[ RadSafe ] uranium smoke is a teratogen

[Cindy Bloom]

Please note that the previous article (although I think this was only an 
abstract?) posted by Roy did not state that premature births cause birth 
defects, rather it stated that premature births were associated with birth 
defects.  I am not an expert in this area, but personally I would be quite 
surprised if follow-up studies would show that premature births would be 
the cause of defects;  it seems much more likely that the reverse would be 
true, i.e., that defects would cause premature births.  In fact, this 
latter statement is often made to comfort those whose pre-term pregnancies 
do not result in liveborn births.

Regarding the subject line, it seems that what many are forgetting is that 
there is usually some minimum dosage required for a teratogenic effect to 
occur.  Also it's my sense that the word, teratogen, implies that an 
exposure is to an embryo or fetus in utero.  Exposure prior to conception 
might result in genetic effects, but these would not be considered 
teratogenic effects.  This brings me to the questions of how many in utero 
exposures to uranium "smoke" (or other uranium forms mentioned in other 
studies) have been considered in the cited studies, and how this 
information was collected.  I find it a little hard to believe that the 
studies cited so far have looked at uranium "smoke" dosages in utero or 
even have determined that in utero exposures to uranium "smoke" were likely 
to have occurred.  And if these studies have not looked at the question of 
uranium "smoke" exposure and dosage, it's doubtful that any meaningful 
conclusions regarding causation can be established.  (I also don't believe 
that that a study can look only at the uranium dosage in utero to determine 
causation; consideration must also be given to confounding factors, e.g., 
age, diet, etc.)

While I have found this thread to be very educational (but not so much on 
the topics of teratogenesis and causation), I think that the more recent 
notes have drifted off the hypothetical subject, "uranium smoke is a 
teratogen."  But perhaps that's why I feel I have learned so much.
:-)

Back to lurking,

Cindy

P.S. Link regarding teratogenis, 
http://www.pandorawordbox.com/overview.php?id=27

At 12:43 PM 5/24/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>James,       >anthrax vaccine:  both combat and non-combat cohorts were 
>given mandatory vaccination.        What does the above statement have to 
>do at all with the civilian birth defect rate in Basra?  If the above 
>statement is in regards to US combat and non-combat soldiers, what does it 
>have to do with your presumed increase in birth defects due to 
>uranium?  If in fact the anthrax vaccine were somehow responsible for an 
>increase in birth defects, couldn't it's effects mask other causes of 
>birth defects in relatively small population study groups?  The most 
>recent article that I posted regarding birth defects spoke of studying 
>millions of US births before establishing that premature birth was a cause 
>of birth defects.  It is an unfortunate fact that often time that larger 
>studies can lead to results that would otherwise be missed in smaller 
>studies.  I suspect that may well be the case with the sand that has a low 
>level of uranium.  The undoubtedly large quantity of sand/lead/uranium 
>isn't a homogeneous mixture, in other words no one
>  blends a whole mountain of this material into a uniform mixture before 
> sampling.  If they had blended the sand there would have probable had 
> been a dilution effect that may well have caused the lead and uranium 
> content to be below levels of regulatory concern (this whole issue may 
> have in fact had more to do with politics than regulations).  At any 
> rate, just because they missed the uranium on the sampling doesn't mean 
> that the uranium wasn't actually there all this time. >poor 
> nutrition:  results primarily in closure of the neural tube and related 
> birth defects, not the same broad spectrum of birth defects which are 
> produced by any genotoxin that accumulates in stem cells        See 
> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-05/uoo-ooc052308.php. There 
> is much we don't know, and despite your absolute certainty about the 
> cause of birth defects the science in still in the process of being 
> investigated.   >As for immunodeficiency, it's not explained by anything 
> else, either. >Same for cognitive defects.       No explanation, and yet 
> you know the answer?  Is it possible that you've already made up your 
> mind to the cause and have all along been fishing for effects to fit your 
> already concluded answer?  Is this the Scientific process?     Open your 
> mind to the possibility that the people with whom you are corresponding 
> are being genuine and helpful.  Roy Herren ----- Original Message ---- 
> From: James Salsman <jsalsman at gmail.com> To: ROY HERREN 
> <royherren2005 at yahoo.com> Cc: radsafelist <radsafe at radlab.nl>; Steven 
> Dapra <sjd at swcp.com>; "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" <Mike.Brennan at doh.wa.gov>; 
> Dan W McCarn <hotgreenchile at gmail.com> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 4:24:41 
> PM Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] uranium smoke is a teratogen Roy, What you 
> have written is not true:  all other reasons have been eliminated. 
> anthrax vaccine:  both combat and non-combat cohorts were given mandatory 
> vaccination. bad living conditions:  increases miscarriage rate, but not 
> birth defect rate poor nutrition:  results primarily in closure of the 
> neural tube and related birth defects, not the same broad spectrum of 
> birth defects which are produced by any genotoxin that accumulates in 
> stem cells As for immunodeficiency, it's not explained by anything else, 
> either. Same for cognitive defects. James On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 3:54 
> PM, ROY HERREN <royherren2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> James/Ben are you 
> asserting that only your postulated teratogenic >> effects of uranium 
> could possible account for any increase in birth >> defects in Basra? > > 
> James/Ben response "Yes". > James, > >  "When you have eliminated the 
> impossible, whatever remains, however > improbable, must be the truth."- 
> Arthur Conan Doyle >  Many well intentioned folks have assisted you in 
> eliminating the > impossible about your argument, the remains of what 
> have been pointed out to > you by these well intentioned folks, however 
> improbable to you, is most > likely the truth. > > Roy Herren > > ----- 
> Original Message ---- > From: James Salsman <jsalsman at gmail.com> > To: 
> radsafelist <radsafe at radlab.nl>; Steven Dapra <sjd at swcp.com>; ROY 
> HERREN > <royherren2005 at yahoo.com>; "Brennan, Mike (DOH)" 
> <Mike.Brennan at doh.wa.gov>; > Dan W McCarn <hotgreenchile at gmail.com> > 
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 1:24:00 PM > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] uranium 
> smoke is a teratogen > > Mike, Steve, Roy, and Dan, thank you for your 
> messages. > > Mike Brennan wrote, regarding reports of impossibly low 
> uranium levels > and lead levels > four times more than allowed by the 
> EPA for un-notified transport in > sand from Camp > Doha, Kuwait: > >> 
> Contrast for what? > > The Camp Doha fire involved weapons with both 
> uranium and lead in > them. If that is > where the lead came from 
> (Kuwaiti sand is usually not that rich in > lead) then it is very > 
> likely that uranium levels were above the background levels, not to 
> mention > the > levels reported to have been stated by the spokesman for 
> the American > Ecology > company in Idaho where the sand is now. > >>> 
> "There turned out to be more birth defects from anthrax vaccine than 
> I >>> had been believing..." >> >> So, the error that comes to your mind 
> is that you thought the American >> Military was Evil for one 
> unsubstantiated reason, but you decided it was >> Evil for a different 
> unsubstantiated reason? > > While I agree that a 200% increase in birth 
> defects in females is > certainly evil, > especially since it occurs off 
> the battlefield and therefore is contrary to > the > laws of war, uranium 
> is not ruled out as the culprit because both the combat > and non-combat 
> cohorts between whom the increase was measured were both > immunized 
> against anthrax as part of an Army "no exceptions" policy. > > In 
> response to Steven Dapra, I wrote: > >>> Steven, you are confusing 
> "major" congenital abnormalities (which require >>> hospitalization) as 
> reported in the Kuwaiti paper with "significant" >>> (defects >>> which 
> in most U.S. states must be reported to the parents) which number >>> far 
> more. The U.S. Navy's Birth and Infant Health Registry, and Dr. Han >>> 
> Kang >>> of the Veterans Administration divide birth defects in to two 
> categories: >>> "moderate to severe," which is the same as "significant 
> to major," as the >>> terms are used above, and "minor," which covers all 
> other detectable >>> birth defects. >> >> I am not confusing anything, 
> thank you very much.  I am also not >> going to get into some futile 
> hair-splitting argument about "major" versus >> "significant." > > If you 
> don't want to use the terminology that the people studying the > 
> increase > use, then the discussion will be less valuable. > >>>> See 
> also http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18008151 -- >>>> 
> immunodeficiencies >>>> were not nearly as prevalent in Kuwait in 1990, 
> and were are not talking >>>> about anything transmissible (yet?) >>> >>> 
> (Abstract posted at ncbi) >>> >>>  J. Clin. Immunol. 2008 Mar; 
> 28(2):186-93. >>> "Primary immunodeficiency disorders in kuwait: first 
> report from kuwait >>> national primary immunodeficiency registry 
> (2004-2006)." >>>  [by] Al-Herz, W. >>> >>> Allergy & Clinical Immunology 
> Unit, Pediatrics Department, Al-Sabah >>> Hospital, Kuwait city, 
> Kuwait. >>> >>> ... Ninety-eight percent of the patients presented in 
> childhood.... >> >> That figure is about 80% than the average in OECD 
> countries. > > Another mistake on my part; please substitute "of" for 
> "than". > >>>>> The prevalence of these disorders in children was 11.98 
> in 100,000 >>>>> children with an incidence of 10.06 in 100,000 
> children.... >>>>> >>>>> That's 20-45% more than in OECD 
> countries. >>>> >>>> What is this supposed to prove? >>> >>> They used 
> not to have anywhere near that many immunodeficiency, >>> and they are 
> getting so much in kids. >> >> What is this supposed to mean?  First you 
> talk about DU, then >> lead, now it's immunodeficiency. > > Both uranium 
> and lead exposure cause increased levels of chromosome > dicentricities 
> and other aberrations.  However, lead doesn't burn or corrode > like 
> uranium, so there is less of it soluble and less of it proportionally > 
> entering drinking water supplies. > >>> where do you think they get their 
> drinking water from? >> >>... wells.  They don't wring it out of 
> dirt. > > In fact the rain water travels through dirt.  Aquifers have 
> dissolved > minerals > from above, not below. > >>> I would far rather be 
> a nut than be accused of supporting terrorists! >> >> If you, James/Ben, 
> are suggesting that I support terrorists, or that >> anyone on RADSAFE 
> supports terrorists, you are committing a gross >> slander. > > I am 
> not.  And it would be libel, not slander.  Perhaps you do not remember, > 
> but another member of Radsafe said I was.  I hope everyone understands 
> how > easy it is to feel touchy about these things. > >> What are some of 
> these alleged "numerous unanswered questions" that >> go back for a 
> decade? > > You almost asked two yourself, one which has been studied and 
> will be > answered when Roy Guilmette publishes his data, I 
> believe. > >>  we first must know what that dose is.... > > That is one 
> of the questions.  The other is how much damage different doses > do, 
> which you refer to below.  It has not been studied on more than three > 
> species of mammals. > >>...  The reason I have not "bothered" to read 
> Domingo is that IT IS >> NOT AVAILABLE TO ME. > > You are willing to put 
> in hours arguing, but not interested in the subject > enough to put down 
> $31.50 at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0890-6238(01)00181-2 > or fill out 
> an inter-library loan? > >> James/Ben are you asserting that only your 
> postulated teratogenic >> effects of uranium could possible account for 
> any increase in birth >> defects in Basra? > > Yes. > >> Can you admit to 
> the possibility that there are somethings that one can't >> know? > > 
> Yes; I recommend the book, "On What We Know We Don't Know" by > Sylvian 
> Bromberger (University of Chicago Press, 1992): > > 
> http://cslipublications.stanford.edu/bromberger-corpus/On-What-We-Know-We-Dont-Know.pdf  
>  > >>> If you want to rule uranium out, isn't in your interest to call on 
> your >>> colleagues, associates, and the scientific community at large 
> to >>> quantify the precise amount of reproductive damage uranyl exposure 
> does >>> to >>> many different kinds of mammals at many different 
> dosages? >> >> Doing this quantification would be difficult, extremely 
> expensive, >> and would probably serve no purpose. > > It would be less 
> expensive than searching for new large hadrons. > Which has the potential 
> to be more beneficial to human health? > The cost is in the $500,000 
> range. > > Roy Herren wrote: > >>... the "truth" about your hunch in 
> unknowable. > > Further empirical study can bring the 95% confidence 
> interval above zero. > > Dan McCarn wrote: > >> I have no interest in 
> driving the uranium thing forward at all.  There are >> too many other 
> important factors that deserve objective review.... > > Which is 
> consistent with science:  Examining all of the factors, or only > those 
> which you feel are deserving of review? > >>... the Romanian experience 
> with birth defects.... Ditto Croatia. > > What was the increase in those 
> places?  Was the geographic distribution > even, lopsided, or consistent 
> with point sources? > >> I suspect that you will find little or no 
> contribution by uranium at all >> in Iraq.... >> No renal enzymes, no 
> trace of DU, nothing in the general population > > That would still be 
> consistent with an acute exposure years ago.  Kidneys > heal after uranyl 
> exposure.  White blood cells and germ cells do not. > >> the fate and 
> transport mechanisms that drive uranium that I've outlined >> and the 
> very, very tiny contribution > > Is that after accounting for the 
> difference between a third of Iraq and the > ~25,000 km^2 area that DU 
> weapons were used in? > > Even if it is, why are you opposed to emperical 
> experiments which, if you > were correct, would prove you right? > >>... 
> 0) Geographic locations away from populations; 1) transfer to soil; >> 2) 
> buildup; 3) transfer to plant; 4) Transfer to groundwater, 5) 
> Transport >> and 6) transfer to animals / humans through a multi-pathway 
> manner. > > Wouldn't essentially all of of the soluble uranium be in the 
> water table > after > a few rains?  Except for that which was plowed 
> under for agricultural use? > >> Why aren't people living in higher 
> radiation environments subject to these >> same effects? > > Radiation 
> has practically nothing to do with it.  The chemical toxicity of > 
> uranium is a million times more hazardous than its radiation, 
> per: >  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12121782 > "...chemical 
> generation of hydroxyl radicals was calculated to exceed the > radiolytic 
> generation by one million-fold...." > >> I also noticed in the Basrah 
> paper no reference to any other potential >> known >> factors but only 
> examined radiation: "presumably due to exposure of >> pregnant >> women 
> to radiation which exceeds 3000 mrads[1]." > > Is that figure due to the 
> internal dose of alphas being greater than > external? > >> When I worked 
> on the Yucca Mountain Site Characterization report, an >> enormous effort 
> was taken to validate.... > > Do the people of Iraq deserve as much 
> accuracy? > > James Salsman, writing as Ben Fore > >
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