[ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov.Lingle

Brennan, Mike (DOH) Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV
Thu Apr 12 16:45:15 CDT 2007


I think the only way you could distinguish U-Nat from DU in urine would be by looking at the U238 to U235 ratio, which could present some challenges considering the sample size.  If you are looking for DU in soil you could use the U238-U235 ratio or, if you can argue that thorium is not mobile in the soil, Th234 to Th230 ratio.  The advantage of using thorium is that they should be in equilibrium in old rocks and soil where there is only U-Nat, but there should be almost no Th230 if all the U is DU.  Of course, it would be almost impossible to show that there is NO DU against a background of U-Nat.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf Of John R Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:11 AM
To: Bob Cherry; 'Franz Schönhofer'; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov.Lingle

Bob et al

As an ex "bioassayist", I know that U-Nat will be measureable in most, if not all, urine sample. I don't think that DU would be distinguishable U-Nat.

John
***************
John R Johnson, PhD
CEO, IDIAS, Inc.
Vancouver, B. C.
Canada
(604) 222-9840
idias at interchange.ubc.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Cherry" <bobcherry at satx.rr.com>
To: "'Franz Schönhofer'" <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>; "'Roger Helbig'" 
<rhelbig at california.com>
Cc: "'radsafelist'" <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov. Lingle


Franz,

Thank you for interest. Responding to questions:
----------
1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?

A: My note was limited in scope to the topic of DU in American service members. The topic involves a DU bill in Hawaii for Hawaiian war veterans.
My concerns about soldiers of other nations and civilians are not relevant to the topic.
-----------------
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq?

A: Yes, I am aware.
--------------------
Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?

A: Prudence, policy, responsibility to American citizens, and mission dictate that the U.S. Army is always planning for the "next war." Such planning is essential for American security. This is not intended to mean that a "next war" is inevitable or desirable.
---------------------
6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else?

A: The specific "investigations" I would have liked to have been done (statistically valid number of bioassay samples for DU analysis from returning soldiers as part of demobilization) were not done.

"ZERO" is not a scientifically valid result for measuring DU in urine and I do expect something else. I expect DU results for almost all returning soldiers likely would be reported as less than minimum detectable concentration (MDC) with the MDC as a very small value.
---------------------

Bob C


-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:18 PM
To: bobcherry at satx.rr.com; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov. Lingle

Bob, (and RADSAFErs)

I am not able to understand your message because of several reasons. My comment is strictly scientific and I hope that nobody dares to defame and ridicule it as "anti-US"!!!!! Furtheron everybody is invited to look at the RADSAFE archives and to read my harsh criticism of those anti-DU freaks and groups distributing all kind of unscientific and ridiculous s..t.

Point by point:

1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Great Britain, Poland, Italy, African countries, Japan, Denmark, Spain etc. etc.? I hope that this is simply a matter of common speaking in the USA ("our troops", "our heroes") as distributed in mass media.

2) The idea to investigate the possible uptake of DU is not your "copyright". I would call it "common sense" and it has been researched and published since long. (Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?)

3) The question of DU, its uptake, its (non existing) hazards have been discussed extensively on RADSAFE, so a search in its archives would reveal a lot of links from where to retrieve informations about DU contamination, uptake and discussions about (non existing) health consequences. Most of them originate in the USA.

4) As far as I remember from the discussions on RADSAFE mentioned above, there has been done a very large number of studies, which would answer your questions, though much was done on those victims of "friendly fire" and others with DU fragments in their body. Again - you may find it in the RADSAFE archives.

5) After the "warlike" operations in the Balkan, where also DU weapons were used several studies were conducted to screen military personnel for DU uptake and also for possible contamination of drinking water, food etc. I know for sure about three studies, concerning body burden, one for Italian soldiers, another one for Swedish ones and a third, comprehensive one about the impact of DU by the IAEA. There might be many more. They included of course body burden. I am sorry - you started the discussion by claiming that no investigations of uptake was available, so please search for the reports in the net yourself.

6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else? As long as the topic is of political interest for some groups it will be rolling - whatever those funny and silly scientists may say.

7) What you claim in your message has been done since long, the results are available, but it is politically not opportune to take any reasonable conclusion.

8) To repeat again my often sent message to RADSAFE: Nuclear Power (and DU) is not a matter of science, but of politics.

Best wishes,

Franz


Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag von bobcherry at satx.rr.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2007 16:23
An: Roger Helbig
Cc: radsafelist
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov. Lingle

As a scientist and as a military officer while on active duty, I stated my opinion for the record that the only way to prove that our soldiers (other than those hit by "friendly" fire) are not uptaking DU in significant (or even measurable) quantities is to make the measurements.
As Army Radiation Safety Officer before I retired in 2001, I recommended to the Army Medical Department that it should set up a program for the next war to take a statistically valid number of samples from returning soldiers to demonstrate the uptake or lack thereof of DU.  (Do not ask me what happened following my recommendation. I do not know, but other military Radsafers
may.)
Therefore, I have no objection to States deciding to look for DU uptake. as long as:
(1) The samples are taken under appropriate controls to prevent cheating.
(2) The States send their samples to a reputable and appropriately accredited radiological laboratory that includes a proper QA/QC program.
If the States do so, I am confident that they will discover what I have always believed: Uptake of DU by our soldiers is not occurring to any significant degree (with the exceptions noted above). If my hypothesis is refuted, I will accept it.
But if the States send their samples to an ad hoc laboratory set up by activists, such as the one that almost always finds DU whenever and wherever it looks for it, I will not trust the laboratory results nor any conclusions drawn from them.
Bottom line: If these studies are done properly, the anti-DU activists will regret asking for them. Some of them may even fall off their gravy train, but from what I have seen and heard from them I think both of these outcomes are improbable.
Significant downsides are the waste of time, efforts,and resources that would be better applied in other areas for our war veterans, the anxiety that these veterans might feel, and the veterans' mistrust and loss of pride in war service that the activists' false and self-serving allegations have caused. But properly done experiments always trump theories. These State measurements, properly done, ought to put the DU health issue to rest.
Bob C



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