get real - Did it happen? Far off topic

[Paul lavely <lavelyp@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>]

Title: get real - Did it happen? Far off topic

> OK here I go.  When I was 13, my father let me
>
> help in his laboratory occasionally, and when I was 15, I started to
>
> work there regularly twice a week.  We worked with small animals:
>
> chickens, rats, mice, rabbits.  They were used to test treatments
>
> for various diseases, both drugs of various sort and some surgeries.
>
>  Mice were also used for various assays: follicle-stimulating
>
> hormone (FSH) assays were done using mice, who were sacrificed --
>
> killed -- to complete the assay (I learned to do these).
>
>
> My point is that I never ever saw anyone deliberately mistreat an
>
> animal.  Some things done were painful, though never for long,
>
> but when an injection is given, it hurts.  There is also
>
> post-surgical pain, just as with people.  Many animals had their
>
> adrenal glands removed and were used to test adrenal hormone
>
> replacement, so they were uncomfortable, but would you rather have
>
> tested these processes on people?  There was always a good reason
>
> for any painful procedure, nor was there prolonged pain.
>
>  Sacrificing was done as humanely as possible.  
>
>
> You can't tell from pictures, any more than you can tell from a
>
> picture of a person recovering from major surgery, or in traction, for
>
> example.  Pictures can look awful, but the animal may not be
>
> suffering at all.
>
>
> One also needs to remind PETA and similar groups that veterinary
>
> medicine has made enormous strides, and has used experimental animals
>
> to get there.

>

>

> Enough said.

> Ruth Weiner, Ph. D.

> ruthweiner@aol.com

Well we are all glad that YOUR experience with experimental animals was so benign. Mine was not. In college at a school of Pharmacy in the midwest I routinely observed the administration of drugs and chemicals (not pain killers), the application of stress, the animal sacrificed, and samples taken. Sometimes the rats were exposed to stress as noise, sometimes heat, some cold. Sometimes it was hind leg ligation. In this process a rubber band is tied around the hind leg and a tourniquet is formed. Over the next few days the leg dies. Left long enough the rat normally died. Sometimes the rat would chew the leg off in an attempt to be rid of the "stress."

I found rats in air tight cells where someone had turned off the air to "see what would happen." Yes, they did die.

I watched as a researcher frustrated with the rat he was dosing threw it against the wall and calmly got another one from the pen. Seemed to be a deliberate act to me.

I saw dogs moaning in pain following surgery.

Yes this was in the 60's and early 70's; however, what I and I am sure many others on this list observed was far from the pastoral scene you described.

I have seen reports from vets in animal facilities in the late 80's and 90's who were reporting problems that many would find as inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on the animal(s).

I have also seen researchers (who used dogs) who had to have someone else sacrifice them because they had become so attached over the experiment period.

At Berkeley we have what I believe is one of the best and most carefully controlled use of animals in research in the USA. We work with these folks and from the vets to the custodians they are excellent! They are the example of what should be done to protect experimental animals. They also suffer the threats from some animal rights extremists. Fair? Not hardly.

Do I agree with animal rights extremists. NO. Should experimental animals be "rescued and released?" Of course not. Should researchers be subjected to threats or abuse because they use animals. NO.

I believe that animals in research are now much better protected from the abuses of the past.

Have I benefited from the use of experimental animals? Yes. My surgeon told me that he perfected his techniques and tries new surgical methods (mechanical/ computerized surgery) on dogs. However, I checked and found that they are treated as well as his human patients.

At best, your knowledge on this indicates that you are misinformed. I do not deny what you saw. I simply deny that all treatment of research animals have been as you described.

Okay, this is off topic and I have complained about off topic messages before. Some may see this as a flame. Some may view my comments as closer to the facts of what happened in the past. Some may lose respect for me. The list server moderator may deny me continued access. Some may complain to my employer. However, some of you may do as I did - I bowed my head in shame because I did not stop the abuses I saw while a college student. I can live with your opinions of me - now how do I live with my opinion of me?

Paul Lavely

 

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