[ RadSafe ] Rational Thought

Tue Oct 4 23:52:40 CDT 2011

Bats are a serious issue with wind power. White nose disease is already taking out bats. They don't need anymore help from windmills.

Unfortunately, they don't have to hit the blades to be killed. The pressure differential is enough: 
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(08)00751-3
http://dnr.state.il.us/publications/pdf/00000544.pdf

Bats kill bugs. Bugs eat crops, spread disease, kill people. 10000 dead bats in Pennsylvania alone due to windmills. 
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11198/1160977-28.stm

Jeff

Jeff Terry
Assoc. Professor of Physics
Life Science Bldg Rm 166
Illinois Institute of Technology
3101 S. Dearborn St. 
Chicago IL 60616
630-252-9708
terryj at iit.edu

On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Brennan, Mike (DOH) wrote:

> If you stop saying things like, "Since the wind energy is free..." you
> would enhance your credibility on a number of subjects.  I actually like
> wind power, but it is far from free.  The installation costs are high
> and will increase, as it becomes more apparent that huge wind turbines
> are another NIMBY issue.  This is will become even worse as the best
> locations are used, and more marginal locations are left.  Wind turbines
> actually take a substantial amount of maintenance, as the machinery is
> pretty close to as good as we can currently build.  The decommissioning
> costs will be high (what, you thought they would last forever?),
> especially if someone decides for non-technical reasons that the
> material can't be recycled (as it clearly should be, just as spent
> nuclear fuel should be).  There are already people who live within miles
> of wind turbines who claim the noise and/or electrical fields are
> damaging their health and making the cows act funny.  I live in
> confidence that someone who is against wind turbines will be able to
> find a cluster of something that can be blamed on them; maybe even
> showing that the turbans are so dangerous that the health effects reach
> back through time.  
> 
> And that's not counting the cost of milling birds and bats, a technical
> issue that has been dealt with by deciding not to think about it,
> anymore.  
> 
> As Dixie Lee Ray said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch.  Behind
> every little bundle of love is a pile of dirty diapers."  Industrialists
> and environmentalists alike hated her for saying things like that, but
> that didn't make her wrong. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:35 AM
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
> List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics)
> MailingList
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought
> 
> The disposal of the waste and the cost of this must surely be part of
> any efficiency of the process to generate electricity. The efficiency of
> a electricity generation process must be of the form: 
> 
> (Price of Energy generated over the lifespan of plant)/ (real costs
> including health effects for all time of waste and uranium tailings,
> mining and refining uranium fuel, isotope separation, building,
> operating, fueling, and disposal of waste and decommissioning)
> 
> It is not a political matter. It is straight economics or if you like
> physics, work put in / work taken out. 
> 
> You could do the same for coal. I dont know where you got your figures
> for cancers near a coal fired plant, but I have examined the cancer
> deaths near one coal fired plant and they are no different from
> expected. Do you have a referenced study?  There are no child cancers
> near coal fired plants but there certainly are near nuclear plants (e.g.
> Sellafield, KiKK Germany). The US put  the opportunity cost of a child
> cancer at 1 million dollars. I have shown statistically significant
> increases in cancers, particularly breast cancer downwind of two nuclear
> plants in the UK and Sternglass and Gould and Joe Mangano have published
> results showing the same in the USA downwind of all nuclear plants in
> the USA using County data.  These results are in the peer review
> literature. I have also found increases in infant mortality downwind of
> one nuclear plant in the UK. 
> Im not saying that coal plants are great. We need to have less
> electricity generation generally, it is very wasteful. And I agree that
> coal mining is a nasty business which kills the miners in many ways. But
> wind power is great. Something for nothing. And solar power also. The
> storage problem is easily soluble. Another way is compressed air and
> turbines. Very efficient. You compress air into cylinders and recover it
> by turbine generation. There is no dQ/T loss. 
> 
> Sincerely
> Chris   
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Rouse, Raymond
> Lawrence
> Sent: Tue 04/10/2011 18:38
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought
> 
> "...the disposal of the waste etc" This is a political issue and not a
> scientific issue. The USA NPP sites store radwaste on-site since
> government politicos can't get their act together. However, this has no
> effect on efficiency
> 
> Great point!
> 
> Raymond
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Perle, Sandy
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:36 PM
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought
> 
> With respect to Chris's statement:
> 
> 
> 
> And if you bring in all the cancer children near the nuclear sites, the
> disposal of the waste etc., its efficiency is probably negative
> 
> 
> 
> 1.      "..all the cancer children near the nuclear sites..."
> insignificant evidence that there is this result, therefore, efficiency
> is positive
> 
> 2.      "...the disposal of the waste etc" This is a political issue and
> not a scientific issue. The USA NPP sites store radwaste on-site since
> government politicos can't get their act together. However, this has no
> effect on efficiency
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> Sander C. Perle
> 
> President
> 
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> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Busby, Chris
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 8:39 AM
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Rational Thought
> 
> 
> 
> Franz,
> 
> It is not obvious to me from any of your emails that you know anything
> much at all.
> 
> Since the wind energy is free any loss of efficiency has to be
> considered in that context. What is the efficiency of a sailing yacht?
> It gets you from A to B without any outlay on fuel. What, for example is
> the efficiency of nuclear power? A meaningless question. And if you
> bring in all the cancer children near the nuclear sites, the disposal of
> the waste etc., its efficiency is probably negative.  The efficiency of
> hydrogen production from electrolysis is very high. The efficiency of
> burning hydrogen in a heat engine is Carnot-based dQ/T.  What you may
> like to know is that I am a Physical Chemist and Chemical Physicist, was
> responsible at Wellcome for and was the expert on Thermodynamics, I also
> ran the electrochemical laboratory and my 2nd PhD was in Raman
> Spectroelectrochemistry. I am sorry that I know so much, but that's not
> my problem, its just a consequence of much study and hard work in many
> areas.
> 
> I do enjoy our little exchanges. Keep up the insults. Most entertaining.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Chris
> 
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