[ RadSafe ] potentially combustible helium - say what?

Fri Jan 6 11:30:09 CST 2012

Franz:

We still have those who like to 'scare' the general public.  When one needs 
oxygen, especially in a hospital setting, smoking is not allowed because as 
you said it supports combustion and could cause more damage.

Ed Baratta
edmond0033 at comcast.net

-----Original Message----- 
From: franz.schoenhofer at chello.at
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 6:56 PM
To: Alan Stahler ; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) 
MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] potentially combustible helium - say what?

Alan and RADSAFErs,

I did not react to this absurdity disributed on RADSAFE. - Now I do as a 
chemist: Helium is a rare gas, it only forms chemical compounds under very 
special and extreme conditions with very special elements -they are all 
unstable.

So, helium is under no circumstances combustible. Secondly Oxygen cannot 
burn - it is necessary to initiate or to maintain combustion. How did these 
funny messages make their way to RADSAFE?

What about the scientific qualification about people stating this nonsense? 
It is close to a Raman Spectroscopist on RADSAFE.

Good night!

Franz

---- Alan Stahler <stahler at kvmr.org> schrieb:
> Reading the original article, I can't find a reference to "potentially 
> combustible helium." - Al
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: "Brennan, Mike  (DOH)" <Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV>
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList 
> <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] potentially combustible helium (Article 
> Explained)
>
> I accept the idea that if liquid He was heated to the point where pressure 
> cause it to blow out the container, that would be bad.
>
> I am HIGHLY dubious of the idea that liquid He escaping into a room would 
> liquefy the O2 in the room in a way that makes it more available for 
> combustion than it is as a gas.  In fact, I suspect that the cooling of 
> liquid He would break the combustion triangle (fuel, oxidizer, heat) much 
> more effectively than water would, and the displacement of O2 by He would 
> also interfere with combustion (depending on a number of interesting 
> factors about the location of the fire in comparison to the flasks).
>
> While I agree that fighting a fire in the presence of liquefied inert gas 
> would present exciting challenges and the opportunity for things to go 
> horribly, horribly wrong in new and unexpected ways, and I don't fault the 
> actions of the technician while if not under fire, at least near it, 
> helium still isn't combustible.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu 
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:22 PM
> To: RADSAFE
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] potentially combustible helium (Article 
> Explained)
>
> The article explained it very well - and it was about the potential
> problems of fighting a fire in an MRI unit which were averted by quick
> thinking hospital technician
>
> MRI fire underscores need for education and oversight
> December 30, 2011
>
> By Tim Darragh, Of The Morning Call
>
> ...kept in operation by super-cooled liquid helium and use enormous
> amounts of energy. The liquid helium ? cooled to 450 degrees below
> Fahrenheit...thermos" casing, he said, the liquid helium could have
> escaped, and immediately chilled...
>
> Nancy Run Fire Company Chief Jamie Hauze said the cause of the fire
> still is under investigation. He also said that while the response to
> the fire ended up being routine, the threat posed by the fire was
> anything but that.
>
> "It just happened to be in the worst place possible," he said.
>
> MRIs employ strong magnets kept in operation by super-cooled liquid
> helium and use enormous amounts of energy. The liquid helium - cooled
> to 450 degrees below Fahrenheit - essentially keeps the electric
> current continuously alive, said Tobias Gilk, president and safety
> director for Mednovus, an MRI safety company. If a fire were to have
> pierced the "thermos" casing, he said, the liquid helium could have
> escaped, and immediately chilled the oxygen in the environment to
> liquid, creating a highly explosive scene.
>
> "Any spark or flame in the presence of liquid oxygen becomes virtually
> inextinguishable until the oxygen burns out," he said.
>
> Even without a puncture, fire could warm the liquid helium to a
> gaseous state, causing the helium to expand and result in a
> potentially disastrous buildup in pressure.
>
> Those scenarios did not occur because a St. Luke's MRI technologist
> activated a system that "quenched" the unit, according to Hauze and
> St. Luke's spokeswoman Dorrit Trate. Essentially, the process
> demagnetizes the unit by allowing the gaseous helium to escape safely
> through a chimney-like vent into the outside atmosphere.
>
> It was only then that firefighters, who were made aware of the
> potential hazards of the MRI during inspections of the hospital before
> it opened, could put out the fire.
>
> The MRI had to be quenched because much of the equipment that fire
> fighters carry - axes, picks, oxygen tanks and more - contains ferrous
> material and would have been sucked into the unit by its magnetic
> force. Their equipment, and anything metal, could have become
> MRI-seeking missiles, as other firefighters have learned. According to
> Gilk, a firefighter in Stockton, Calif., last year lost his ax to the
> pull of an the MRI while he was ventilating the roof a building.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Brennan, Mike  (DOH)
> <Mike.Brennan at doh.wa.gov> wrote:
> > The chemistry education of everyone involved in the press release and
> > article should also be under investigation.  I'd have spotted the
> > problem with this article in junior high school, or possibly grade
> > school.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of FISHER Spencer
> > -NUCLEAR
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:42 AM
> > To: 'radsafe at agni.phys.iit.edu'
> > Subject: [ RadSafe ] potentially combustible helium??????
> >
> > MRI safety training pays off in Pa.
> > By AuntMinnie.com staff writers
> > January 3, 2012
> >
> > Officials at St. Luke's Hospital - Anderson Campus in Easton, PA, are
> > crediting MRI safety training as the reason injuries and extensive
> > damage were avoided following a fire in an MRI suite at the facility.
> >
> > A December 30
> > report<http://www.mcall.com/health/mc-bethlehem-mri-explosions-20111230,
> > 0,7840341.story> in the Morning Call newspaper noted that no one was
> > injured at St. Luke's, and damage was limited to smoke in the hallways.
> > An MRI technologist activated a system that demagnetized the unit and
> > allowed potentially combustible helium to exit the building through a
> > vent, according to the report. At that point, firefighters were able to
> > extinguish the fire.
> > The cause of the incident is under investigation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
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--
Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Vienna
Austria
mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227

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