facius
German Aerospace Center
Institute of Aerospace Medicine
Linder Hoehe
51147 Koeln
GERMANY
Voice: +49 2203 601 3147 or 3150
FAX:   +49 2203 61970

________________________________

Von: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird at yahoo.com]
Gesendet: Fr 21.04.2006 19:09
An: Facius, Rainer; hflong at pacbell.net; jjcohen at prodigy.net;
mike.bohan at yale.edu; radsafe at radlab.nl
Betreff: Re: AW: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does Work" ?!!

Rainer,

Most of the references material I have refer to other
studies that Dr. Cameron refered to as well as the
shipyard worker study, and I am trying to avoid
expanding the issue.  Nevertheless, the following I
think directly indicates the problem with the shipyard
study.

"The (Navy Shipyard Worker Study) is characterized by
an unhealthy control group, making it one of the very
few studies in occupational epidemiology not to find a
'health worker effect'(Table 1).  This odd finding
challenges the consisttency criterion(15) (findings
whould be consistent across studies) and makes the
entire study suspect.  Comparisons with an unhealthy
control group will, of course, sho a protective
effect!"

This appeared in Radiation Protection Dosimetry, 98:2,
239-245 (2002) as part of a debate.  If you want a
copy, let me know.

As the data is suspect, I think that you will agree
that the conclusions draw by Dr. Cameron may also be
suspect.  Of course, it you think he is right, you are
ignoring the scientific analysis.

As a personal note, Dr. Cameron and I debated this and
other points several years before he died.  He
eventually said that he was not going to cite the
shipyard worker study due to the questions about it.

--- Rainer.Facius at dlr.de wrote:

> John:
>
> Please, could you provide some references to
> published work where the debate counter Cameron's
> arguments has been documented.
>
> Also, if I remember correctly, Cameron served on the
> external referee board which closely supervised
> Matanoski's nuclear shipyard study. I find it
> difficult to imagine that he was called without
> quite some professional standing also in
> epidemiology - but of course I may err here.
>
> Kind regards, Rainer
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl im Auftrag von John
> Jacobus
> Gesendet: Do 20.04.2006 22:00
> An: howard long; jjcohen at prodigy.net; Michael Bohan;
> radsafe at radlab.nl
> Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] In utero dose "Alara Does
> Work" ?!!
>
>
> Dr. Long,
> The late Dr. Cameron's conclusions were debated and
> argued many times.  He was not a trained
> epidemiologist.  You are not a trained
> epidemiologist,
> although you claim to have studied to be one.
>
>

+++++++++++++++++++
"A scientist's aim in a discussion with his colleagues is not to persuade,
but to clarify."
Leo Szilard
-- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com

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