[ RadSafe ] Re: Radiation Hormesis

John R Johnson idias at interchange.ubc.ca
Fri Dec 28 17:31:23 CST 2007

Steven et al

I've enjoyed this discussion, but I haven't seen any indication that the 
risk of cancer to individuals depends on an individual's genes. The ICRP and 
NCRP dose vs risk numbers are for the most sensitive individual, not the 

John R Johnson, PhD
4535 West 9th Ave
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V6R 2E2, Canada
(604) 222-9840
idias at interchange.ubc.ca

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Dapra" <sjd at swcp.com>
To: "John Jacobus" <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>; <radsafe at radlab.nl>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re: Radiation Hormesis

> Dec. 28
>         To back up a little ways, perhaps we should keep in mind that even 
> if hormesis were proven to be false that would not mean that low level 
> exposure to any specific substance (or to radiation) is harmful.
>         Salutary exposure, harmless exposure, and harmful exposure are 
> three separate and distinct topics.  I haven't been keeping records, but I 
> think that too often discussions of whether or not an exposure is harmless 
> slide off into an argument about hormesis.
> Steven Dapra
> At 08:42 AM 12/28/07 -0800, John Jacobus wrote:
>>If one does not believe there are problems with using small animal models 
>>(mice and rats) for chemical testing of effects in humans, should consider 
>>that approximately 80% of the drug responses seen in such animals do not 
>>lead to effective results in humans.
>>But the issue is not effects in one species over another.  It has to do 
>>with safety in humans.  Only about 15% of a regulator ruling is based on 
>>the science.  The rest is the politics.
>>Steven Dapra <sjd at swcp.com> wrote:
>>Dec. 27
>>Yes, don't we all love those eminent scientists. Okay, enough on
>>that front.
>>". . . proof that a substance, which had been recognized as
>>carcinogenic in animals, actually causes cancer in man would require in
>>most cases extemely complex and lengthy epidemiologic studies. In many
>>cases, it may be impossible to obtain such proof because of the complexity
>>of controls that would be needed for a satisfactory
>>demonstration. Therefore, the only prudent course of action at the present
>>state of our knowlege is to assume that chemicals which are carcinogenic 
>>animals could also be so in man, although the direct demonstration in man
>>is lacking."
>>The citation is: Umberto Saffiotti, "The Laboratory Approach to
>>the Identification of Environmental Carcinogens," in Proceedings of the
>>Ninth Canadian Cancer Research Conference 1971, edited by P. G. 
>>(University of Toronto Press, 1972), pp. 23-26; cited in Federal Register
>>42:192 (October 4, 1977): 54152. I am quoting from "The Apocalyptics
>>Cancer and the Big Lie," by Edith Efron (Simon and Schuster, 1984). Efron
>>quotes Saffiotti on p. 87.
>>Sure, I'll grant you that was 1971 --- 36 years ago and a lot has
>>changed since then. Or has it? Are we any closer to knowing *for certain*
>>whether nor not it is possible to extrapolate from carcinogenicity in
>>animals to carcinogenicity in humans?
>>To further complicate matters, according to Efron, cats, dogs,
>>rats, mice, and hamsters get cancer from 2-acetylaminofluorene; but guinea
>>pigs, lemmings, and the cotton rat do not. And it goes on and on. See pp.
>>198-190 of Efron for more examples of selective carcinogenicity. She gives
>>citations for everything, citing to the scientific literature, or to
>>government reports on carcinogenicity.
>>Steven Dapra
>>At 09:18 PM 12/27/07 -0500, BLHamrick at aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >And, I'm sure it comes as no surprise that anti-everythings also argue 
>> >just
>> >the opposite (of what Floyd noted below) about animal studies when it 
>> >suits
>> >them.
>> >
>> >Just a couple of weeks ago (December 18, 2007), there was a very 
>> >sensible
>> >editorial in the LA Times about the ongoing uproar regarding phthalates 
>> >in
>> >plastics ("Stop Scaring Us"). The author was roundly attacked in
>> >three letters
>> >(published December 23, 2007). (One from the eminent scientist Senator
>> >Diane
>> >Feinstein - said with tongue firmly in cheek). And, of course, one of 
>> >the
>> >criticisms was that the columnist had dared to suggest that because
>> >phthalates
>> >cause cancer in rats, it doesn't necessarily mean it will cause it in
>> humans.
>> >
>> >The letter to the editor stated, "[The columnist] repeats the old saw 
>> >that
>> >rats have different metabolism than people. So he'd rather test people?
>> >Animal
>> >testing to predict risks posed to humans by toxic substances is a
>> >well-established principle that provides the basis for the nation's
>> >fundamental cancer
>> >policy and a host of laws seeking to protect us against this deadly 
>> >disease.
>> >If a chemical can induce tumors in mice, we are not immune."
>> >
>> >The problem I have with the anti-everythings (aside from the 
>> >cherry-picking)
>> >is they seem to be quite willing to make any argument, even to the point
>> >where they may make two completely inconsistent arguments depending on
>> >the day
>> >of the week (or the audience), to support their agenda.
>> >
>> >Barbara L. Hamrick
>> >
>> >In a message dated 12/27/2007 11:10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>> >Floyd.Flanigan at nmcco.com writes:
>> >
>> >I am a firm supporter of Hormesis but with all of the other
>> >environmental influences which can mask most true expressions of the
>> >Hormetic Effect, I fear it will be a very long time before we see such a
>> >study. I suppose it could be conducted on lab animals, but no matter
>> >what evidence was produced, the nay-sayers would find their way back to
>> >the fact that humans have a different physiology than the test subjects.
>> >
>>"If history teaches any lesson it is that no nation has an inherent right 
>>to greatness. Greatness has to be earned and continually re-earned."
>>- Norman Augustine, Chairman of the National Academies Committee
>>-- John
>>John Jacobus, MS
>>Certified Health Physicist
>>e-mail: crispy_bird at yahoo.com
>>Looking for last minute shopping deals? 
>>them fast with Yahoo! Search.
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