[ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
Howard
howard.long at comcast.net
Tue Jun 21 21:38:31 CDT 2011
"Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation: a Perspective for Japan" By Sir Samurai TD Luckey PhD has just been published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons and can be downloaded from www.jpands.org summer 2011.
Howard Long
On Jun 21, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Jaro Franta <jaro-10kbq at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Dear Dan,
>
> I remember you posted a similar message about your Chernobyl experience some
> time ago (last year?).
>
> First-hand data like that is invaluable and much appreciated.
>
> As for Busby's claims about Chernobyl, I suppose he might say that you will
> die before the age of 150, therefore you will be another one of the
> thousands of victims of Chernobyl radiation.
>
> And if no scientific journal will publish that BS, he'll simply create one.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jaro
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Dan W McCarn
> Sent: June-21-11 6:32 PM
> To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList'
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> Dear Sandy:
>
> In the two years (1995-1996) that I worked at the Sosny Labs / Chernobyl
> Exclusion Zone in Belarus, I received only 80% of the total gamma dose that
> my kids received living in Albuquerque... Based on continuous TLD
> measurements with my control dosimeter at my house in Albuquerque.
>
> Dan ii
>
> --
> Dan W McCarn, Geologist
> 108 Sherwood Blvd
> Los Alamos, NM 87544-3425
> +1-505-672-2014 (Home – New Mexico)
> +1-505-670-8123 (Mobile - New Mexico)
> HotGreenChile at gmail.com (Private email) HotGreenChile at gmail dot com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 14:42
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I particularly am amused at this paragraph from Yablokov:
>
>
>
> "During the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor, only 1.5 percent of
> the available fuel there got into the atmosphere. Only 1.5% - and the whole
> northern hemisphere suffered. About 500 million people received an increased
> and in some places lethal dose of radiation. Even now, each year thousands
> of deaths occur because of the radiation sickness caused by the ingress of
> radiation. A person falls ill even from the very small doses just above
> background radiation..."
>
>
>
> 1. 500 million people exposed and many potential lethal dose!
>
> 2. each year thousands of deaths occur because of the radiation
> sickness caused by the ingress of radiation!
>
> 3. Most notably this comment, "A person falls ill even from the very
> small doses just above background radiation..."
>
>
>
> Really? By this statement I would assume almost 100% the world's population
> would be ill if the small dose just above background causes illness. What
> about geographical areas where a person can receive 50 mSv/yr background?
> What about all of the medical procedures, the highest opportunity for
> collective as well as individual dose? These statements from Yblokov mean he
> has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. He is just another Ralph
> Nader and the rest of those who really believe that one photon can cause
> radiation illness.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Sander C. Perle
>
> President
>
> Mirion Technologies
>
> Dosimetry Services Division
>
> 2652 McGaw Avenue
>
> Irvine, CA 92614
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>
> +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office)
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>
> Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/
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>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:45 PM
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List;
> The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, so far on the basis of death toll, you will excuse me if I say
> Chernobyl outweighs all of these by orders of magnitude. I know you guys
> think only a few firemen died, but this isnt so.. Alexey Yablokov is right.
> Gogman calculated 980,000 in 1990. All the studies have been done. Here is
> my paper on the issue.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Jeff Terry
>
> Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 23:24
>
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> Well, if we are using radiation related fatalities to date as the metric in
> Fukushima, we cannot leave out:
>
>
>
> "Jackass" co-star dies in car crash in Pennsylvania as its one fatality
> exceeds the radiation tally in Fukushima.
>
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-rt-us-jackass-dunntre75j4u2-
> 20110620,0,5962651.story
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote:
>
>
>
>> Here are some from Wikipedia. I am not saying these are the biggest, as
> they only cover a brief slice of time, are mostly Northern Hemisphere, and
> are mostly catastrophic events, as opposed to long term health crushers like
> Black Lung Disease (so if you are going to say, "but Fukushima potentially
> will have long term effects," I suspect I could come up with 10 of those
> without much problem, too.)
>
>>
>
>> December 3, 1984: The Bhopal disaster. Estimates of its death toll range
> from 4,000 to 20,000. The disaster caused the region's human and animal
> populations severe health problems to the present.
>
>>
>
>> April 16, 1947: Texas City Disaster, Texas. A minimum of 578 people lost
> their lives and another 3,500 were injured as the blast shattered windows
> from as far away as 25 mi (40 km). Large steel pieces were thrown more than
> a mile from the dock. The origin of the explosion was fire in the cargo on
> board the ship. Detonation of 3,200 tons of ammonium nitrate fertilizer
> aboard the Grandcamp led to further explosions and fires.
>
>>
>
>> 1932-1968: The Minamata disaster was caused by the dumping of mercury
> compounds in Minamata Bay, Japan. The Chisso Corporation, a fertilizer and
> later petrochemical company, was found responsible for polluting the bay for
> 37 years. It is estimated that over 3,000 people suffered various
> deformities, severe mercury poisoning symptoms or death from what became
> known as Minamata disease.
>
>>
>
>> August, 1975 The Banqiao Dam flooded in the Henan Province of China due to
> extraordinarily heavy rains, killing over 26,000
>
>>
>
>> April 26, 1986: Chernobyl disaster. At the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant
> in Prypiat, Ukraine a test on reactor number four goes out of control,
> resulting in a nuclear meltdown. The ensuing steam explosion and fire killed
> up to 50 people with estimates that there may be between 4,000 and several
> hundred thousand additional cancer deaths over time. Fallout could be
> detected as far away as Canada. The Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, covering
> portions of Belarus and Ukraine surrounding Prypiat, remains poisoned and
> mostly uninhabited. Prypiat itself was totally evacuated and remains as a
> ghost town.
>
>>
>
>> January 15, 1919: The Boston Molasses Disaster. A large molasses tank
> burst and a wave of molasses rushed through the streets at an estimated 35
> mph (56 km/h), killing 21 and injuring 150. The event has entered local
> folklore, and residents claim that on hot summer days the area still smells
> of molasses.
>
>>
>
>> March 25, 1911: Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City. This
> was a major industrial disaster in the U.S., causing the death of more than
> one hundred garment workers who either died in the fire or jumped to their
> deaths.
>
>>
>
>> March 10, 1906: Courrières mine disaster in Courrières, France. 1,099
> workers died, including children, in the worst mine accident ever in Europe.
>
>>
>
>> October 21, 1966: Aberfan disaster was a catastrophic collapse of a
> colliery spoil-tip that occurred in the Welsh village of Aberfan, killing
> 116 children and 28 adults.
>
>>
>
>> September 21, 2001: Toulouse, France. An explosion at the AZF fertilizer
> factory killed 29 and injured 2,500. Extensive structural damage to nearby
> neighbourhoods.
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
>
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:39 PM
>
>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> What industrial catastrophes are bigger than Fukushima?
>
>> I cant think of one. But maybe there is one. Certainly not 9.
>
>> I mean Industrial right. Not earthquakes and stuff like that.
>
>> If we call the atmospheric tests an industrial catastrophe then that one
> certainly.
>
>> Also the use of uranium weapons in GW2.
>
>> But thats probably not as bad in terms of health effects as Fukushima will
> be. You wait.
>
>> Chris Busby
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH)
>
>> Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 21:35
>
>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>>
>
>> While I don't choose to guess at the amount of activity released at either
> Chernobyl or Fukushima beyond "a whole hell of a lot", I don't think I agree
> that Fukushima has or will result in "higher collective exposure". Firstly,
> there was some hours between the end of criticality and the beginning of
> release at Fukushima. This means that many of the isotopes with the
> shortest half-lives had enough time to decay away before release began,
> unlike Chernobyl. Second, at Fukushima the first portion of the release,
> which is potentially the hottest, was blown out to sea, as opposed to at
> Chernobyl, where there was inhabited land in every direction (some,
> obviously, more densely inhabited than others).
>
>> Third, a significant portion of the released activity is in water, going
> to the ocean, where the impact on human health will be limited.
>
>>
>
>> I am not for a moment saying that Fukushima isn't a disaster. I am not
> even saying that it is unreasonable to compare it to Chernobyl. Heck, I am
> not even saying that something can't happen and make Fukushima worse than it
> is. However, I don't believe that it is useful to engage in hyperbole.
>
>>
>
>> This morning a concerned citizen sent me an article from Al Jezeera in
> which an activist claimed, "Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe
> in the history of mankind". It certainly is not, and probably isn't in the
> top ten.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
>
>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
>
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:15 AM
>
>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List;
> The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> My estimate is
>
>> Chernobyl
>
>> about 10^19 Bq
>
>> Fukushima about 10^19Bq but more local so density greater and higher
> collective exposure due to Tokyo Hiroshima more difficult, maybe 10^14
> including the Uranium But I agree, not easily comparable with Hiroshima
> since that involved high level prompt gamma and neutrons Chris
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike
>
>> (DOH)
>
>> Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 17:41
>
>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>>
>
>> I am not sure if the question of how much radioactivity was released at
> Hiroshima is a meaningful question, at least when trying to put it in
> perspective with Chernobyl and Fukushima.
>
>>
>
>> There are several reasons for this. The first is that the explosion at
> Hiroshima produced blast and heat that killed people (though not
>
>> everyone) out to a range past where the radiation dose would cause acute
> problems. At Chernobyl the blast killed a few people (I am not sure how
> many), and at Fukushima no one was killed by blast.
>
>>
>
>> Second, at Hiroshima much of the radiation was produced by fission, so
> "curies" isn't an appropriate unit, in much the same way it isn't for
> machine produced radiation. There was a substantial amount of radioactive
> material produced, and there was some exposure to people from the fallout,
> but that wasn't the main source of dose. At Chernobyl a reactor core that
> was (for a brief time) at more than 100% power was blasted into the air,
> then roasted in a graphite fire for days. At Fukushima there was a release
> into the air some hours after criticality ceased, and a large amount of the
> radioactive material has been trapped in water that either went into the
> ocean or is still on site.
>
>>
>
>> Third, the isotope mix of what was released is very different between the
> three. This come into play in that the release of, say, 1,000 Ci of
>
>> I-131 has different consequences than the release of 1,000 Ci of I-129.
>
>> Weapons tend to have a higher percentage of very short half life isotopes,
> reactor fuel that has been use a while has a higher percentage of longer
> half-life isotopes. Also, with reactors the amount of time between the end
> of criticality and the release will impact both the amount of activity and
> the isotope mix.
>
>>
>
>> I bring all this up because it is a natural tendency to ask questions like
> this, then equate "more" with "worse". In this case, I don't think that the
> intentional attacks of Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be
>
>> meaningfully compared to Chernobyl and Fukushima.
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
>
>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Theo Richel
>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:17 AM
>
>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList;
> The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
>> Subject: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>>
>
>> Could anyone please give me some facts on how much radioactivity
>
>> (curies) was released in: Fukushima, Hisoshima, Chernobyl
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Much appreciated
>
>>
>
>> Theo Richel
>
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>
> Well, so far on the basis of death toll, you will excuse me if I say
> Chernobyl outweighs all of these by orders of magnitude. I know you guys
> think only a few firemen died, but you are wrong. Alexey Yablokov is right.
> All the studies have been done. Here is my paper on the issue.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
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