[ RadSafe ] RE: extremism

Fri Mar 23 12:40:56 CDT 2007

Yes, I was hesitant about using it as a source. However, it does look 
impressive and you can always have some skepticism regarding the source. 
Compare this to geocraft.com which Steven Dapra submitted as a reference 
with no info on the purpose or explanation of the website. However since 
then I found the following:

http://www.nsc.org/EHC/climate/ccucla6.htm

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/296/5568/665

http://usasearch.gov/search?input-form=simple-firstgov&v%3Aproject=firstgov&query=water+vapor+global+warming&affiliate=noaa.gov

Bob

At 12:22 PM 3/23/2007, Johnston, Thomas wrote:
>There was an interesting segment on national network news about several
>major colleges prohibiting the use of Wikipedia as a reference for any
>college work. Just a note to pass along. Buyer, er, Reader Beware.
>But I am sure most of you know not to trust all online sources
>already...
>
>Tom
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl] On
>Behalf Of Bob Casparius
>Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 10:04 AM
>To: Steven Dapra; radsafe at radlab.nl
>Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] RE: extremism
>
>Steven,
>
>This is from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
>
>Water vapor is a naturally occurring greenhouse gas and accounts for the
>
>largest percentage of the greenhouse effect. Water vapor concentrations
>fluctuate regionally, but human activity does not directly affect water
>vapor concentrations except at very local scales.
>
>In <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Climate_model>climate models an
>increase in atmospheric temperature caused by the greenhouse effect due
>to
>anthropogenic gases will in turn lead to an increase in the water vapor
>content of the troposphere, with approximately constant
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Relative_humidity>relative humidity.
>
>The increased water vapor in turn leads to an increase in the greenhouse
>
>effect and thus a further increase in temperature; the increase in
>temperature leads to still further increase in atmospheric water vapor;
>and
>the feedback cycle continues until equilibrium is reached. Thus water
>vapor
>acts as a positive feedback to the forcing provided by human-released
>greenhouse gases such as CO2<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#_note-7>[9]
>(but
>has never, so far, acted on Earth as part of a runaway feedback).
>Changes
>in water vapor may also have indirect effects via cloud formation.
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_C
>hange>Intergovernmental
>Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/IPCC_Third_Assessment_Report>IPCC
>Third
>Assessment Report chapter lead author
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Michael_Mann_%28scientist%29>Michael
>
>Mann considers citing "the role of water vapor as a greenhouse gas" to
>be
>"extremely misleading" as water vapor can not be controlled by
>humans.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#_note-8>[10]<http://en.wikipedia.o
>rg/wiki/#_note-9>[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#_note-10>[12]
>The IPCC report has discussed water vapor feedback in more
>detail.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#_note-11>[13]
>
>Bob
>
>
>At 09:26 PM 3/22/2007, Steven Dapra wrote:
> >March 22
> >
> >         My thanks to Bob Casparius for posting this very clear NCDC
> > explanation of the role of water vapor, accompanied by the explanation
>of
> > what we *do not* know.
> >
> >         So there is no confusion or uncertainty on anyone's part, that
>
> > link I offered was not to my site, nor do I necessarily accept
>everything
> > that was said on the site. (See the end of Bob's posting.)       I do
>not
> > know if the site was promoting coal or not and can't comment on
> > that.  Bob suggested that the site might be biased in its discussion
>of
> > global warming and his suggestion may well be true, I don't know.  It
> > cannot be said often enough that *everyone* has a bias, and we might
>do
> > well to keep that in mind.  With respect to strip mining, it may not
>be a
> > pretty sight, however it has nothing to do with global warming.  The
> > UMTRA project left us with some rather large tailings piles.  I know
>some
> > of that is from bomb production, however some of it is from reactor
>fuel
> > too -- at least I assume it is.  I could stand to be corrected on that
>point.
> >
> >Steven Dapra
> >sjd at swcp.com
> >
> >
> >
> >At 02:57 PM 3/22/07 -0400, Bob Casparius wrote:
> >>The National Climate Data Center [NCDC] even says that any increase in
>
> >>water vapor in the atmosphere is due to increases in atmospheric
> >>temperature. Therefore, the increased atmospheric temperature must be
>due
> >>to something other than increased water vapor. And if there is
>increased
> >>water vapor in the atmosphere it is due to increased atmospheric temp.
> >>
> >>The following is from http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html
> >>
> >>"Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere,
>which
> >>is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its
>concentration
> >>is also considered to be a result of climate feedbacks related to the
> >>warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result of
> >>industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved is
> >>critically important to projecting future climate change, but as yet
>is
> >>still fairly poorly measured and understood.
> >>
> >>As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated
>from
> >>ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the air is
> >>warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the air is
>able
> >>to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more water vapor in
>the
> >>atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher concentration of water
>vapor
> >>is then able to absorb more thermal IR energy radiated from the Earth,
>
> >>thus further warming the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere can then
>hold
> >>more water vapor and so on and so on. This is referred to as a
>'positive
> >>feedback loop'. However, huge scientific uncertainty exists in
>defining
> >>the extent and importance of this feedback loop. As water vapor
>increases
> >>in the atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into
>clouds,
> >>which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing
>
> >>less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up). The future
> >>monitoring of atmospheric processes involving water vapor will be
> >>critical to fully understand the feedbacks in the climate system
>leading
> >>to global climate change. As yet, though the basics of the
>hydrological
> >>cycle are fairly well understood, we have very little comprehension of
>
> >>the complexity of the feedback loops. Also, while we have good
> >>atmospheric measurements of other key greenhouse gases such as carbon
> >>dioxide and methane, we have poor measurements of global water vapor,
>so
> >>it is not certain by how much atmospheric concentrations have risen in
>
> >>recent decades or centuries, though satellite measurements, combined
>with
> >>balloon data and some in-situ ground measurements indicate generally
> >>positive trends in global water vapor."
> >>
> >>The website: http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html
> >>
> >>That Steven Dapra sites appears to be promoting coal as an energy
>source,
> >>which is another source of CO2 when burned. This makes you wonder if
>they
> >>are not bias in their presentation of global warming. Check out the
> >>discussion of strip mining:
> >>
> >>http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/StripMiner.html
> >>
> >>Bob
> >
> >[edit]
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >
> >Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>
> >the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> >http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
> >
> >For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> >visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/
>
>Robert Casparius
>Radiation Safety Officer
>AECOM
>Department of Environmental Health & Safety
>x2243
>
>http://www.aecom.yu.edu/ehs/Secondary%20Sites/AE_Radiation.htm
>_______________________________________________
>You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
>Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
>the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
>http://radlab.nl/radsafe/radsaferules.html
>
>For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
>visit: http://radlab.nl/radsafe/

Robert Casparius
Radiation Safety Officer
AECOM
Department of Environmental Health & Safety
x2243

http://www.aecom.yu.edu/ehs/Secondary%20Sites/AE_Radiation.htm