[ RadSafe ] AW: AW: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
Rainer.Facius at dlr.de
Rainer.Facius at dlr.de
Thu Sep 7 14:32:40 CDT 2006
Dear Jim:
Thank you for hat pointer to Alex Beam's article on Richard Lindzen. I might add to the information given there that when Hannibal crossed the Alps (218 BC) they were more or free from glaciers as recent Swiss investigations have established.
When viewing the cartoons on pre-conceptual science that reminded me of several other disciplines :-) ... :-(
Regarding your background information on Taiwan I am inclined to accept it as factual as far as my person is concerned. To use it in a scientific controversy I would need to know more specifics, such as names of ambassadors, dates of their intercession, dates of letters or even excerpts or copies.
Regarding Marshall Brucer's commentary I downloaded the text offered at your site. In order to be able to exploit it, again I would need the bibliographic details necessary for a proper citation. A copy of the full paper might be even more useful.
Finally I want to thank you and the other contributors for an inspiring exchange. Now I have got work to do.
Kind regards, Rainer
________________________________
Von: Muckerheide, Jim (CDA) [mailto:Jim.Muckerheide at state.ma.us]
Gesendet: Do 07.09.2006 20:09
An: Facius, Rainer; hflong at pacbell.net; nbcsoc at hotmail.com; tedrock at starpower.net; radsafe at radlab.nl
Cc: rad-sci-l at wpi.edu; Rad_Sci_Health at yahoogroups.com
Betreff: RE: AW: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
Rainer and All,
> If it is true then relax: "For there is nothing covered that
> will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known."
That may be true, but it has been 70 years and counting...
And without heroic efforts by a few people, e.g., Don Luckey, Ed Calabrese, all would still be dark. Routine science papers, and some letters and presentations, primarily to scientists have negligible effect. The "science" leaders get their own people who are willing to be "successful" academics, and participants in the "review bodies" who are vetted to assure that they "see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil" (or else, as Brucer said, "...be drummed out of science").
As we took our case to Congress, NCRP and our rad protection orgs were crawling the halls of Congress, having "editorial board meetings" with the media, etc. (We also found that the further away they are from knowledgeable professionals, the lower their technical "accuracy."
There's an interesting Aug 30 Boston Globe column on this process, "MIT's inconvenient scientist," at:
http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2006/08/30/mits_inconvenient_scientist/
(It may require a free registration. Let me know if you want me to send it.)
Regards, Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rainer.Facius at dlr.de [mailto:Rainer.Facius at dlr.de]
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:59 PM
> To: hflong at pacbell.net; nbcsoc at hotmail.com;
> tedrock at starpower.net; Muckerheide, Jim (CDA); radsafe at radlab.nl
> Cc: rad-sci-l at WPI.EDU
> Subject: AW: AW: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
>
>
> > ... data ... , has, according to Luan, been withheld by
> authorities<<
>
> Howard,
>
> I wish I had substantiated information to evaluate this claim.
>
> If it is true then relax: "For there is nothing covered that
> will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known."
>
> Kind regards, Rainer
>
> ________________________________
>
> Von: howard long [mailto:hflong at pacbell.net]
> Gesendet: Do 07.09.2006 18:41
> An: Facius, Rainer; nbcsoc at hotmail.com;
> tedrock at starpower.net; jim.muckerheide at state.ma.us; radsafe at radlab.nl
> Cc: rad-sci-l at WPI.EDU
> Betreff: Re: AW: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
>
>
> Taiwan apartment data (that might bring it closer to an ideal
> experiment),
> has, according to Luan, been withheld by authorities with
> that data whose jobs depend on LNT. Sound familiar?
>
> "In war, all plans must be changed after the first battle."
> Indeed, LNT-dependent bureaucrats, in Taiwan and in the USA,
> obscure Taiwan apt and NSWS data that would eliminate their jobs.
>
> Howard Long
>
> Rainer.Facius at dlr.de wrote:
>
> Dear colleague,
>
> a major (if not the most important) point which
> Gregoire&Cleland attempt to make is that we have to identify
> the proper time scale which is characteristic for the action
> of the defensive mechanisms undoing the damage inflicted on
> the molecular level by radiation. The fuzziness of their
> database allowed them just to rule out total dose (which does
> not at all relate to time) and the average/maximum dose per
> week. Their best guess for the proper time interval turned
> out to be the day. So, in the spirit of their argument, dose
> rates other than per day may not be useful as a predictor of
> cancer risk.
>
> I concur with your characterization of the chronic
> Taiwan residential radiation exposures as a most important
> data base relevant for the assessment of the risk from
> chronic low LET radiation. On the other hand, the
> presentation of the epidemiological data (in contrast to the
> dosimetric) in the publications which I know, e.g., Is
> chronic radiation an effective prophylaxis against cancer? J.
> Am. Phys. Surg. 9#1(2004)6-10 leaves too many possible and
> legitimate questions unanswered to count as a definite
> account of that experience. (I do not claim that you don't
> have answers but just that you did not present them in this paper).
>
> I sincerely hope that you and your colleagues will
> continue to evaluate this data base and provide a follow-up
> report which is less prone to valid criticism. (Any criticism
> if offered with sufficient precision is valid.)
>
> Best regards, Rainer
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Von: yuan-chi luan [mailto:nbcsoc at hotmail.com]
> Gesendet: Do 07.09.2006 04:33
> An: hflong at pacbell.net; tedrock at starpower.net;
> jim.muckerheide at state.ma.us; Facius, Rainer; radsafe at radlab.nl
> Cc: rad-sci-l at WPI.EDU; Rad_Sci_Health at yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: RE: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
>
>
>
> Dear Howard and all friends:
>
> I think your still remember the most coincidentally
> experiments conducted by human beings on the health effects
> of radiation in the Taiwan Co-60 contaminated apartments
> incident. I would like to present you the dose rate per hour,
> per day and per year in the incident for your consideration
> in this issue:
>
>
>
> 1, The Taiwan Co-60 incident was first discovered in
> 1992, all the apartments were built in 1981~1984, and most in
> 1983. When a big scale searching program was conducted in
> 1996, there were many apartments surveyed with dose rate per
> hour in greater than 1 mSv/hr in the key positions (of course
> much higher in 1983). The key positions are the sofa in the
> living room, the bed in the bedroom and the stove in the
> kitchen or the table in the study room.
>
>
>
> 2, In the survey operation, the dose rate per day in
> the apartments had been roughly calculated right away, it was
> equivalent to dose rate per hour at sofa multiple 12hrs¤Qdose
> rate per hour at bed multiple 8 hrs¤Qdose rate per hour at
> stove or study table multiple 4hrs, and then divided the
> doses by 24 hrs. The dose rate was always lower than 24 mSv/day.
>
>
>
> 1. In the survey operation, the dose rate per year
> could be also calculated right away. It was equivalent to
> dose rate per day multiple 365 days, and modified with
> various factors, such the days would not be 365 and the
> radiation would decay. The dose rate per year was averaged to
> be about 50 mSv/y, the highest one was about 1000 mSv/y in
> 1983, then it could be based for roughly determining the dose
> rate and the total doses in different year
>
> 4. The most important of the incident was the health
> effects of the chronic radiation we observed in Taiwan Co-60
> incident was that the cancer mortalities of the resident was
> sharply reduced to a few percentage of the general
> population, even the dose rate per year and accumulated doses
> to quite high.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Y.C. Luan Senior Scientist of NuSTA and Consultant of
> NBC Society
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: howard long
> To: Ted Rockwell , Muckerheide-MA ,
> Rainer.Facius at dlr.de, radsafe at radlab.nl
> CC: Rad-Sci-L , Rad_Sci_Health at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: dose RATE of ANY Medicine is the decisive variable
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> 100 aspirin?-?fatal at once, good over a year (to
> reduce clots and mortality rate).
>
> 10 gallons of water - fatal at once, necessary over a
> year (in some form) to sustain life
>
> 1000 usual daily doses of Vit A, D, E, R, etc all at
> once can poison the liver, etc.
>
> Any prescription I write must have the frequency of the
> dose, or a pharmacist would not fill it.
>
> ?lt;/div>
> Hopefully, I will be permitted to prescribe x-ray
> therapy, up to 75 rem 2x/week locally for infections like
> gangrene and rheumatic inflammations like bursitis, and
> uranium ore for the bedroom of arthritics unable to get to
> the health mines.
>
> ?lt;/div>
> Rate is an integral part of dose.
>
> ?lt;/div>
> Howard Long
>
> Ted Rockwell wrote:
>
>
> Jim:
>
> Walston Chubb, formerly of Bettis Lab, has sent me a
> number of letters
> making this point, from a somewhat different (e.g
> thermodynamic) viewpoint.
>
> Didn't you say he had sent you such letters too? They
> fit in rather nicely
> with the subject reports. I should send him a copy of
> this thread, but I
> don't think he has e-mail.
>
> Ted Rockwell
>
>
> > From: "Muckerheide, Jim (CDA)"
> > Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:53:57 -0400
> > To: ,
> > Cc: ,
> > Conversation: [ RadSafe ] dose RATE is the decisive
> variable - the wheel
> > ofreincarnation of ideas
> > Subject: [Rad_Sci_Health] RE: [ RadSafe ] dose RATE
> is the decisive variable -
> > the wheel ofreincarnation of ideas
> >
> > Rainer, All,
> >
> > Note that the link to the 1993 review of Delattre's
> theory is at:
> >
>
> BRUTER C.P. (Ed)
> >
> > It seems to me that the issue of the primacy of dose
> rate is 70 or 80 years
> > old. But ICRP et al. could not be applied to overturn
> the LNT premise as used
> > against medical therapies. However, note that dose
> rate can be reported as
> > just rate. In Jake Spalding's experiments, roughly
> 4000 mice (in each of
> > replicated experiments) were exposed to 5 total
> external (Co-60) doses, at 6
> > dose rates, starting at 4 ages, with about 25 mice in
> each group. The high
> > dose rate of 36000 R/day reflects an actual exposure
> of 25 R in one minute.
> > Doses were 20 to 1620 rad. There was no life
> shortening, and in a strain with
> > very low cancer rates, the cancers were even lower in
> the exposed groups.
> > See, e.g.:
> >
> http://www.radscihealth.org/rsh/Data_Docs/1-3/1/Rev%202%201312
> 2Spal.html
> >
> > During the Manhattan Project and subsequent work,
> e.g., by NCI, dose rate was
> >
> often used as a measure. See, e.g., Egon Lorenz:
> > http://www.radscihealth.org/rsh/Data_Docs/1-3/1/1312lo54.html
> > (Report on Manhattan Project work - Zirkle (Ed.)
> 1954, McGraw-Hill [something
> > like Vol. 22?])
> >
> > http://www.radscihealth.org/rsh/Data_Docs/1-3/1/1313lo50.html
> > (NCI 1950 - after post-War suppression of data had
> again been established,
> > picking up from the pre-War '30s, led by the FDA to
> favor drugs over radiation
> > therapies - especially with the new antibiotics
> instead of the serums of the
> > 1930s.)
> >
> > E.g., the "Yearbook of Radiology" (Yearbook
> Publishers) reported on successful
> > low dose therapies in the 1947 and 1948 volumes, and
> none in the 1949 and 1950
> > volumes.
> >
> > For infections, there are the many papers by Kelley
> and Dowell, mostly in
> > Radiology from 1928-1941, incorporated in their 1942
> text on the subject
> > "Roentgen Treatment of
> Infections." See:
> >
> http://www.radscihealth.org/rsh/docs/Kelly42/Kelly42TableOfCon
> tents.htm
> >
> > Regards, Jim
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl
> >> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf Of
> Rainer.Facius at dlr.de
> >> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 6:00 PM
> >> To: radsafe at radlab.nl
> >> Subject: [ RadSafe ] dose RATE is the decisive variable - the
> >> wheel ofreincarnation of ideas
> >>
> >>
> >> Prof. Raabe's pointer to his publications in the early
> >> 1980ies stirred my subconciousness until it unearthed another
> >> still earlier source where radiobiological responses were
> >> treated as functions of dose-rate as the primary independent
> >> variable instead of dose, and where in the most general case
> >> response function were drawn as a function of time. I
> >> encountered
> this approach during the Symposia on
> >> Microdosimetry, where Pierre Delattre and his co-worker J.
> >> Delforge attempted to persuade radiobiologists to look at
> >> radiobiological experiments - actually already at their
> >> design - from the vantage point of Delattre's systems
> >> theoretical formalism (see refs. below). Unfortunately most
> >> of them apparently were overtaxed by the mathematics (though
> >> mostly only systems of linear differential equations) and -
> >> perhaps more importantly - by the required radical redesign
> >> of the conventional radiobiological experimentation they were
> >> adapted to. In addition, the stage for their proposals was
> >> unfavourable since at these Symposia - as in this decade -
> >> radiobiologists strove to understand radiobiological effects
> >> primarily in terms of the microscopic (later even the
> >> nanoscopic!)
> spatial distribution of initial energy
> >> deposition events in abstract sites - though when pressed
> >> they would invoke DNA as a target.
> >>
> >>> From the second book below I copied an interesting graph
> >> displaying shapes of time-response functions predicted by his
> >> approach which cover hypersensitivity, induced radiation
> >> resistance as encountered experimentally many years later and
> >> (more interestingly) hormesis - 'predicted' 1971! by a
> >> biologically sophisticated systems-theoretical formalism. If
> >> the moderator will let this pass, you can see this predicted
> >> hormetic response in the attached PDF file.
> >>
> >> Regards, Rainer
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Pivotal references:
> >>
> >> Pierre Delattre
> >> Système, Structure, Fonction, Évolution - Essai d'analyse
> >>
> épistémologique.
> >> Maloine-Doin, Paris 1971
> >>
> >> Pierre Delattre
> >> L'Évolution des Sytèmes Moléculaires: Bases théoriques -
> >> Applications ?la Chimie et ?la Biologie.
> >> Maloine-Doin, Paris 1971
> >>
> >> Delattre P.
> >> Sur l'interprétation des certaines aspects morphologiques des
> >> courbes de survie.
> >> In: Proc. 5th Symp. on Microdosimetry (Booz J, Ebert H G,
> >> Smith B G R, eds.), pp 479-515
> >> The Commission of the European Communities, EUR 5452,
> >> Luxembourg, 1976
> >>
> >> I also found a pointer to a slightly more recent short review
> >> of Delattre's work in
> >> http://membres.lycos.fr/mcxapc/lectures/indexlec.htm
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >> Von: Otto Raabe [mailto:ograabe at ucdavis.edu]
> >> Gesendet: Sa 02.09.2006 17:34
> >> An: Facius,
> Rainer; radsafe at radlab.nl
> >> Betreff: Re: AW: [ RadSafe ] dose RATE is the
> decisive variable
> >>
> >>
> >> At 02:17 AM 9/2/2006, Rainer.Facius at dlr.de wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Prof. Raabe:
> >> Though you apparently detected the ramifications of
> >> this fundamental principle quite some time ago, this time the
> >> data pertain directly to human cancer mortality (which of
> >> course I would expect to display the same regularities).
> >>
> >>
> >> Human cancer is from radium is directly evaluated in:
> >>
> >> Raabe, O.G., S.A. Book and N.J. Parks (1980) Bone cancer from
> >> radium: Canine dose response explains data for mice and
> >> humans. Science 208: 61 64.
> >>
> >> Raabe, O.G., S.A. Book and N.J. Parks. (1983) Lifetime bone
> >> cancer dose-response relationships in beagles and people from
> >>
> skeletal burdens of 226Ra and 90Sr. Health Physics 44: 33 48
> >>
> >> Raabe, O.G. (1989) Scaling of fatal cancer risks from
> >> laboratory animals to man. Health Physics 57
> (suppl.1): 419-432.
> >>
> >> Raabe, O.G., L.S. Rosenblatt and R.A Schlenker. (1990)
> >> Interspecies scaling of risk for radiation-induced bone
> >> cancer. International Journal of Radiation Biology
> 57: 1047-1061.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> **********************************************
> >> Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP
> >> Center for Health & the Environment
> >> University of California
> >> One Shields Avenue
> >> Davis, CA 95616
> >> E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu
> >> Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140
> >> ***********************************************
> >>
> >>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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