[ RadSafe ] RE: Hospital emergency response and RDD waste management

Thu Mar 3 16:03:49 CET 2005

Chris,

Alright after thinking about it I think you are right although I don't have
as much angst about it going into a storm drain as you appear to.  My
feeling is that in the vast majority of scenarios you are talking a large
volume of mildly contaminated water [rad or chem contamination]  But because
storm drains drain to uncontrolled areas, rivers, canals and such it would
be better to have it contained.  My biggest concern would be in areas like
this [Denver] where we have lots of streams that are seasonal and dry up so
it could flow out into a dry bed and soak in instead of flow on and get
further diluted.  Over flow could happen but that would mean lots of water
and lots of dilution.

I have some small concern that a chemical contaminant might interfere with
the water treatment plant but I don't really know how they operate and my
feeling is that the massive dilution should take care of that.

So I will amend my suggestion.  Put the run off in the sanitary sewer.

Any opinions in this e-mail are solely those of the author, and are not
represented as those of the VA Eastern Colorado HCS, the Dept. of Veterans
Affairs, or the US Government.

Peter G. Vernig, Radiation Safety Officer, MS-115, VA Eastern Colorado
Health Care System, 1055 Clermont St. Denver, CO 80220,
peter.vernig at med.va.gov, Phone= 303.399.8020 x2447; Fax = 303.393.5026,
alternate fax, 303.393.5248

"...whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is
admirable, if anything is found to be excellent or praiseworthy, let your
mind dwell on these things."

Paul of Tarsus

-----Original Message-----
From: alstonchris at netscape.net [mailto:alstonchris at netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Peter.Vernig at med.va.gov; radsafe at radlab.nl
Subject: Hospital emergency response and RDD waste management

Peter

Put it down the sanitary sewer *please*, not the storm drains, unless it's
some kind of ultimate extremity.  For one thing, it's not legal to dispose
of hazmat (I'm using the term loosely) in the storm sewers (one can imagine
your finding yourself with an EPA citation, on top of everything else).
Sanitary sewerage is pretty well controlled and monitored.  It shouldn't be
difficult to figure out how much is there, even at the treatment plant.  The
storm drains can potentially overflow anywhere upstream of the final
discharge point.

As an aside, and FYI, Seattle (or maybe King County), about ten years ago,
seriously contemplated requiring hospitals to inform them, prior to a nuc
med pt's flushing of the toilet.  I believe that they received some good
counselling from the State DOH on the issue.

Cheers
cja

P.S.  In some countries, e.g. Canada, I think, they are required to hold for
decay the effluent from, e.g., I-131 inpatients.  Our regulatory burden in
the USA is not always as onerous as it seems.

I would run it
>right into the sewer or storm drain, counting on massive dilution to render
>it innocuous.  What else can you do really, when you think about it.  Most
>hospitals are not going to have the liquid storage capacity.  One of the VA
>hospitals put in about a 2000 gallon (7600 l) holding tank, that would be
>good for about 114 patients/deconees.

>
>
>Any opinions in this e-mail are solely those of the author, and are not
>represented as those of the VA Eastern Colorado HCS, the Dept. of Veterans
>Affairs, or the US Government.
>
>Peter G. Vernig, Radiation Safety Officer, MS-115, VA Eastern Colorado
>Health Care System, 1055 Clermont St. Denver, CO 80220,
>peter.vernig at med.va.gov, Phone= 303.399.8020 x2447; Fax = 303.393.5026,
>alternate fax, 303.393.5248
>
>"...whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is
>admirable, if anything is found to be excellent or praiseworthy, let your
>mind dwell on these things."
>
>Paul of Tarsus
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl [mailto:radsafe-bounces at radlab.nl]On
>Behalf Of Bradt, Clayton
>Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:27 PM
>To: Radsafe (radsafe at radlab.nl)
>Subject: FW: [ RadSafe ] Hospital emergency response and RDD waste
>managem ent
>
>
>
>
>Any realistic solution to the problem of rad waste following an RDD event
>would be so hateful to the eco-crazies that it would be impossible for any
>government agency to ever make such a plan public before the fact.  I am
>unaware of anyone actually working on such a plan.  I suspect that any
>decisions on what to do about rad waste will be made ad hoc during the
>crisis when there will be no time for opponents to get organized against
>them.
>
>Clayton J. Bradt, CHP
>Principal Radiophysicist
>NYS Dept. of Labor
>phone: (518) 457 1202
>fax:     (518) 485 7406
>e-mail: clayton.bradt at labor.state.ny.us
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Lukban [mailto:ALukban at chpnet.org] 
>Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 5:20 PM
>To: radsafe at radlab.nl
>Subject: [ RadSafe ] Hospital emergency response and RDD waste management
>
>
>I am the RSO in a hospital in New York City. Our hospital Emergency
>Management Committee has been charged with planning a procedure of
>response to emergency situations associated with radiation dispersal
>devices (RDD's or "dirty bombs".) It is rumored that the next round of
>city-wide table-top exercises for emergency preparedness are to involve
>RDD scenarios. There are many things invloved with such a scenario which
>range from detection (portal monitors), isotope identification (handheld
>MCA), determination of internal decontamination (swab nostrils and mouth
>and count), actual decontamination (undress, shower), calculation of
>scheduled quantities in sewage from mass showering (close my eyes),
>treatment (should be teh doc's job), dose calculations (call REAC/TS)
>and... waste management (?).
>
>I can almost deal with all the first steps but find myself bothered by
>"waste management". I suppose it is not "waste" but, rather, "evidence"
>if it were involved with an act of terrorism. What could be used for an
>RDD? By nature of it being "dispersed" to cause maximum panic, it is
>also more spread out and less concentrated when concerns about
>contamination are brought up. This is different then from a single
>source planted in one place and resulting in plain ol' external exposure
>because the hospital would not be dealing with radiaiton contaminated
>patients and produce radiation "waste" that I would ten have to deal
>with.
>
>Liquid RAM would likely be stolen from a medical purpose (likely imaging
>and not oncology) and is likely the the easiest to disperse but is also
>the shortest lived. Longer lived, higher specific activity material have
>half-lives > 65 days and usually is from a solid form and would have to
>be crushed for dispersal if the mode of dispersal is not via explosion.
>It is interesting to note that regulations prevent us from doing
>decay-in-storage for materials with half-lives >65 days. I would be
>requird to return it to the "vendor" - "Hello Mr Terrorist, here's your
>stuff back." No matter. Either way, both short lived and long lived RAM
>"waste" now present at the hospital resulting from decon, emesis, feces,
>etc. would not have been "purchased according to our license" and the
>institution should not be responsible for storing or disposing it. We
>can follow due diligence in preparing for proper radiation safety
>procedure to contain and isolate the stuff, but what is the limit of
>preparation? Should we prepare for storing clothing contaminated with
>therapeutic amounts of powdered Co-60? How many Pb lined steel drums is
>considered OK? What government entity will say that the "foreign RAM of
>extramural origin" is "their problem" and will pick it up? Should I be
>pursuing a memo of understanding with some magically appropriate
>government entity? Real estate is big problem in NYC and there is no
>"spare parking lot" that can be used to contain RAM in an emergency
>scenario.
>
>The more I think about it, the more I think that the conclusion is that
>"radioactive waste" from an RDD emergency is NOT the hospital's problem
>in the long term. However, what is considered the short term (when will
>it no longer be my problem because someone will remove it) and who is
>going to be responsible for it (who will remove it)?
>
>Sorry for the venting...
>
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