[ RadSafe ] is uranium genotoxic? (was Re: CBinterviewonenrichedU)
Brennan, Mike (DOH)
Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV
Mon Oct 31 11:00:55 CDT 2011
Sadly, your recommendation, particularly without citing any particular
portion of the book, does little to convince me that the argument
against reason is sound. I say this for two reasons that come quickly
to mind, though there are no doubt others: (1) you have a long history
on this site of citing sources that do not support your argument,
presumably on the expectation that no one will check and (2) you have a
long history on this site of citing sources that are clearly not
reliable, including your own "work".
-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:16 AM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics)
MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] is uranium genotoxic? (was Re:
CBinterviewonenrichedU)
You should read a book called "The battle of Fallujah" cited in the
paper
C
-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike
(DOH)
Sent: Fri 28/10/2011 16:53
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] is uranium genotoxic? (was Re: CB
interviewonenrichedU)
What would be the point in using something like that at Fallujah? To
the best of my knowledge, the fighting was mostly in residential areas,
of houses made of ordinary building materials (mostly concrete block,
from what I could see. There would be no reason to use some
super-secret advanced bunker-busting weapon. Even conventional armor
piercing projectiles would be of less value in that kind of environment,
as they would pass right through the target building, leaving relatively
neat holes front and back, with matching holes in non-targets down
range. Much more desirable from the military's point of view would be
weapons that would enter the target and blow up, killing the people in
the target without doing damage to nearby structures, where your people
might be. Given that the military has many such weapons, and that they
are undoubtedly cheaper that the hypothetical super-secret weapons, it
seems unlikely the military would go with the more expensive, less
effective option, just to give activists something to catch them at.
-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Dapra
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:33 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] is uranium genotoxic? (was Re: CB interview
onenrichedU)
Oct. 27
This is more of Busby's lunacy. (See his message way below.)
Under the heading "The Battle for Fallujah" Busby's paper says:
"CAS (Close Air Support) weapons included AGM-114 Hellfire, AGM-65
Maverick and TOW missiles. These mainly use shaped charge warheads
believed to contain Uranium shaped charge liners (concept identified
in US Patent 4441428 [fn 55]). CAS operations in Fallujah also used
500lb GBU-12, 38 and possibly larger hard target guided bombs e.g.
GBU-24 for hard targets and suspected bunkers. The advanced
penetrator warhead versions of these (BLU-110, 111) use high-density
metal ballast - either tungsten or Uranium [fn 57]." (The footnote
numbers are the ones in Busby's paper.)
For patent 4441428 (fn. 55) go to this link
http://www.patents.com/us-4441428.html
The abstract to the patent reads, "This invention relates to
a new Blasting Device especially adapted to drilling oil and gas
wells, characterized by a shaped charge of explosives, having a liner
of depleted uranium."
According to Busby's lurid fantasy, this "concept" (his
word) of a blasting device to be used for drilling oil and gas wells
was being used as a weapon in Fallujah. You may make of that what you
will.
The device in Busby's footnote 57 is described by this
abstract:
"A target penetrating aerial bomb including a penetrating body shaped
for improved target penetration, having a narrower impact profile at
approximately the same weight as an existing bomb. An aerodynamic
shroud encases the penetrating body and emulates the aerodynamic
shape of the existing bomb, and the weight, center of gravity, and
moments of inertia of the bomb closely approximate those properties
of the existing bomb. The bomb constructed according to the present
invention may be qualified by similarity to the existing bomb, thus
avoiding lengthy and costly qualification procedures."
This bomb is a bunker buster bomb intended for use against
hard targets, and is not a penetrator (anti-tank) weapon for use
against armored vehicles, as Busby correctly says below. Hence,
**technically,** --- and only technically --- Mike Brennan was
incorrect when he mentioned its use against armored vehicles. Note
however that Mike said "presumably mostly against armored
vehicles." **presumably** Not being an expert on this weapon he
didn't know its application.
A Google search for patent 6639977 (in Busby's fn. 57) will
take you to this Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-116
According to the Wikipedia article, some organizations have
linked the BLU-116 bomb to depleted uranium. However, the article
continues, these claims "do not constitute evidence that either
material [tungsten or DU] was used in the actual weapon." The patent
application describes this device as a "shrouded aerial bomb," and
says it can use DU. That doesn't prove anything about its actual use
in Kosovo, or anywhere else.
The patent link is
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,389,977.PN.&OS=
PN/6,389,977&RS=PN/6,389,977
The patent description says DU can be used in the
bomb. Whether or not is has been used, and on what battlefields (if
any), is another matter entirely.
Of course Busby's huffy correction (just below) is
irrelevant and immaterial. The dispute is over the human health
effects of DU, and not whether or not a weapon is an anti-tank
penetrator. As he often does, Busby pitches a fit over a minor or
insignificant error while cleverly ignoring the larger or fundamental
part of the debate. For instance, on Oct. 15, he corrected someone
by saying that he was a Visiting Professor, and not an Visiting
Assistant Professor. He harangued us for over a week to read his
Fallujah hair sample paper. After I posted a critique of his paper
he managed to maintain a thunderous silence.
Steven Dapra
At 03:31 PM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
>Excuse me people. This is not an anti tank penetrator. It is not the
>same weapon. Ok? Its a new weapon. For which patents have been
>found. Cited in the paper. OK? So anti tank arguments are misplaced.
>Chris
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike
(DOH)
>Sent: Thu 27/10/2011 18:47
>To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] is uranium genotoxic? (was Re: CB interview
>onenrichedU)
>
>Upon review of the document that you linked to, the problem becomes
>clear: you don't know what you are talking about, and apparently don't
>understand what you read.
>
>The document you linked to said:
>
>"Isotope analyses to determine the types of uranium present show that
>0.0028 per cent of the uranium in the penetrators is in the form of
>isotope U-236. The presence of U-236 indicates that part of the DU
came
>from reprocessed uranium. This information was provided by one of the
>five laboratories being used by UNEP for its DU assessment work.
>According to the laboratory, the content of U-236 in the depleted
>uranium is so small that the radiotoxicity is not changed compared to
DU
>without U-236. However, the final assessment by UNEP will be made only
>once results from all laboratories are available."
>
>This paragraph says several things.
>
>It says that one of five labs found U-236 in very small amounts,
leaving
>open the question of whether the other labs also found it and hadn't
>reported it, or hadn't found it, which in turn leaves open the question
>of whether U-236 was present only in the samples that went to one lab,
>or if it were missed by the other labs, or if it was identified by
>mistake by the lab that reported it. All are possible.
>
>It also says that the presence of U-236 indicates that part of the
>depleted uranium came from reprocessed uranium. Reprocessed uranium is
>not the same as enriched uranium. Enriched uranium contains a greater
>percentage of U-235 than natural uranium; usually in at least the
>several percent range. This article does not mention U-235, and given
>the tiny, tiny amount of U-236 mentioned, one would expect that it
would
>have come up.
>
>The article also clearly states that the samples were collected in
>Kosovo, where there has never been any doubt that DU munitions were
>used, presumably mostly against armored vehicles, for which it is most
>effective. It's use in Kosovo does not imply its use in Fallujah,
where
>there were no armored vehicles on the insurgent side.
>
>Usually, if I cite something in support of an argument, it has
something
>to do with that argument. Just saying. (Mike Brennan)
[edit]
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