[ RadSafe ] Re: Global Warming US EPA accepts CO2 as a pollutant now.

Mon Dec 7 14:35:33 CST 2009

Chris --

Good point. EPA has, at least to this point, seen fit not to declare water vapor a "pollutant" as it has CO2, even though the staunchest advocates of anthropogenic climate change would agree that water vapor is a far more effective "greenhouse gas" than CO2, methane, etc.

As for computer modeling, a respected PhD colleague of mine (who shall remain nameless) had the following to say about computer models: "What answer do you want?"

All computer models are, by their very nature, wrong -- it's simply a matter of how significantly and in what direction. One can posit that the better the data feeding the models, or the higher quality the data the models are trying to match, the more likely the results are to approximate reality -- but when both the motives and actions of those constructing the models and collecting / disseminating the data are (or appear to be) suspect, then one has to use tremendously large error bars when interpreting model results.

My $0.02 worth ...

Jim

>>> <chris.hofmeyr at webmail.co.za> 12/7/2009 14:58 >>>
Prof Parthasarathy,Jim Hardeman,
Possibly you could clarify whether this 'US EPA now accepts carbon dioxide
as a pollutant' is conditional. It would be extremely strange if not.
1. What about plant metabolism requirements?
2. Prof Raabe assures us the concentration is too low for a significant
greenhouse effect.
3. What about water vapour, which is way more effective as a greenhouse
gas?  Also a pollutant?
I have an uneasy feeling about modeling the effect of CO2 against the
backdrop of such a strong confounder like water vapour.
It is a problem vaguely reminiscent of determining the contribution to
lung cancer of normal radon concentrations against a backdrop of smoking
and other air pollutants

Regards,
Chris Hofmeyr
chris.hofmeyr at webmail.co.za 

parthasarathy k s wrote
> US EPA now accepts carbon dioxide as a pollutant.
>
> regards
> Parthasarathy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jim Hardeman <Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us>
> To: "radsafe at radlab.nl" <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Sent: Mon, 7 December, 2009 5:39:07
> Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Re: Global Warming
>
> Sandy et al. --
>
> It has yet to be demonstrated to my satisfaction that carbon dioxide
meets
> the definition of "pollutant".
>
> Jim Hardeman
> jim.hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us 
>
>>>> "Perle, Sandy" <SPerle at mirion.com> 12/6/2009 18:33 >>>
> Ed,
>
> All true. My point is simply that regardless of what these individuals
say, we've known for years that pollutants spewed out into the
environment
> is harmful. There have been efforts to reduce auto emissions for decades
in areas of CA and other states, well before it became popular to
discuss
> global warming. The reason that was the case, and is still the case, is
because pollutants harm individuals. The only difference now is the these
> same pollutants may be accelerating the effect on the environment, thus,
global warming. While these individuals may promote and in some cases
benefit from the global warming debate, and may not be in favor of nuclear
> power, that doesn't diminish the fact that pollutants damage the
environment and people, and animals for that matter, and we should be
doing something about that, and not attack any effort because of what some
> politician or other persons may say about global warming, whichever side
of the argument that are on.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------- Sander
C. Perle
> President
> Mirion Technologies
> Dosimetry Services Division
> 2652 McGaw Avenue
> Irvine, CA 92614
> +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office)
> +1 (949) 296-1144 (Fax)
>
> Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ 
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edmond Baratta [mailto:edmond0033 at comcast.net] 
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 3:23 PM
> To: Perle, Sandy; radsafe at radlab.nl 
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re: Global Warming
>
> Sander
>
> What you say may be true.  However, it seems that when the 'esteem' PM
Brown
> of the UK calls those who oppose his 'religion' and are called like the
'flat-earthers' and other nasty names.  Also, the Senator from CA
(Boxer)
> calls those revealing the E-Mails (also bad name) of the pseudo
scientist
> caught 'fixing' the data, one wonders what is really going on.  Gore has
made hundreds of millions of dollars on this 'religion', He also
received
> the Nobel Prize (lost some luster on the Peace Prizes latest awarder)
and
> an
> Oscar for a made up movie.   None of them are for Nuclear Power, which
would
> not contribute to pollution, Carbon Dioxide or other.
>
> Ed Baratta
>
> edmond0033 at comcast.net 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Perle, Sandy" <SPerle at mirion.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 11:21 AM
> To: <radsafe at radlab.nl>
> Subject: RE: [ RadSafe ] Re: Global Warming
>
>> It is a fact that we are seeing the effects of global warming. They are
real and I can't believe that anyone would not recognize there are
problems in the environment and living things. The question as I see it is
>> how much of this is due to man-made or natural causes. All of it could
be
>> blamed on natural evolution through time. We've had the ice age and
we've
>> seen other naturally occurring events through history. I also believe
that
>> we humans are putting a lot of pollutants into the environment. Whether
or
>> not this causes global warming, to whatever degree, isn't the issue in
my
>> mind. What is the issue is whether or not these pollutants are good for
mankind or not. I don't believe they are. I also agree that significant
extreme measures should not be initiated without more evidence that we
need to take that measure. However, I do believe that we should take
moderate measures as appropriate. This is not an all or nothing
situation.
>> This is simply the logical process that should be followed. An analogy
would be taking medical supplements to prevent or minimize the effect of
>> some illness or potential disease. In many case we don't have all the
evidence whether or not there is a beneficial effect, yet we don't simply
>> throw away the supplement since there is 100% proof of benefit. It's
simply a matter of using common sense and logic in the decision making
process. Therefore, we should take appropriate steps to minimize the
effects of the causative factors and where there is more evidence that is
>> sound and can be supported, more extensive measures could be initiated.
---------------------------------------------------------------- Sander C.
Perle
>> President
>> Mirion Technologies
>> Dosimetry Services Division
>> 2652 McGaw Avenue
>> Irvine, CA 92614
>> +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office)
>> +1 (949) 296-1144 (Fax)
>> Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/ 
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