[ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
Busby, Chris
C.Busby at ulster.ac.uk
Wed Jun 22 09:04:50 CDT 2011
I will reply to this of course. I have told you all several times why your logic is that of the kindergarten, but I suppose I have to repeat myself. I hope you all register that I do not call you names, idiot and so forth like that Franz fellow.
You cannot argue on the basis of dose.
The basis of Dose
The basis of Dose.
OK, Got it?
The effects are at the cell level, the DNA
The effects are at the cell level, the DNA.
The effects are at the cell level, the DNA.
The ionisation density is what drives the effects
(3 times)
This is greater for some nuclides than others
(3 times)
And for hot particles
(3 times)
Therefore the ionisiation density to the DNA can be very high even if the dose (Joules per KG) is very low.
(3 times)
It is called anisotropy
(3 times)
OK?
As far as my predictions for Fukushima are concerned, they are alrady happening.
Just as the atmospheric tests killed babies, Fulushima kills babies in the USA. Check out the work of Joe Mangano and Janet Sherman.
Also check out the recent paper by Hagen Scherb on sex ratio.
I have found alpha emitter hot particles in car filters from Tokyo and my colleagues have found these in car filters in the USA. They are also in teh UK AWE filters.
Thank you
Chris Busby
-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of franz.schoenhofer at chello.at
Sent: Tue 21/06/2011 22:13
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
RADSAFERs,
As most of you know I have to grind hundreds of axes with Sandy, but in this case I have to support his opinion: Yablokov is well known to talk whatever his western antinuclear supporters want to hear. It seems to be a financial question as usual. (and with Chris Busby and the like.)
The problem was not so much the explosion of the reactor, but the fact that it burned for about ten days after the accident, releasing
a lot of the radionuclide inventory. So what are the 1.5%? Of the inventory? Of the released activity? Scientific accuracy seems not to be the agenda of these people.
What radionuclides????
Where does this idiot take the claim of about thousands of deaths? Yes he is almost right, because millions of people die every year in those areas affected by the Chernobyl fallout (all of Europe) - the same number as deaths without the Chernolbyl-accident would have. occurred. .
Best reegards,
Franz
---- "Perle schrieb:
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I particularly am amused at this paragraph from Yablokov:
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>
>
> "During the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor, only 1.5 percent of the available fuel there got into the atmosphere. Only 1.5% - and the whole northern hemisphere suffered. About 500 million people received an increased and in some places lethal dose of radiation. Even now, each year thousands of deaths occur because of the radiation sickness caused by the ingress of radiation. A person falls ill even from the very small doses just above background radiation..."
>
>
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> 1. 500 million people exposed and many potential lethal dose!
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> 2. each year thousands of deaths occur because of the radiation sickness caused by the ingress of radiation!
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> 3. Most notably this comment, "A person falls ill even from the very small doses just above background radiation..."
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>
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> Really? By this statement I would assume almost 100% the world's population would be ill if the small dose just above background causes illness. What about geographical areas where a person can receive 50 mSv/yr background? What about all of the medical procedures, the highest opportunity for collective as well as individual dose? These statements from Yblokov mean he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. He is just another Ralph Nader and the rest of those who really believe that one photon can cause radiation illness.
>
>
>
> Regards,
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>
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> Sandy
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>
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Sander C. Perle
>
> President
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> Mirion Technologies
>
> Dosimetry Services Division
>
> 2652 McGaw Avenue
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> Irvine, CA 92614
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> +1 (949) 296-2306 (Office)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:45 PM
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, so far on the basis of death toll, you will excuse me if I say Chernobyl outweighs all of these by orders of magnitude. I know you guys think only a few firemen died, but this isnt so.. Alexey Yablokov is right. Gogman calculated 980,000 in 1990. All the studies have been done. Here is my paper on the issue.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Jeff Terry
>
> Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 23:24
>
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> Well, if we are using radiation related fatalities to date as the metric in Fukushima, we cannot leave out:
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>
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> "Jackass" co-star dies in car crash in Pennsylvania as its one fatality exceeds the radiation tally in Fukushima.
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> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-rt-us-jackass-dunntre75j4u2-20110620,0,5962651.story
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> Jeff
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>
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> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote:
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>
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> > Here are some from Wikipedia. I am not saying these are the biggest, as they only cover a brief slice of time, are mostly Northern Hemisphere, and are mostly catastrophic events, as opposed to long term health crushers like Black Lung Disease (so if you are going to say, "but Fukushima potentially will have long term effects," I suspect I could come up with 10 of those without much problem, too.)
>
> >
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> > December 3, 1984: The Bhopal disaster. Estimates of its death toll range from 4,000 to 20,000. The disaster caused the region's human and animal populations severe health problems to the present.
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> >
>
> > April 16, 1947: Texas City Disaster, Texas. A minimum of 578 people lost their lives and another 3,500 were injured as the blast shattered windows from as far away as 25 mi (40 km). Large steel pieces were thrown more than a mile from the dock. The origin of the explosion was fire in the cargo on board the ship. Detonation of 3,200 tons of ammonium nitrate fertilizer aboard the Grandcamp led to further explosions and fires.
>
> >
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> > 1932-1968: The Minamata disaster was caused by the dumping of mercury compounds in Minamata Bay, Japan. The Chisso Corporation, a fertilizer and later petrochemical company, was found responsible for polluting the bay for 37 years. It is estimated that over 3,000 people suffered various deformities, severe mercury poisoning symptoms or death from what became known as Minamata disease.
>
> >
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> > August, 1975 The Banqiao Dam flooded in the Henan Province of China due to extraordinarily heavy rains, killing over 26,000
>
> >
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> > April 26, 1986: Chernobyl disaster. At the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in Prypiat, Ukraine a test on reactor number four goes out of control, resulting in a nuclear meltdown. The ensuing steam explosion and fire killed up to 50 people with estimates that there may be between 4,000 and several hundred thousand additional cancer deaths over time. Fallout could be detected as far away as Canada. The Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, covering portions of Belarus and Ukraine surrounding Prypiat, remains poisoned and mostly uninhabited. Prypiat itself was totally evacuated and remains as a ghost town.
>
> >
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> > January 15, 1919: The Boston Molasses Disaster. A large molasses tank burst and a wave of molasses rushed through the streets at an estimated 35 mph (56 km/h), killing 21 and injuring 150. The event has entered local folklore, and residents claim that on hot summer days the area still smells of molasses.
>
> >
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> > March 25, 1911: Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City. This was a major industrial disaster in the U.S., causing the death of more than one hundred garment workers who either died in the fire or jumped to their deaths.
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> >
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> > March 10, 1906: Courrières mine disaster in Courrières, France. 1,099 workers died, including children, in the worst mine accident ever in Europe.
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> >
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> > October 21, 1966: Aberfan disaster was a catastrophic collapse of a colliery spoil-tip that occurred in the Welsh village of Aberfan, killing 116 children and 28 adults.
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> >
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> > September 21, 2001: Toulouse, France. An explosion at the AZF fertilizer factory killed 29 and injured 2,500. Extensive structural damage to nearby neighbourhoods.
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> >
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> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:39 PM
>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> >
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> >
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> > What industrial catastrophes are bigger than Fukushima?
>
> > I cant think of one. But maybe there is one. Certainly not 9.
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> > I mean Industrial right. Not earthquakes and stuff like that.
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> > If we call the atmospheric tests an industrial catastrophe then that one certainly.
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> > Also the use of uranium weapons in GW2.
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> > But thats probably not as bad in terms of health effects as Fukushima will be. You wait.
>
> > Chris Busby
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike (DOH)
>
> > Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 21:35
>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> >
>
> > While I don't choose to guess at the amount of activity released at either Chernobyl or Fukushima beyond "a whole hell of a lot", I don't think I agree that Fukushima has or will result in "higher collective exposure". Firstly, there was some hours between the end of criticality and the beginning of release at Fukushima. This means that many of the isotopes with the shortest half-lives had enough time to decay away before release began, unlike Chernobyl. Second, at Fukushima the first portion of the release, which is potentially the hottest, was blown out to sea, as opposed to at Chernobyl, where there was inhabited land in every direction (some, obviously, more densely inhabited than others).
>
> > Third, a significant portion of the released activity is in water, going to the ocean, where the impact on human health will be limited.
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> >
>
> > I am not for a moment saying that Fukushima isn't a disaster. I am not even saying that it is unreasonable to compare it to Chernobyl. Heck, I am not even saying that something can't happen and make Fukushima worse than it is. However, I don't believe that it is useful to engage in hyperbole.
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> >
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> > This morning a concerned citizen sent me an article from Al Jezeera in which an activist claimed, "Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind". It certainly is not, and probably isn't in the top ten.
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> >
>
> >
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> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
>
> > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:15 AM
>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > My estimate is
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> > Chernobyl
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> > about 10^19 Bq
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> > Fukushima about 10^19Bq but more local so density greater and higher collective exposure due to Tokyo Hiroshima more difficult, maybe 10^14 including the Uranium But I agree, not easily comparable with Hiroshima since that involved high level prompt gamma and neutrons Chris
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Brennan, Mike
>
> > (DOH)
>
> > Sent: Mon 20/06/2011 17:41
>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
>
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> >
>
> > I am not sure if the question of how much radioactivity was released at Hiroshima is a meaningful question, at least when trying to put it in perspective with Chernobyl and Fukushima.
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> >
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> > There are several reasons for this. The first is that the explosion at Hiroshima produced blast and heat that killed people (though not
>
> > everyone) out to a range past where the radiation dose would cause acute problems. At Chernobyl the blast killed a few people (I am not sure how many), and at Fukushima no one was killed by blast.
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> >
>
> > Second, at Hiroshima much of the radiation was produced by fission, so "curies" isn't an appropriate unit, in much the same way it isn't for machine produced radiation. There was a substantial amount of radioactive material produced, and there was some exposure to people from the fallout, but that wasn't the main source of dose. At Chernobyl a reactor core that was (for a brief time) at more than 100% power was blasted into the air, then roasted in a graphite fire for days. At Fukushima there was a release into the air some hours after criticality ceased, and a large amount of the radioactive material has been trapped in water that either went into the ocean or is still on site.
>
> >
>
> > Third, the isotope mix of what was released is very different between the three. This come into play in that the release of, say, 1,000 Ci of
>
> > I-131 has different consequences than the release of 1,000 Ci of I-129.
>
> > Weapons tend to have a higher percentage of very short half life isotopes, reactor fuel that has been use a while has a higher percentage of longer half-life isotopes. Also, with reactors the amount of time between the end of criticality and the release will impact both the amount of activity and the isotope mix.
>
> >
>
> > I bring all this up because it is a natural tendency to ask questions like this, then equate "more" with "worse". In this case, I don't think that the intentional attacks of Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be
>
> > meaningfully compared to Chernobyl and Fukushima.
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
>
> > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Theo Richel
>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:17 AM
>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
>
> > Subject: [ RadSafe ] How many curies were involved in Hiroshima
>
> >
>
> > Could anyone please give me some facts on how much radioactivity
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> > (curies) was released in: Fukushima, Hisoshima, Chernobyl
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> >
>
> >
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> > Much appreciated
>
> >
>
> > Theo Richel
>
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> Well, so far on the basis of death toll, you will excuse me if I say Chernobyl outweighs all of these by orders of magnitude. I know you guys think only a few firemen died, but you are wrong. Alexey Yablokov is right. All the studies have been done. Here is my paper on the issue.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
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