[ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

Tue Oct 4 16:34:21 CDT 2011

If you stop saying things like, "Since the wind energy is free..." you
would enhance your credibility on a number of subjects.  I actually like
wind power, but it is far from free.  The installation costs are high
and will increase, as it becomes more apparent that huge wind turbines
are another NIMBY issue.  This is will become even worse as the best
locations are used, and more marginal locations are left.  Wind turbines
actually take a substantial amount of maintenance, as the machinery is
pretty close to as good as we can currently build.  The decommissioning
costs will be high (what, you thought they would last forever?),
especially if someone decides for non-technical reasons that the
material can't be recycled (as it clearly should be, just as spent
nuclear fuel should be).  There are already people who live within miles
of wind turbines who claim the noise and/or electrical fields are
damaging their health and making the cows act funny.  I live in
confidence that someone who is against wind turbines will be able to
find a cluster of something that can be blamed on them; maybe even
showing that the turbans are so dangerous that the health effects reach
back through time.  

And that's not counting the cost of milling birds and bats, a technical
issue that has been dealt with by deciding not to think about it,
anymore.  

As Dixie Lee Ray said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch.  Behind
every little bundle of love is a pile of dirty diapers."  Industrialists
and environmentalists alike hated her for saying things like that, but
that didn't make her wrong. 

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:35 AM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics)
MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

The disposal of the waste and the cost of this must surely be part of
any efficiency of the process to generate electricity. The efficiency of
a electricity generation process must be of the form: 

(Price of Energy generated over the lifespan of plant)/ (real costs
including health effects for all time of waste and uranium tailings,
mining and refining uranium fuel, isotope separation, building,
operating, fueling, and disposal of waste and decommissioning)

It is not a political matter. It is straight economics or if you like
physics, work put in / work taken out. 

You could do the same for coal. I dont know where you got your figures
for cancers near a coal fired plant, but I have examined the cancer
deaths near one coal fired plant and they are no different from
expected. Do you have a referenced study?  There are no child cancers
near coal fired plants but there certainly are near nuclear plants (e.g.
Sellafield, KiKK Germany). The US put  the opportunity cost of a child
cancer at 1 million dollars. I have shown statistically significant
increases in cancers, particularly breast cancer downwind of two nuclear
plants in the UK and Sternglass and Gould and Joe Mangano have published
results showing the same in the USA downwind of all nuclear plants in
the USA using County data.  These results are in the peer review
literature. I have also found increases in infant mortality downwind of
one nuclear plant in the UK. 
Im not saying that coal plants are great. We need to have less
electricity generation generally, it is very wasteful. And I agree that
coal mining is a nasty business which kills the miners in many ways. But
wind power is great. Something for nothing. And solar power also. The
storage problem is easily soluble. Another way is compressed air and
turbines. Very efficient. You compress air into cylinders and recover it
by turbine generation. There is no dQ/T loss. 

Sincerely
Chris   

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Rouse, Raymond
Lawrence
Sent: Tue 04/10/2011 18:38
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

"...the disposal of the waste etc" This is a political issue and not a
scientific issue. The USA NPP sites store radwaste on-site since
government politicos can't get their act together. However, this has no
effect on efficiency

Great point!

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:36 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

With respect to Chris's statement:

And if you bring in all the cancer children near the nuclear sites, the
disposal of the waste etc., its efficiency is probably negative

1.      "..all the cancer children near the nuclear sites..."
insignificant evidence that there is this result, therefore, efficiency
is positive

2.      "...the disposal of the waste etc" This is a political issue and
not a scientific issue. The USA NPP sites store radwaste on-site since
government politicos can't get their act together. However, this has no
effect on efficiency

Regards,

Sandy

-----------------------------------

Sander C. Perle

President

Mirion Technologies

Dosimetry Services Division

2652 McGaw Avenue

Irvine, CA 92614

+1 (949) 296-2306 (Office)

+1 (949) 296-1130 (Fax)

Mirion Technologies: http://www.mirion.com/

"Protecting people, property and the environment"

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 8:39 AM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

Franz,

It is not obvious to me from any of your emails that you know anything
much at all.

Since the wind energy is free any loss of efficiency has to be
considered in that context. What is the efficiency of a sailing yacht?
It gets you from A to B without any outlay on fuel. What, for example is
the efficiency of nuclear power? A meaningless question. And if you
bring in all the cancer children near the nuclear sites, the disposal of
the waste etc., its efficiency is probably negative.  The efficiency of
hydrogen production from electrolysis is very high. The efficiency of
burning hydrogen in a heat engine is Carnot-based dQ/T.  What you may
like to know is that I am a Physical Chemist and Chemical Physicist, was
responsible at Wellcome for and was the expert on Thermodynamics, I also
ran the electrochemical laboratory and my 2nd PhD was in Raman
Spectroelectrochemistry. I am sorry that I know so much, but that's not
my problem, its just a consequence of much study and hard work in many
areas.

I do enjoy our little exchanges. Keep up the insults. Most entertaining.

Best regards

Chris

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