Re: Public Trust and Other Dreams

[Ruth Sponsler <jk5554@YAHOO.COM>]

I made no remarks about natural gas as an electricical

generation source - although I thought that emissions

were lower than for coal.  I'm aware that natural gas

is a bit expensive, although natural gas turbines are

relatively cheap, and that its availability is

limited.



You're correct about passive solar.  I agree that

active solar (central generation) is not a good option

for environmental impact.



Jackson Browne for those too young to remember?:

popular '70's-early 80's singer-songwriter.  Hits:

'Lawyers in Love (1983),' '[Down on the] Boulevard

(1980),' 'Doctor My Eyes,' 'Tender is the Night,'

'Runnin' on Empty (1978),' 'The Pretender (1976).' 

Organized the _No Nukes_ concerts in California in

1979 that were connected with shutdown campaigns

against Diablo Canyon.  Jackson Browne was the central

pop culture figure to the anti-nuke movement when it

was at its height in California during the late

1970's.



http://www.jacksonbrowne.com/ has, now, toned down the

'No Nukes' rhetoric but has discography etc.



~Ruth 2



 

--- RuthWeiner@AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 4/24/02 6:00:48 PM Mountain

> Daylight Time, 

> jk5554@YAHOO.COM writes:

> 

> 

> > I support nuclear because it is the alternative to

> > fossil fuels that is able to generate the most

> > practical quantity of electricity (large amounts).

>  

> > 

> > I also happen to think that solar is a good

> > alternative for sunny (Southwestern) regions

> > especially with passive designs.

> 

> "Passive solar" means using solar energy for direct

> heating, like space 

> heating, and this is of course common in the

> Southwest, thiough augmented 

> with other methods.  Incidentally, in New Mexico we

> use evaporative cooling 

> in the summer in private residences, rather than

> refrigerated air 

> conditioning, and evaporative cooling is both more

> pleasant and much less 

> energy intesive.

> 

> .  Solar electric generation is generally referred

> to as "active solar" and 

> is done either by focusing sunlight on some sort of

> heat transfer system on 

> by direct photoelectric conversion.  We just

> finished looking at a design for 

> a 3MW solar plant (direct conversion)  -- it would

> cover about 160 acres,  

> and the solar cells have a lifetime of about 20

> years.  this ius just to give 

> you an idea.  Passive solar is indeed very sound

> environmentally, but solar 

> electric generation is another matter. 

> Incidentally, I taught the energy and 

> energy conversion course at Western Washington

> University for about 15 years.

>   However, even if

> 

> > everyone in the states of New Mexico or Arizona

> had a

> > solar system on their roof, they would still need

> some

> > non-solar generation, because solar cannot

> generate

> > sufficient power for peaks or at all times of the

> day.

> > For that other electricity need, I'll take Palo

> Verde

> > over Four Corners Coal Plant any day.

> 

> Solar systems on the roof in the Southwest supply

> heat and hot water, not 

> electricity.

> 

> > 

> > The article below, while admittedly heavy on the

> > 'propaganda' side, states that Four Corners spewed

> 13

> > million tons of 'toxins' in the air.  I think they

> > mean mainly nitrogen oxides and sulfur oxides. 

> > 

> >

>

http://dinecare.indigenousnative.org/4_corners_toxins.html

> > 

> 

> It's sulfur dioxide, not "sulfur oxides" (no matter

> what EPA says).  The Four 

> Corners plant (I have been there and flown over it

> many times) burns low 

> sulfur coal -- the stuff you see is not SO2 but fly

> ash.  Some SO2 is carried 

> on the fly ash.  Whar the "Dine" -- how the Navajo

> refer to themselves aren't 

> telling you, by the way, is that many on the Big

> Reservation heat their homes 

> with coal, and that sort of coal burning, unlike

> Four Corners, is completely 

> uncontrolled. And you should know that natural gas

> plants emit almost as much 

> NO and NO2 per watt as coal plants --it's mostly the

> nitrogen in the air that 

> is fixed at high temperatures.

> 

> > Even if the figure is an exaggeration, the point

> is

> > that Four Corners Power plant puts out enough air

> > pollutants to obscure vistas that were once very

> clear

> > in the region,

> 

> No it doesn't, at least not on a steady basis. 

> Moreover, automobile and 

> truck emissions contribute substantially to any

> local haze in the Four 

> Corners area.  I don't now what "once" the article

> is talking about, but 30 

> years ago, the Four Corners emissions were a lot

> worse than they are now, and 

> really did obscure the local vistas on a continuing

> basis.  I was just in 

> Shiprock in January, and the visible emissions from

> Four Corners are 

> considerably less than from the locally operated

> coal-fired generating 

> station that is about 2 miles away and the other

> side of the highway.

>   

>  while Palo Verde emits very little.  By

> > the way, Four Corners was built _after_ the

> > anti-nuclear pressure movement had its heyday out

> in

> > California with Jackson Browne etc.

> 

> I don't know who Jackson Browne is, but I first flew

> over the Four Corners 

> plant in 1968.  No controls were in place at all

> until after 1980.

> 

>  

> I truly wish we could get away from "coal v. nukes."

>  Every form of energy 

> generation, thermal and non-thermal, has adverse

> environmental consequences.  

>   I am not going to repeat myself endlessly on this

> topic.  Also, the U. S. 

> is not going to replace all coal plants with nuclear

> plants.  The US gets 

> about 50% of its electricity by burning coal,  about

> 20% from nuclear power 

> and the same amount from hydro dams,  and the

> remainder from natural gas 

> burning, wind, geothermal and some biomass burning. 

> Electric generation is a 

> poor use for natural gas, which burns clean (except

> for NO). The mix will 

> doubtless change over time, but I suspect we are

> going to use everything we 

> have got to generate electricity, until it's all

> gone.

> 

> Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.

> ruthweiner@aol.com

> 





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