[ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak (UNCLASSIFIED)

Thu Mar 8 14:23:43 CST 2007

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 
Caveats: NONE

Franz,

Instead of calming down?  I though we were done with this discussion. And I moved it off-line so the rest of RADSAF would not be subjected to it.  It appears you moved it back on-line.  I hope this is our last exchange, and if not, the last one on-line.  My apologies to the RADSAF community.

Anyway, I of course disagee with what you have written below or I never would have entered this dialogue with you.  But if you are so innocent as you say you are, then you will have no difficulty meeting my challenge to you to communicate with us all on RADSAF for 1 year without making any personal insults or political jabs. We will be watching, and I sincerely hope you succeed.  But you are already off to a bad start.  Your stating in the message below on a public forum that "very few of James Salsman's comments are interesting" is a mild example of the kind of unprovoked personal jabs I am talking about.  It achieve nothing constructive, and only poisions the waters.    

Mike

A word is dead when it is said, some say. I say, it just begins to live that day. Emily Dickenson 

-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at] 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:04 PM
To: Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO); RADSAFE
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak (UNCLASSIFIED)

Mr. Borisky,

Instead of calming down you obviously intend to escalate this discussion.
Sorry I will not satisfy your claim for escalation. 

I think I have never started any controversial discussion - if so, please provide evidence. I have (not) always reacted to insults and provocations from outside, but I think this is my right to do so.

I am not the center of every conflict on RADSAFE. I have since long refrained to participate in the discussion on the messages of Howard Long, though I sometimes send him a friendly message, nor James Salsman - though I hope that he does not get to much frustrated, because only a few (really only a very few!) of his comments are interesting. What you call "conflict"
is in my opinion "discussion".

If you dislike my comments, you are cordially asked to take the most simple countermeasure - namely to block messages from me. Marcel has suggested it in his message. I am happy about Marcels decision to stop this incredible discussion. 

Though: Best regards,

Franz  

Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO) [mailto:mborisky at arl.army.mil]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 06. März 2007 14:16
An: Franz Schönhofer
Betreff: RE: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Franz,

You provide more of the same, as I expected.  Only you would introduce terms like "hateful" and "banning" and "personal non grata" into this discussion - uncalled for escalation and drama.  If you saw the error of your ways, then you would have stopped your insults and provocation long ago and not be the center of every conflict on RADSAF.  With your knowledge of statistics, ask yourself how likely it is that you are at the center of nearly all RADSAF conflicts, and then ask yourself how likely this is due to chance.  Think about it.  It is you Franz, what you say, and how you say it.  BE NICE!  I have a challenge for you, see if you can communicate with us on RADSAF for 1
year without making any personal insults or political jabs.   

Mike   

-----Original Message-----
From: Franz Schönhofer [mailto:franz.schoenhofer at chello.at]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 4:58 PM
To: Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO); 'John Jacobus'; radsafe at radlab.nl; 'J.
J. Rozental (J. J. Rozental)'
Subject: AW: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Mike, or Mr. Borisky or Mr. Civ.ARL/ADLO,

Your first message seemed to me to be a polite one and therefore I had intended to give a detailed answer. Excuse that in the meantime I took advantage of the sunny weather to walk outside. Now I have found two messages I can only classify as hateful. So I answer only very short to your points, without any unnecessary politeness.

I only react to messages on RADSAFE, I never raise any "hateful" comments myself. I do not endorse banning somebody from the list, though in my opinion one could consider it for a person using Nazi-speak, who insists on using it again and again. From his recent posts I could draw the conclusion that he uses the term of "Uebermenschen" for another countries population. 

Your claim that I raise conflicts and use tactics (??) and spread obvious and subtle anti-US sentiments is ridiculous like everything you write in this context - do you yourself believe in it? My comments on Mr. Perle have been well founded and in context with the most recent discussion I have clearly declared that he is a persona non grata for me and that I will not react any more to his insults. 

You are a good example of US persons neglecting anything which occurs outside the USA - and in the context of opposition to wars even neglecting the US public opinion. Believe me, that there is to my knowledge no country in Europe, not to talk about other parts of the world, which would mentally support the Iraq war. 

Whether you like my comments after I have been rather more than less being provocated is your personal opinion. But to claim "in the name of ....."
that I should be banned from the list is probably understandable from the point of view that you are a member of the US military. 

I have been very happy to receive via RADSAFE the opinions of other RADSAFErs, which clearly support my opinion. Even more I have been happy about the many messages received by me personally, though it is not a good sign that people seem not to dare to expose their opinion openly. I still have excellent contacts to my US friends and collegues. 

Best regards,

Franz

Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO) [mailto:mborisky at arl.army.mil]
Gesendet: Montag, 05. März 2007 19:39
An: John Jacobus; Franz "Schönhofer; radsafe at radlab.nl; J. J. Rozental (J.
J. Rozental)
Betreff: RE: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

John,

Thanks!  In my view, this is an extreme case.  I didn't expect to have to endure political insults and needling on RADSAF.  I consider us a family of professionals, and I don't like seeing my colleagues insulted and instigated into unnecessary conflict.  List-owner please help.

Mike  

-----Original Message-----
From: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:57 PM
To: Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO); Franz "Schönhofer; radsafe at radlab.nl; J. J. Rozental (J. J. Rozental)
Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Mike,
If you have any problems with Freanz's posting I suggest you correspond with him, or use the delete key.  Only the List-owner can refuse to let individuals post on this list server.

We have been down this road before, and will probably come up again.
Censorship is only imposed in extreme cases.  I hope even Sandy would agree.

--- "Borisky, Michael (Civ, ARL/ADLO)"
<mborisky at arl.army.mil> wrote:

> Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
> 
> Franz,
> 
> I request once again that you "knock it off".  You are in my opinion 
> the only person on this list serve that makes inappropriate postings 
> and creates problems.  You seem to thrive on and enjoy conflict, and 
> you use subtle and obvious techniques to
> generate it.    Seems you are constantly looking for
> opportunities to make postings with obvious or subtle anti-US 
> sentiments.  I can assure you there are other quiet RADSAF members 
> besides me that recognize your strategies and motives and don't 
> appreciate it.  I would recommend that you eliminate your kind sign 
> offs with any reference to "kind regards" or "respect" as I, and 
> venture to say others, see them as completely disingenuous.  "Be nice"
> or please take your conflict elsewhere.  And please leave Sandy and 
> everyone else alone and don't instigate them into your arena of 
> conflict and negativity.  I am actually surprised that the moderator 
> allows you to continue posting.
> 
> Mike Borisky
> Army Research Lab
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On Behalf Of Franz Schönhofer
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:55 PM
> To: 'John Jacobus'; radsafe at radlab.nl; J. J.
> Rozental (J. J. Rozental)
> Subject: [ RadSafe ] X-Rays Scan Bodies, Mr. Perles Nazi speak
> 
> Since I got tired of the subject I have not reacted to any message on 
> that subject since a long time, but what I yesterday read in the 
> discussion between John and Mr. Perle motivated me to plan to react 
> tomorrow, because what is distributed by Mr. Perle is just 
> hairraising. But his two last messages are so unacceptable that I 
> write this comment now. All attempts to intimitate me and ridicule me 
> are in vain, because such a character like Mr.
> Perle cannot insult me. John, you know that I always have esteemed 
> your contributions I understand (I do not understand questions of 
> epidemiology and similar ones). Now I have to congratulate you, 
> because until now you are obviously the only US-citizen on RADSAFE to 
> speak out clearly against this paranoid "safety thinking", which seems 
> to be only used to intimitade people, subject them to humiliation 
> (been shown naked on screens) and to undermine the human rights and of 
> course to raise the profit of quite a few companies claiming that they 
> manufacture instruments and devices for "safety". I know more than 
> well, that these are not only my thoughts, but these are the thoughts 
> of many million US-citizens and influential groups.
> Practically all of my US-friends and collegues are among them.
> 
> So much now, but the main reason that I have not waited until 
> tomorrow, is, that Mr. Perle used the expression "sub-human" before 
> and even insisted on these words in his latest contribution. This is 
> clearly Nazi-Speak - in German "Untermenschen", a label given by 
> Nazi-Germany to non-arian people like all Slavs, including Russians, 
> Ukrainians, Poles, Czech, Slovenians, Serbs, Montenegrinians etc.
> etc., the Romas (gypsies), Arabs and especially Jews. (It is 
> intersting that the Romas are genuine Arians.) I do not expect that 
> Mr. Perle has ever been to Auschwitz or Majdanek or any of the other 
> Nazi-extinction camps, where "sub-humans" were killed daily by the 
> thousands or rather tens of thousands like insects by using hydrogen 
> cyanide. I have been there and therefore I am more than allergic for 
> such words.
> 
> Now I ask whether RADSAFE is the right place to use Nazi-speak. 
> Another US citizen has been banned many years ago from the list, 
> because he was calling an international organisation for "Gestapo". It 
> seems that this expression throws a light on Mr. Perles character.
> More light I'll shed on him and his queer opinions tomorrow (like "he" 
> wants to be safe on flights and therefore everybody else has to 
> undergo humiliating procedures, not raising at all safety and 
> security).
> 
> It is half past midnight and again I will go to sleep. The most recent 
> attempt to insult me by Mr.
> Perle on 15 Feb. is ridiculous: I will not take an aspirin, because I 
> take it everyday in the morning according to my doctors advice. I do 
> not take something called "Luvox". I do not even know what it is, but 
> this only confirms that Mr. Perle is of the opinion that everybody in 
> this world should know US-brandnames and in a broader view succumb to 
> any US interest and request. Since I might concede that Mr. Perle 
> might be aware, that an Austrian does not know "Luvox" I take the 
> alternative conclusion that he was writing this for the US-market of 
> his company.
> 
> Again, John, my deepest respect. Mr. Perle, please never adress me 
> personally again.
> 
> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
> MinRat i.R.
> Habicherg. 31/7
> A-1160 Wien/Vienna
> AUSTRIA
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] Im Auftrag von Sandy Perle
> Gesendet: Freitag, 02. März 2007 23:18
> An: John Jacobus; radsafe at radlab.nl
> Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [ RadSafe ] New Airport X-Rays Scan Bodies, Not 
> Just Bags
> 
> John,
> 
> Re-read my comment ... I said that the 9/11 were sub-human. They still 
> are in my opinion..
> 
> Sandy
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Jacobus <crispy_bird at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:56:56
> To:Sandy Perle <sandyfl at cox.net>, radsafe at radlab.nl
> Subject: RE: AW: AW: [ RadSafe ] New Airport X-Rays Scan Bodies, Not 
> Just Bags
> 
> Wasn't the hijackings on Sept. 11 first thought to be like kidnapping 
> the plane to fly to another country?
> Again, you are framing the issue as if our current round of terrorist 
> is unique.  It is not.  Our solution has certainly not changed the 
> risks we face.
> We are just trying to build higher fences.
> 
> I would add that your comment that the 19 hijackers of Sept 11 were 
> not subhuman.  Maybe that is the problem with Americans looking at the 
> problems in the Middle East and other areas.  They many not have 
> shared your beliefs, but your comments do remind me of the U.S.'s view 
> of the Japanese during WWII.
> They were subhuman also.  Times change.
> 
> 
> --- Sandy Perle <sandyfl at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > John,
> > 
> > One can't compare terrorism to the 60s where a
> person simply got on a
> > plane with a gun where there was no security check
> performed. It
> > wasn't until much later that metal detectors were
> implemented and
> > x-ray checking of carry-on.
> > Heck, wasn't that long ago that that checked bags
> were X-rayed. The
> > terrorist of the 60s didn't want to kill
> themselves .. and that reason
> > was also blown up on 9/11 where 19 sub-humans
> preferred to die along
> > with the thousands of innocents that they
> murdered. You can't compare
> > apples and oranges.
> > 
> > Sandy
> > 
> >
> 

+++++++++++++++++++
"We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only 6 percent of the world's population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind; that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity; and therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
-- John F. Kennedy 

-- John
John Jacobus, MS
Certified Health Physicist
e-mail:  crispy_bird at yahoo.com

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