[ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning

franz.schoenhofer at chello.at franz.schoenhofer at chello.at
Mon Sep 12 16:25:01 CDT 2011 

Marco,

It seems that you got completely carried away: The discussion was about Po-210 and not Pb-210. Which Pb-210 peak are you talking of? I hope you are aware, that Po-210 is an alpha emitter. 

Best regards anyway,

Franz



---- "marco bähler" <m.c.baehler at bluewin.ch> schrieb:
> franz 
> I happen to have a set of filters in my leadcastle right now and the lead 210 peak is very strong while the other peaks of lead and bismuth, which I am familiar with, are almost absent. the filters were in a house for one year.
> every once in a while i am surprised on how you get carried away...
> marco bähler
> 
> Am 12.09.2011 um 20:55 schrieb <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at> <franz.schoenhofer at chello.at>:
> 
> > Don't do it!! This is the privilege of our raman-spectroscopist to measure accurately I-131 from Fukushima with secret detectors; to prove core meltdown, radiation doses to the population in the vicinity or probably for a whole country etc. etc. 
> > 
> > Now I switch off the "sarcasm modus": You will find in any airfilters tremendous amounts of short-lived radon daughters if you measure fast enough. Unfortunately there are some natural limitations because of half-lifes to detect Po-210 in air filters.....
> > 
> > But please do not tell those people about radon and daughters in air and the dose implications, they might start a campain to forbid breathing. 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > Franz
> > 
> > 
> > ---- Brent Rogers <brent.rogers at optusnet.com.au> schrieb:
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> Would you consider counting automotive air filters?
> >> 
> >> <wink>
> >> 
> >> Brent Rogers
> >> Sydney Australia
> >> TDY Washington DC
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >> 
> >> On 12/09/2011, at 12:24, "Brennan, Mike  (DOH)" <Mike.Brennan at DOH.WA.GOV> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I am glad that my understanding of the situation agrees with Franz's
> >>> opinion, as his expertise is far greater than mine (no irony implied;
> >>> I'm just a sample grabber who reads stuff).  Processing Po-210 from
> >>> radium sources has several non-trivial issues that need to be
> >>> considered.  The first is that the decay product of radium is radon,
> >>> which is a noble gas.  If the radium source is not constructed in a way
> >>> that contains the radium, there will be little ingrowth of the isotopes
> >>> down the chain, including Po-210.  The next issue is that if you have a
> >>> refined radium source, presumably all the lead and bismuth and polonium
> >>> isotopes would have been left behind with the slag.  This means the
> >>> Pb-210 won't come into equilibrium for some time (about 140 years, using
> >>> an old thumb rule).  On the bright side, there are radium sources that
> >>> are that old, but getting them would be a non-trivial challenge).  
> >>> 
> >>> If I were insistent on concentrating Po-210 from "natural" sources, as
> >>> opposed to going the activation route, I would look at ventilation
> >>> filters or liquid dust traps for mines.  Obviously some mines would be
> >>> better for this than others.  
> >>> 
> >>> After all that, you are left with the chemistry, which I've been told is
> >>> trick, especially as the fine powder that results is difficult to keep
> >>> contained (one person said that alpha recoil increases the spread of
> >>> contamination, but I wouldn't know).  I've been told that it will crap
> >>> up a glove box no matter how careful you are, and you will never get it
> >>> clean (until it decays away).  
> >>> 
> >>> All this is easy compared to building a nuclear reactor in order to do
> >>> activation.  On the other hand, if you already have a nuclear reactor,
> >>> and all that neutron flux is just going to waste...
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> >>> [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of
> >>> franz.schoenhofer at chello.at
> >>> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 1:21 PM
> >>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
> >>> List; The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics)
> >>> MailingList
> >>> Cc: Busby, Chris
> >>> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning
> >>> 
> >>> Absurd and lacking any insight in the topic and on reality. Po-210 is
> >>> produced commercially as far as I know (almost) exclusively in Russian
> >>> reactors (consult Google). They have enough to spend some to the KGB.
> >>> What are "old radium tubes"? Since you have neither knowledge about
> >>> radiation protection or chemistry I wonder where you got the recipe for
> >>> separating Po-210 from radium. Radiumsources usually are not to be found
> >>> on the streets, so where do you get them from? Being a radiochemist I
> >>> would not work with the necessary quantities of radium to extract the
> >>> polonium obviously used in the murder of Litvinenko.
> >>> 
> >>> Franz
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ---- "Busby schrieb:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yes. Interesting. Everyone blamed the Russians because it was said
> >>> that only someone with access to a reactor could have put the poison
> >>> together i.e. it was not a amateur job. But it is easy to separate Po210
> >>> from old radium tubes with nitric acid and baking soda; a kitchen job,
> >>> though you'd have to be jolly careful. I think KGB would have far more
> >>> sophisticated ways of killing someone.
> >>>> Chris 
> >>>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: radsafe-bounces at agni.phys.iit.edu on behalf of Otto G. Raabe
> >>>> Sent: Sat 9/10/2011 7:38 PM
> >>>> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing
> >>> List
> >>>> Subject: [ RadSafe ] Polonium-210 poisoning
> >>>> 
> >>>> September 10, 2011
> >>>> 
> >>>> At London's Millenium Hotel on November 1, 2006, Alexander 
> >>>> Litvinenko, a Russian defector, was poisoned  with tea containing a 
> >>>> large amount of polonium-210. He fell ill that very day and died 
> >>>> after a long hospitalization on November 23. He told investigators 
> >>>> that he had met with two former KGB agents early on the day he fell
> >>> ill.
> >>>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
> >>> Habicherg. 31/7
> >>> A-1160 Vienna
> >>> Austria
> >>> mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227
> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >>> 
> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> >>> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> >>> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >>> 
> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> >>> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >>> 
> >>> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >>> 
> >>> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >> 
> >> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >> 
> >> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
> > 
> > --
> > Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
> > Habicherg. 31/7
> > A-1160 Vienna
> > Austria
> > mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> > 
> > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> > 
> > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
> 
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> 
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the RadSafe rules. These can be found at: http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> 
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu

--
Franz Schoenhofer, PhD, MinRat
Habicherg. 31/7
A-1160 Vienna
Austria
mobile: ++43 699 1706 1227

More information about the RadSafe mailing list