[ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! Newchallenge:Gov. Lingle

[Brennan, Mike (DOH)]

I think it would be useful to collect bioassay samples from a statistically valid number of military personnel deploying to Iraq (both for the first time and returning), analyze them for various things, and archive them.  Compare them to samples collected from the same people when they return, five years later, and ten years later, as well as tracking their health and that of any children they might have.  Draw your sample cohort from people in different branches of the military, deployed to different places, and doing different jobs.  

Yes, such a program would cost some money, but I suspect less than the cost of not doing it.  The difference is that the money would buy you some data that could be used to address health issues and answer some questions, rather than buying nothing but lawyers and PR types spinning anecdotal evidence, speculations, and lack of data to support their presuppositions.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf Of Bob Cherry
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:35 AM
To: 'Franz Schönhofer'; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! Newchallenge:Gov. Lingle

Franz,

Thank you for interest. Responding to questions:
----------
1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?

A: My note was limited in scope to the topic of DU in American service members. The topic involves a DU bill in Hawaii for Hawaiian war veterans.
My concerns about soldiers of other nations and civilians are not relevant to the topic.
-----------------
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq? 

A: Yes, I am aware.
--------------------
Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?

A: Prudence, policy, responsibility to American citizens, and mission dictate that the U.S. Army is always planning for the "next war." Such planning is essential for American security. This is not intended to mean that a "next war" is inevitable or desirable.
---------------------
6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else? 

A: The specific "investigations" I would have liked to have been done (statistically valid number of bioassay samples for DU analysis from returning soldiers as part of demobilization) were not done. 

"ZERO" is not a scientifically valid result for measuring DU in urine and I do expect something else. I expect DU results for almost all returning soldiers likely would be reported as less than minimum detectable concentration (MDC) with the MDC as a very small value.
---------------------

Bob C


-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:18 PM
To: bobcherry at satx.rr.com; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov. Lingle

Bob, (and RADSAFErs)

I am not able to understand your message because of several reasons. My comment is strictly scientific and I hope that nobody dares to defame and ridicule it as "anti-US"!!!!! Furtheron everybody is invited to look at the RADSAFE archives and to read my harsh criticism of those anti-DU freaks and groups distributing all kind of unscientific and ridiculous s..t. 

Point by point:

1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Great Britain, Poland, Italy, African countries, Japan, Denmark, Spain etc. etc.? I hope that this is simply a matter of common speaking in the USA ("our troops", "our heroes") as distributed in mass media. 

2) The idea to investigate the possible uptake of DU is not your "copyright". I would call it "common sense" and it has been researched and published since long. (Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?)

3) The question of DU, its uptake, its (non existing) hazards have been discussed extensively on RADSAFE, so a search in its archives would reveal a lot of links from where to retrieve informations about DU contamination, uptake and discussions about (non existing) health consequences. Most of them originate in the USA. 

4) As far as I remember from the discussions on RADSAFE mentioned above, there has been done a very large number of studies, which would answer your questions, though much was done on those victims of "friendly fire" and others with DU fragments in their body. Again - you may find it in the RADSAFE archives. 

5) After the "warlike" operations in the Balkan, where also DU weapons were used several studies were conducted to screen military personnel for DU uptake and also for possible contamination of drinking water, food etc. I know for sure about three studies, concerning body burden, one for Italian soldiers, another one for Swedish ones and a third, comprehensive one about the impact of DU by the IAEA. There might be many more. They included of course body burden. I am sorry - you started the discussion by claiming that no investigations of uptake was available, so please search for the reports in the net yourself. 

6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else? As long as the topic is of political interest for some groups it will be rolling - whatever those funny and silly scientists may say. 

7) What you claim in your message has been done since long, the results are available, but it is politically not opportune to take any reasonable conclusion.
 
8) To repeat again my often sent message to RADSAFE: Nuclear Power (and DU) is not a matter of science, but of politics.

Best wishes,

Franz  


Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag von bobcherry at satx.rr.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2007 16:23
An: Roger Helbig
Cc: radsafelist
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov. Lingle

As a scientist and as a military officer while on active duty, I stated my opinion for the record that the only way to prove that our soldiers (other than those hit by "friendly" fire) are not uptaking DU in significant (or even measurable) quantities is to make the measurements. 
As Army Radiation Safety Officer before I retired in 2001, I recommended to the Army Medical Department that it should set up a program for the next war to take a statistically valid number of samples from returning soldiers to demonstrate the uptake or lack thereof of DU.  (Do not ask me what happened following my recommendation. I do not know, but other military Radsafers
may.)
Therefore, I have no objection to States deciding to look for DU uptake. as long as: 
(1) The samples are taken under appropriate controls to prevent cheating.
(2) The States send their samples to a reputable and appropriately accredited radiological laboratory that includes a proper QA/QC program.
If the States do so, I am confident that they will discover what I have always believed: Uptake of DU by our soldiers is not occurring to any significant degree (with the exceptions noted above). If my hypothesis is refuted, I will accept it.
But if the States send their samples to an ad hoc laboratory set up by activists, such as the one that almost always finds DU whenever and wherever it looks for it, I will not trust the laboratory results nor any conclusions drawn from them.
Bottom line: If these studies are done properly, the anti-DU activists will regret asking for them. Some of them may even fall off their gravy train, but from what I have seen and heard from them I think both of these outcomes are improbable.
Significant downsides are the waste of time, efforts,and resources that would be better applied in other areas for our war veterans, the anxiety that these veterans might feel, and the veterans' mistrust and loss of pride in war service that the activists' false and self-serving allegations have caused. But properly done experiments always trump theories. These State measurements, properly done, ought to put the DU health issue to rest.
Bob C



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