[ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New challenge:Gov.Lingle

[Dan W McCarn]

Bob, John et al:
Lieber Franz:

Remembering that U234 is preferentially leached from uranium-bearing
minerals in groundwater, U238/U234 disequilibrium may occur in nature under
weakly-leached conditions*.

Is there a database somewhere of the distribution of U238/U234 values in
ground waters?

Thanks and Glückauf!

Dan ii

Dan W McCarn, Geologist
Albuquerque & Houston (and sometimes Leoben)

* As mentioned some months ago, alpha recoil during the decay of U238 to
Th234, Pa234, and eventually U234 causes dislocation of the mineral
structure allowing the U234 to be preferentially leached from the surface.
Under strong leaching conditions, the isotope ratios will be the natural
isotope ratios.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf
Of John R Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 13:11
To: Bob Cherry; 'Franz Schönhofer'; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New
challenge:Gov.Lingle

Bob et al

As an ex "bioassayist", I know that U-Nat will be measureable in most, if 
not all, urine sample. I don't think that DU would be distinguishable U-Nat.

John
***************
John R Johnson, PhD
CEO, IDIAS, Inc.
Vancouver, B. C.
Canada
(604) 222-9840
idias at interchange.ubc.ca

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Cherry" <bobcherry at satx.rr.com>
To: "'Franz Schönhofer'" <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>; "'Roger Helbig'" 
<rhelbig at california.com>
Cc: "'radsafelist'" <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New 
challenge:Gov. Lingle


Franz,

Thank you for interest. Responding to questions:
----------
1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned
with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?

A: My note was limited in scope to the topic of DU in American service
members. The topic involves a DU bill in Hawaii for Hawaiian war veterans.
My concerns about soldiers of other nations and civilians are not relevant
to the topic.
-----------------
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the
Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq?

A: Yes, I am aware.
--------------------
Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?

A: Prudence, policy, responsibility to American citizens, and mission
dictate that the U.S. Army is always planning for the "next war." Such
planning is essential for American security. This is not intended to mean
that a "next war" is inevitable or desirable.
---------------------
6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been
done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else?

A: The specific "investigations" I would have liked to have been done
(statistically valid number of bioassay samples for DU analysis from
returning soldiers as part of demobilization) were not done.

"ZERO" is not a scientifically valid result for measuring DU in urine and I
do expect something else. I expect DU results for almost all returning
soldiers likely would be reported as less than minimum detectable
concentration (MDC) with the MDC as a very small value.
---------------------

Bob C


-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:18 PM
To: bobcherry at satx.rr.com; 'Roger Helbig'
Cc: 'radsafelist'
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New
challenge:Gov. Lingle

Bob, (and RADSAFErs)

I am not able to understand your message because of several reasons. My
comment is strictly scientific and I hope that nobody dares to defame and
ridicule it as "anti-US"!!!!! Furtheron everybody is invited to look at the
RADSAFE archives and to read my harsh criticism of those anti-DU freaks and
groups distributing all kind of unscientific and ridiculous s..t.

Point by point:

1) You write: "...to prove that our soldiers....". Are you not concerned
with soldiers of other nations, not to talk about the civilian population?
Are you not aware that soldiers of other nations served and serve in the
Balkan, in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Great Britain, Poland, Italy, African
countries, Japan, Denmark, Spain etc. etc.? I hope that this is simply a
matter of common speaking in the USA ("our troops", "our heroes") as
distributed in mass media.

2) The idea to investigate the possible uptake of DU is not your
"copyright". I would call it "common sense" and it has been researched and
published since long. (Your wording "setting up a program for the next war"
seems to indicate that you expected already then the next one?)

3) The question of DU, its uptake, its (non existing) hazards have been
discussed extensively on RADSAFE, so a search in its archives would reveal a
lot of links from where to retrieve informations about DU contamination,
uptake and discussions about (non existing) health consequences. Most of
them originate in the USA.

4) As far as I remember from the discussions on RADSAFE mentioned above,
there has been done a very large number of studies, which would answer your
questions, though much was done on those victims of "friendly fire" and
others with DU fragments in their body. Again - you may find it in the
RADSAFE archives.

5) After the "warlike" operations in the Balkan, where also DU weapons were
used several studies were conducted to screen military personnel for DU
uptake and also for possible contamination of drinking water, food etc. I
know for sure about three studies, concerning body burden, one for Italian
soldiers, another one for Swedish ones and a third, comprehensive one about
the impact of DU by the IAEA. There might be many more. They included of
course body burden. I am sorry - you started the discussion by claiming that
no investigations of uptake was available, so please search for the reports
in the net yourself.

6) So all these investigations which you claim to be done, have already been
done. What was the result?  Z E R O !

Did you expect anything else? As long as the topic is of political interest
for some groups it will be rolling - whatever those funny and silly
scientists may say.

7) What you claim in your message has been done since long, the results are
available, but it is politically not opportune to take any reasonable
conclusion.

8) To repeat again my often sent message to RADSAFE: Nuclear Power (and DU)
is not a matter of science, but of politics.

Best wishes,

Franz


Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag
von bobcherry at satx.rr.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2007 16:23
An: Roger Helbig
Cc: radsafelist
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fw: [NoMoreDU] Fw: DU bill PASSED!! New
challenge:Gov. Lingle

As a scientist and as a military officer while on active duty, I stated my
opinion for the record that the only way to prove that our soldiers (other
than those hit by "friendly" fire) are not uptaking DU in significant (or
even measurable) quantities is to make the measurements.
As Army Radiation Safety Officer before I retired in 2001, I recommended to
the Army Medical Department that it should set up a program for the next war
to take a statistically valid number of samples from returning soldiers to
demonstrate the uptake or lack thereof of DU.  (Do not ask me what happened
following my recommendation. I do not know, but other military Radsafers
may.)
Therefore, I have no objection to States deciding to look for DU uptake. as
long as:
(1) The samples are taken under appropriate controls to prevent cheating.
(2) The States send their samples to a reputable and appropriately
accredited radiological laboratory that includes a proper QA/QC program.
If the States do so, I am confident that they will discover what I have
always believed: Uptake of DU by our soldiers is not occurring to any
significant degree (with the exceptions noted above). If my hypothesis is
refuted, I will accept it.
But if the States send their samples to an ad hoc laboratory set up by
activists, such as the one that almost always finds DU whenever and wherever
it looks for it, I will not trust the laboratory results nor any conclusions
drawn from them.
Bottom line: If these studies are done properly, the anti-DU activists will
regret asking for them. Some of them may even fall off their gravy train,
but from what I have seen and heard from them I think both of these outcomes
are improbable.
Significant downsides are the waste of time, efforts,and resources that
would be better applied in other areas for our war veterans, the anxiety
that these veterans might feel, and the veterans' mistrust and loss of pride
in war service that the activists' false and self-serving allegations have
caused. But properly done experiments always trump theories. These State
measurements, properly done, ought to put the DU health issue to rest.
Bob C



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