[ RadSafe ] They walk among us

Daniel Kane dankane at mindspring.com
Thu Oct 21 17:25:01 CDT 2010 

Thank. My impression was that you considered the garbage as an I-131 vector.

Best,

Dan Kane
Associates in Medical Physics, LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Hardeman
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:05 PM
To: 'The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] They walk among us

Daniel --
 
My "theory" is that the same mechanisms that result in contamination of
household trash with I-131 from contact with perspiration, sputum etc. from
a human patient will also contaminate everything else in the patient's
environs -- furniture, clothing, walls, floors, food items, etc. -- items
that remain in the environs. Considering that everything a baby touches
usually winds up in his/her mouth -- and while crawling around they serve as
moving composite smear samplers -- I think the intakes that Otto referenced
(and after all, who am I to argue with ICRP?) are, as I said earlier,
entirely plausible.
 
I would note from personal experience that cats are notorious about not
following directions, and it's likely that cat a that has been treated with
I-131 for hyperthyroidism, even after being "held" for several days, will
still be capable of spreading significant amounts of contamination w/in it's
domain. If it's an indoor cat, it's domain corresponds pretty closely with
the humans who share living quarters with it. The only time we find out
about such contamination is when the cat's owner (or should I say "staff"?)
fails to follow instructions (people are moderately better at this than
cats) and disposes of contaminated litter in such a manner that it winds up
at a monitored landfill. 
 
Once the I-131 is at a landfill, I really don't have a whole lot of concern
about it. It's all the I-131 that DIDN'T make it to the landfill that still
remains in the patient's (whether human or feline) environs that, in my
opinion, could lead to radionuclide intakes.
 
My opinion only ...
 
Jim

>>> "Daniel Kane" <dankane at mindspring.com> 10/21/2010 16:44 >>>
Jim - what is your theory regarding the mechanism for radionuclide intake of
diapers, sputum, perspiration and decayed food that is (a) at least 24 - 48
hours old (b) in at least one garbage bag (c) inside of a dumpster or in the
back of a garbage truck. I think that probably the safest place for that
waste to be (and I shudder at the biological risk that has multiple
endpoints of death) would be under 10 feet of dirt at a landfill. Not even a
licensee can provide that level of protection.

If we are to re-open this regulation, and it seems that it is already
opened; we should look at the garbage as a pathway. I cannot comprehend any
intake mechanism nor do I have any idea if the chemical form of the Iodine
is altered once it has passed through the gut, blood, kidney, exposed to
air, etc.

I am not denying the issues of patient non-compliance - going to hotels,
casinos, etc. I am trying to understand the mechanism of regulatory or
biologically significant intake of I-131 via the decayed food, incontinent
waste, sputum and sweat in garbage route in the U.S. We can quibble over one
microcurie intake (oral) against a 50 microcurie ALI but I have a hard time
imagining such an intake in reality via trash. I am specifically excluding
the contaminated hotel scenario and other regulations regarding landfills,
etc.

Dan Kane
Associates in Medical Physics, LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu 
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Hardeman
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 4:11 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] They walk among us

Howard / Shailendra --

I don't know anything about any particular "studies", but our past
experience in dealing with household items, trash, and yes -- diapers --
discarded by I-131 therapy patients (and showing up a day or two later at a
landfill) indicates that everything such a patient touches within the first
few days is likely to be contaminated. In most of what we've seen, it
appears that the material is related to sputum or perspiration -- although
occasionally we would get the "loaded Depends". As I indicated earlier, our
current practice is NOT to try to identify the specific item if we're
confident that we're dealing with a medical , radionuclide.

It's not uncommon to us to see radiation levels of several hundred uR/hr on
the outside of a metal trash container -- and although the geometry is
uncertain, I would conclude that in those cases we're looking at activities
of at least 0.5 mCi I-131. Given that this level of activity may be
transferred due to simple contact, I don't find the possibility of an uptake
of 1 microcurie to be the least bit implausible.

My $0.02 worth ...

Jim Hardeman, Manager
Environmental Radiation Program
Environmental Protection Division
Georgia Department of Natural Resources
4220 International Parkway, Suite 100
Atlanta, GA 30354
(404) 362-2675
Fax: (404) 362-2653
Personal fax: (404) 521-4485
E-mail: Jim.Hardeman at dnr.state.ga.us 

>>> "Shukla, Shailendra" <Sal.Shukla at va.gov> 10/21/2010 14:48 >>>
What is the likelihood of a child getting an internal dose of 1
microcurie of I-131 by kissing a thyroid therapy patient (few days after
the procedure)?

Shailendra Shukla, Ph.D
Medical Physicist & Radiation Safety Officer
(352) 376-1611 x6514
Fax: 352-271-4504


>>> Howard Long <howard.long at comcast.net> 10/21/2010 14:39 >>>
Evidence, Otto?
"Children can be exposed by skin contact, kissing, or while using a
contaminated toilet. Intake of only 1 microcurie of I-131 by a child can
result in a thyroid dose of 13 REM"

1, Where is a study that I is transmitted by such contacts, (as for colds)?
2. Chernobyl children's thyroid cancers were found NOT increased, when the
severity of the cancers was factored in (I apologize for having lost that
recent reference).
3. Hormesis effect, less risk of cancer rather than more, occurs up to about
20 REM in the bomb survivor studies, although children were  not in sig.
numbers.

"State of Fear" (Crichton's book) , false alarm that does great harm, is in
I-131, radiation use as well as in carbon burning

Howard Long 

On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:37 AM, "Otto G. Raabe" <ograabe at ucdavis.edu> wrote:

> Children can be exposed by skin contact, kissing, or while using a
contaminated toilet. Intake of only 1 microcurie of I-131 by a child can
result in a thyroid dose of 13 REM
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