[ RadSafe ] Re; CO2 regulation:

Tue Sep 13 11:45:20 CDT 2011

Mike,

My post was in jest, but your reply makes several good points. For the
record:

1. I live technically in a county island, with the city literally across the
street. The city's sewer line is within 15 feet of my septic tank, but they
require a $35,000.00 hook up fee, so I'm staying on the septic for now,
since it seems to work well.

2. I live in a semi -rural horse community, now surrounded by civilization,
and it is true that some who have recently moved into the area have decided
that they don't care much for flies, nor horse manure, and fervently desire
to rid our community of the horses. No doubt they want to cut down the
trees, put them in a tree museum, and put in a parking lot.

At church this past Sunday our pastor brought back pics from Uganda, where
they don't have a sewer system, just a trench immediately outside their home
which functions as an open sewer, and so you count me as one libertarian who
agrees that Public Health is a legitimate function of government.

Now back to radiation issues. I apologize for hijacking the thread.

Rich 

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike
(DOH)
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:09 AM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re; CO2 regulation:

1.  If you are on septic, as I am, I assume you are not living in a city
core (even if you are within the boundary of a city, as I am), and that your
system functions properly.  If your neighbor had an outhouse up against the
fence, you would complain to the authorities, and there would be authorities
who would take action.  If you found that your employer was moving you to a
site that did not have any restroom facilities, permanent or temporary, you
would complain, and there would be authorities that would listen.  This is
not true in all countries, and those where it is not true suffer for it (I
read recently that many cities in India do not have adequate sewer systems,
and as much as 10% of the potential productivity is lost due to diseases
spread by poor sanitation).

2.  I assume if you rode your horse on the street, you live in a rural area,
and not in a city.  I also assume that your ride for recreation, and not
frequently, and that the number of horses crapping on that road each day is
in the several, not the hundreds, or the many thousands as was once the case
on Manhattan Island.  I also suspect that your horse's crap on the road
annoys someone, and that if there is enough crap on the road something will
be done about it.

Even the Libertarians (most of them, at least) acknowledge that Public
Health is a legitimate function government.  In almost every generation
there are improvements in public health that involve doing things
differently than they were done before, and there are people who resent and
resist the change.  For about a generation, then it becomes the new norm.  

Personally, I believe if we could keep discussions of radiation issues in
the Public Health arena, rather than letting it be dominated by the Free
Market Economystics on one side and the B-Movie-Ecohorror believers on the
other, we would all be better off. 

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Gallego
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 5:19 PM
To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList'
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re; CO2 regulation:

I think I just discovered that I am engaging in criminal behavior...

1. My home is hooked up to a septic tank, not the sewer system.

2. Yesterday I rode my horse, and despite my best efforts, he not only left
horse manure on the street, he urinated as well. I'm admitting that I left
it there, on the road.

):

I'll never be POTUS at this rate.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Brennan, Mike
(DOH)
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 5:03 PM
To: Jerry Cohen; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics)
MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Re; CO2 regulation:

The EPA does set regulations that often seem to go further than is needed,
and are selected without giving the deciding input to those most affected.
I have had disagreements with them, myself.  But as context, consider some
of the burdensome regulations the spiritual and organizational ancestors, in
the US and elsewhere, have forced upon a generally unwilling public:

1) Pretty much all of the laws against urinating and defecating in public.
This led to the huge expense (undoubtedly thought unnecessary by many) of
having sewer systems installed in cities, and REQUIRING homes and businesses
to be connected, whether the owners wanted to be or not.

2) Regulations forbidding horse manure being left on the road.  This
ultimately destroyed the horse drawn delivery industry, in favor of
automobiles.  

3) Regulations forbidding burning coal for heating.  Cleaner sources of heat
are more expensive, unless you include the cost of property damage due to
soot and smog, and people sick and dying because the air was unfit to
breath.  

I remain unconvinced that regulating CO2 will have a detectable impact on
climate change, but as pretty much everything they propose to regulate
(breathing is not included) puts other crap into the air, I will reserve my
scorn for more worthy targets.

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jerry Cohen
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 4:30 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: [ RadSafe ] Re; CO2 regulation:

In regulating CO2, I wonder if EPA wil try to control respiration. I
will not hold my breath until they decide ;-)

________________________________
From: "edmond0033 at comcast.net" <edmond0033 at comcast.net>
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Mon, September 12, 2011 4:06:17 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning

Franz:

Since the USEPA has decided to regulate CO2, and have included Radon and
decay products, your idea to have them cease breathing these gases has been
my answer to this foolishness.  I suggest each day they cease breathing for
an hour.  We have a 'hand and foot' monitor that is in between two doors. If
it's closed long enough it becomes contaminated with Radon and decay
products and indicates it is.  If the door is opened for a few minutes, it
clears the area.

Ed Baratta

edmond0033 at comcast.net

-----Original Message----- From: marco bähler
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 5:12 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning

franz
I happen to have a set of filters in my leadcastle right now and the lead
210 peak is very strong while the other peaks of lead and bismuth, which I
am familiar with, are almost absent. the filters were in a house for one
year.
every once in a while i am surprised on how you get carried away...
marco bähler

Am 12.09.2011 um 20:55 schrieb <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>
<franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>:

> Don't do it!! This is the privilege of our raman-spectroscopist to 
>measure accurately I-131 from Fukushima with secret detectors; to prove 
>core meltdown, radiation doses to the population in the vicinity or 
>probably for a whole country etc. etc.
> 
> Now I switch off the "sarcasm modus": You will find in any airfilters 
>tremendous amounts of short-lived radon daughters if you measure fast
enough.
>Unfortunately there are some natural limitations because of half-lifes 
>to detect Po-210 in air filters.....
> 
> But please do not tell those people about radon and daughters in air 
>and the dose implications, they might start a campain to forbid breathing.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Franz
> 
> 
> ---- Brent Rogers <brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au> schrieb:
>> Mike
>> 
>> Would you consider counting automotive air filters?
>> 
>> <wink>
>> 
>> Brent Rogers
>> Sydney Australia
>> TDY Washington DC
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 12/09/2011, at 12:24, "Brennan, Mike  (DOH)" 
>><Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV>
>>wrote:
>> 
>>> I am glad that my understanding of the situation agrees with Franz's 
>>> opinion, as his expertise is far greater than mine (no irony 
>>> implied; I'm just a sample grabber who reads stuff).  Processing 
>>> Po-210 from radium sources has several non-trivial issues that need 
>>> to be considered.  The first is that the decay product of radium is 
>>> radon, which is a noble gas.  If the radium source is not 
>>> constructed in a way that contains the radium, there will be little 
>>> ingrowth of the isotopes down the chain, including Po-210.  The next 
>>> issue is that if you have a refined radium source, presumably all 
>>> the lead and bismuth and polonium isotopes would have been left 
>>> behind with the slag.  This means the Pb-210 won't come into 
>>> equilibrium for some time (about 140 years, using an old thumb 
>>> rule).  On the bright side, there are radium sources that are that 
>>> old,
but getting them would be a non-trivial challenge).
>>> 
>>> If I were insistent on concentrating Po-210 from "natural" sources, 
>>> as opposed to going the activation route, I would look at 
>>> ventilation filters or liquid dust traps for mines.  Obviously some 
>>> mines would be better for this than others.
>>> 
>>> After all that, you are left with the chemistry, which I've been 
>>> told is trick, especially as the fine powder that results is 
>>> difficult to keep contained (one person said that alpha recoil 
>>> increases the spread of contamination, but I wouldn't know).  I've 
>>> been told that it will crap up a glove box no matter how careful you 
>>> are, and you will never get it clean (until it decays away).
>>> 
>>> All this is easy compared to building a nuclear reactor in order to 
>>> do activation.  On the other hand, if you already have a nuclear 
>>> reactor, and all that neutron flux is just going to waste...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
>>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of 
>>> franz.schoenhofer at chello.at
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 1:21 PM
>>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing 
>>> List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) 
>>> MailingList
>>> Cc: Busby, Chris
>>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning
>>> 
>>> Absurd and lacking any insight in the topic and on reality. Po-210 
>>> is produced commercially as far as I know (almost) exclusively in 
>>> Russian reactors (consult Google). They have enough to spend some to 
>>> the
KGB.
>>> What are "old radium tubes"? Since you have neither knowledge about 
>>> radiation protection or chemistry I wonder where you got the recipe 
>>> for separating Po-210 from radium. Radiumsources usually are not to 
>>> be found on the streets, so where do you get them from? Being a 
>>> radiochemist I would not work with the necessary quantities of 
>>> radium to extract the polonium obviously used in the murder of
Litvinenko.
>>> 
>>> Franz
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---- "Busby schrieb:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes. Interesting. Everyone blamed the Russians because it was said
>>> that only someone with access to a reactor could have put the poison 
>>> together i.e. it was not a amateur job. But it is easy to separate 
>>> Po210 from old radium tubes with nitric acid and baking soda; a 
>>> kitchen job, though you'd have to be jolly careful. I think KGB 
>>> would have far more sophisticated ways of killing someone.
>>>> Chris
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe
>>>> Sent: Sat 9/10/2011 7:38 PM
>>>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
>>> List
>>>> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning
>>>> 
>>>> September 10, 2011
>>>> 
>>>> At London's Millenium Hotel on November 1, 2006, Alexander 
>>>> Litvinenko, a Russian defector, was poisoned  with tea containing a 
>>>> large amount of polonium-210. He fell ill that very day and died 
>>>> after a long hospitalization on November 23. He told investigators 
>>>> that he had met with two former KGB agents early on the day he fell
>>> ill.
>>>> 
>>> --
>>> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
>>> Habicherg. 31/7
>>> A-1160 Vienna
>>> Austria
>>> mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> --
> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
> Habicherg. 31/7
> A-1160 Vienna
> Austria
> mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227
> 
> _______________________________________________
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