[ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

Mon Mar 7 12:32:13 CST 2011

Franz hi,

Thanks for your second message. It seems that you did not receive my 
original answer which I sent to your personal e-mail address. Now as someone 
else in this list said, you can not win an argument with the garbage people. 
So it is not a matter of measurement. They will turn back anything that 
their monitor detects. The question is if there is legislation or directives 
(greek, European, American or international) that may convince them to see 
reason.
Second, I would be very interested to know who you would not recommend from 
Thessaloniki. I believe that we should know the names of people that are not 
recommended just as we should know the names of people that are recommended. 
We would be safer in this way, and this is the radsafe list....

thanks for all the help

best regards

D.Okkalides
THEAGENEION Anticancer Hospital
Thessaloniki
Greeece

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Franz Schönhofer" <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
To: "'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList'" 
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

Dear Demetrios,

When I read your first request it seemed to me that it was about legal
limits of radionuclide concentrations. Only later I learnt about the
question of door monitors.

Door monitors are not necessarily  (or not at all) calibrated for any
maximum allowed radionuclide activity, not to talk about correction of
geometry factors. Furthermore they are only sensitive for gamma-emitters. Do
you expect perfect radiation protection people there at the monitoring
stations?

I know for sure that there is equipment available to check hospital garbage
on site for radioactivity - check out Canberra, Ortec and others. Secondly
find out what "limits" the communal garbage sites prescribe. Thirdly there
are quite a few standards about disposal of radioactive substances, we have
just finished a week ago an Austrian one. They might of course not apply to
your national regulations!

In case you know Virginia Koulikou she might be able to help. Another person
from Thessaloniki, frequently present at conferences I would not
recommend.......

Best regards,

Franz

Franz Schoenhofer, PhD
MinRat i.R.
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Wien/Vienna
AUSTRIA

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] Im Auftrag von Demetrios
Okkalides
Gesendet: Freitag, 04. März 2011 17:59
An: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
Betreff: Re: [ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

Thanks to all for your contribution. It has been quite helpful.

D.Okkalides
THEAGENEION Anticancer Hospital
Thessaloniki
Greece

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BRISSON Nicolas" <nicolas.brisson at irsn.fr>
To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList"
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

French law allows to treat radioactive waste as normal waste, and to dispose

of them in communal garbage sites under three conditions:
     - radionuclides have a half life of less than 100 days,
     - more than 10 half life have passed since the nuclides were produced,
     - exposure rate (beta and/or gamma) is less than 2 times the background

radiation level.

Nicolas Brisson
IRSN/DEI/SIAR
route du Panorama
92262 FONTENAY AUX ROSES
tel : +33 1-58-35-87-24
por :  +33 6-08-76-55-32

-----Message d'origine-----
De : radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] De la part de ROY HERREN
Envoyé : lundi 28 février 2011 07:17
À : The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Objet : Re: [ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

Mr. Okkalides,

I am unfamiliar with the laws of Greece and as a result unqualified to give
you a specific legal answer. I can tell you though from experience that if
your
local landfill has a landfill radiation detector, usually mounted either at
the
gate or by their truck scale, that they will probable reject anything
detectable. Keep in mind that while their detectors may be fairly sensitive
that they are usually located at least a meter away from the large moving
trucks
hauling the thick steel dumpsters, so whatever radioactive material is in
the
dumpster would have to be fairly "hot" to be detected at a meter from the
exterior of the steel dumpster . Detectable, in my experience, is usually
anything above twice background, and it's unlikely that you can prevail in
an
argument with the folks at the landfill about why they should take your load

if
in your opinion the radiation while detectable is actually under that
statutory
limit. Rejection of a garbage load is a problem for both the garbage company
and for your hospital. The garbage company needs to quickly turn around
their
truck so they will most likely want to dump the load as soon as possible,
and if
your lucky they will dump it somewhere away from the mountain of other
garbage,
and then immediately call you (usually right after they have called your
regulators). If your very unlucky they could bring the load back to your
campus
and dump the load on your campus. Either way your going to be stuck
searching
for the radioactive material in the dumped garbage. This isn't an experience
that one would want to regularly repeat!

The best way to deal with this problem is to avoid having radioactive
material go into your garbage dumpster in the first place. Purchase your own
radiation detectors and mount them near your garbage containers. Train your
staff that if the detectors go off that they are supposed to set the
material
aside and contact you or your staff. That will afford you an opportunity to
find the material before it ends up in the dumpster, avoid dealing with the
folks at the landfill, and having to deal with your regulators when this
issue
is reported to them by the folks at the landfill. All in all, your purchase
of
your own detectors will be a net savings to your hospital. see page 37 of
the
following web page (it's a large catalog so it may take a while for the down
load):
http://www.ludlums.com/images/stories/catalogs/Health%20Physics%20Catalog-We
b.pdf

Roy Herren

________________________________
From: Demetrios Okkalides <od at tlmq.com>
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 6:52:18 AM
Subject: [ RadSafe ] radioactivity in garbage

I am looking for a quote of the maximum exposure rate (not activity) that
hospital (or any) garbage can have on its packaging surface in order to be
permitted to be dumped in communal garbage sites. Can anyone help? I would
appreciate a reference also.

thanks

D.Okkalides
THEAGENEION Anticancer Hospital
Thessaloniki
Greece

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Steinmann" <crsteinmann at gmail.com>
To: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List"
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Cc: "The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List"
<radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] body dose

Otto,

Is 4100 mrem per 3 months of smoking a fact? How many cigarettes does
one have to smoke in 3 months? If you have a source, I would be
interested in the citation.

Thanks

Chris

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Otto G. Raabe <ograabe at ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> At 08:28 PM 2/24/2011, Mark S. Sasser wrote:
>
>> Routine bio assay Measurement Results
>> the results of the subject individual's routine urine measurement in 1987
>> are
>> consistent with those expectedfrom the previously evaluated intakes that
>> occured
>> in 1964 ,1966,1967.
>> in 1986 he was still showing 4100mrem(27% of the standard ). to his lung.
>>
>> my father now 84 years old and we do not know what we should do about
>> what
>> is in
>> his lungs?
>
> ***********************
> Consider these facts:
>
> 4100 mrem is the dose of alpha radiation that just about everyone living
> in
> Colorado gets every year from natural radon decay products in homes.
>
> 4100 mrem is the dose of alpha radiation that a cigarette smoker gets in
> three months from polonium-210.
>
> Neither of these exposures is likely to result in detrimental effects.
> People in Colorado have lower lung cancer rates than in most other States.
>
> Most people don't make it to 84 years of age.
>
> Otto
>
>
> **********************************************
> Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP
> Center for Health & the Environment
> University of California
> One Shields Avenue
> Davis, CA 95616
> E-Mail: ograabe at ucdavis.edu
> Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140
> ***********************************************
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