[ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

Wed May 29 21:12:32 CDT 2013

Jerry,

You are right, modern nuclear devices relatively "clean", in terms of the
residual radiation.
However, Siberia is very far away from Ukraine. I do not understand how it
could effect each other. How turning back Hudson river would effect
California?

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:39 AM, tinyyoli <tinyyoli at aol.com> wrote:

> In fact, the demise of the Soviet plan to divert northward flowing rivers
> to the
> south
> was unrelated to anything nuclear. The reason was climatological. Had the
> planned diverson been succesful, there was a strong possibility that the
> entire
> Ukraine , the "breadbasket" of the USSR could have becme a swamp
> (unsuitable for
> agriculture). Many of the planned applications for Plowshare were good
> ideas,
> but this was not one of them.
> Jerry Cohen
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Lee <davidleesafe at gmail.com>
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
> Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 7:57:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"
>
> Russians almost started blowing tranches to turn huge Siberian rivers from
> North to the South to supply Central Asian desserts.
> It was not nuclear issue what stopped it, it was something like rivers are
> so huge water body may effect on earth rotation??? doubtful, the second
> problem was to take water from the North then North becomes desserts.
>
> Nazi:
> 1. Story is Hitler was distrustful to the idea of nuclear (science) bomb,
> because it was associated with Jewish scientists. When, they finally
> started, concept was to make bomb in form of reactor going critical as one
> piece or may be it was Japanese concept? They were satellites, so they
> shared info anyway.
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:27 PM, tinyyoli <tinyyoli at aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I was priveledged to work in the Plowshare program at LLNL. By far, per
> > unit
> > mass, nuclear exlopsives are the cheapest way of excavating and/or moving
> > earth for costruction of navigable canals, highways, etc. Contained
> > underground
> > applications included freeing hyrocarbon resources, and storage of gasses
> > and
> > liquids, including wastes from nuclear power plants. There was much
> > excellent
> > science done in the program which, for security reasons cannot be
> > discussed. Of
> > course, the big scare tactic used by program opponents was the potential
> > for
> > radiation exposure to the public. If it were possible to reveal, it would
> > be
> > surprising how low public exposure levels would have been. Of course,
> from
> > a
> > politiical standpoint, ANY IS TOO MUCH. And so, the program died an
> > untimely
> > death.
> > Too bad----I believe we missed a good bet
> > Jerry Cohen
> >
> > With regards to the  Nazi nuclear weapons program, the best book I've
> read
> > on
> > the subject is "Heisenberg's War" - this went a long ways towards
> > convincing me
> > that the Nazis (including Hitler) were avidly pursuing nuclear weapons
> and
> > that
> > Heisenberg and other scientists helped delay matters because of their
> > concerns.
> >
> > With regards to the Plowshares Program, it's easy to scoff today - and
> > some of
> > the schemes certainly seem nutty with the benefit of hindsight. But at a
> > time
> > when nuclear weapons were viewed as being really big explosives (and
> > lacked the
> > emotional and political overtones of today) such plans seemed reasonable
> -
> > a lot
> > of people wanted desperately for something good to come from devices that
> > made
> > such horrible weapons. But as we learned more - and as we learned more
> > about the
> > health and environmental effects of the things - everyone figured out
> that
> > the
> > cost might be too high.
> >
> > I'm assuming that the "implanting plutonium into patients' hearts" refers
> > to
> > plutonium-powered pacemakers - another idea that seemed to be reasonable
> > at the
> > time since it meant that the rudimentary pacemakers of the day wouldn't
> > need
> > additional surgery to replace batteries.
> >
> > To me the question isn't about the soundness (or stupidity) of this work
> > as we
> > see it today so much as the intent of those proposing the projects in
> > light of
> > what they knew at the time. In the Plowshares Program and the
> > plutonium-powered
> > pacemakers I see programs that were well-intentioned based on what we
> knew
> > at
> > the time - I guess we could call them "noble blunders."
> >
> >
> > And then there are plenty of other things that are just boneheaded....
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig
> > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 4:44 AM
> > To: RADSAFE
> > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [New post] New Book: A Short History of
> > NuclearFolly
> >
> > I really doubt that Nazi scientists knew how to and had the capability to
> > make an atomic weapon but "chose" not to.  I wonder what other fiction
> that
> > Herzog might have buried in this book.  Has anyone had the opportunity to
> > read it?
> >
> > Roger Helbig
> >
> > (see last line of the following news release)
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: nuclear-news <comment-reply at wordpress.com>
> > Date: Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:53 AM
> > Subject: [New post] New Book: A Short History of Nuclear Folly
> >  Christina MacPherson posted: "A Short History of Nuclear
> > Folly [Hardcover]
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/A-Short-History-Nuclear-Folly/dp/1612191738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369261455&sr=8-1&keywords=short+history+of+nuclear+folly
> >y
> >
> > Release
> > date: April 30, 2013 In the spirit of Dr."
> >      New post on *nuclear-news*
> > <http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>  New Book: A Short
> > History of Nuclear
> > Folly<
> >
> http://nuclear-news.net/2013/05/25/new-book-a-short-history-of-nuclear-folly/
> > >
> >
> > by
> > Christina MacPherson <
> http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>
> >
> > *<
> >
> http://antinuclearinfo.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/book-nuclear-folly.gif
> > >A
> > Short History of Nuclear Folly [Hardcover]
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/A-Short-History-Nuclear-Folly/dp/1612191738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369261455&sr=8-1&keywords=short+history+of+nuclear+folly
> >y
> >
> >  *Release date: April 30, 2013
> > *In the spirit of Dr. Strangelove and The Atomic Café, a blackly sardonic
> > people's history of atomic blunders and near-misses revealing the
> hushed-up
> > and forgotten episodes in which the great powers gambled with
> > catastrophe* Rudolph
> > Herzog, the acclaimed author of *Dead Funny*, presents a devastating
> > account of history's most irresponsible uses of nuclear technology. From
> > the rarely-discussed nightmare of "Broken Arrows" (40 nuclear weapons
> lost
> > during the Cold War) to "Operation Plowshare" (a proposal to use nuclear
> > bombs for large engineering projects, such as a the construction of a
> > second Panama Canal using 300 H-Bombs), Herzog focuses in on
> long-forgotten
> > nuclear projects that nearly led to disaster.
> >
> > In an unprecedented people's history, Herzog digs deep into archives,
> > interviews nuclear scientists, and collects dozens of rare photos. He
> > explores the "accidental" drop of a Nagasaki-type bomb on a train
> > conductor's home, the implanting of plutonium into patients' hearts, and
> > the invention of wild tactical nukes, including weapons designed to kill
> > enemy astronauts.
> >
> > Told in a riveting narrative voice, Herzog-the son of filmmaker Werner
> > Herzog-also draws on childhood memories of the final period of the Cold
> War
> > in Germany, the country once seen as the nuclear battleground for NATO
> and
> > the Warsaw Pact countries, and discusses evidence that Nazi scientists
> knew
> > how to make atomic weaponry . . . and chose not to.
> >  *Christina MacPherson<
> > http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>
> > * | May 25, 2013 at 7:52 am | Categories: resources -
> > print<http://nuclear-news.net/?cat=12949297>,
> > Resources -audiovicual <http://nuclear-news.net/?cat=39132860> | URL:
> > http://wp.me/phgse-d9I
> >
> >                  Comment
> >
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> >m
> > >.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> http://nuclear-news.net/2013/05/25/new-book-a-short-history-of-nuclear-folly/
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> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: "KARAM, PHILIP" <ANDREW.KARAM at nypd.org>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
> > <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
> > Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:23:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [New post] New Book: A Short History of
> > NuclearFolly
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