[ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

Fri May 31 03:14:34 CDT 2013

Jerry, I have to agree with you.  Many new concepts pertaining to low-yield and special nuclear devices were developed and tested via the US PNE program.  Some of them were mentioned in Milo's citation.
Have a good evening! 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: tinyyoli <tinyyoli at aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 22:27:11 
To: <francistsang at cox.net>; The International Radiation Protection \(Health Physics\) Mailing List<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Reply-To: tinyyoli <tinyyoli at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

Francis, Thank you for this excellent citation. Milo Nordyke was a colleague and 
good friend, but I was unware that he had completed this summary of the 
plowshare program and that the Soviet plowshare program had been so extensive 
(apparently far more ambitious than the U.S. program) The report gives a great 
summary of what went on. I still believe that nuclear explosives can be applied 
toward many beneficial purposes. Unfortunately. it would be almost impossible to 
sell the idea.

________________________________
From: Dr. Francis Y. Tsang <francistsang at cox.net>
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList 
<radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Thu, May 30, 2013 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

Jerry, diversion of water ways was one of the 13 objectives stated by the
Former Soviet Union PNE program.  There are many articles describing PNE
programs in both the United States and the Former Soviet Union.  One of the
best was written by Milo Nordyke.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_uranium27.htm

Hope the article helps....

-----Original Message-----
From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
[mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Yahoo Mail Inc
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:52 PM
To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

David,
    The idea was to divert  the nothern flowing Kama river (which flowed to
the 
Arctic Ocean where the waters did no good) into the Pechora Reiver where
water 
would flow south into the Caspian Sea (which, at the time, was drying up)
.. Granted, in light of subsequent knowledge it was a dumb idea , but that 
doesn't mean that all potential plowshare applications are unwise. You
shouldn't 
throw the baby out with the bath water. 
Jerry Cohen

________________________________
From: David Lee <davidleesafe at gmail.com>
To: tinyyoli <tinyyoli at ymail.com>; The International Radiation Protection 
(Health Physics) Mailing List <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 7:13:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"

Jerry,

You are right, modern nuclear devices relatively "clean", in terms of the
residual radiation.
However, Siberia is very far away from Ukraine. I do not understand how it
could effect each other. How turning back Hudson river would effect
California?

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:39 AM, tinyyoli <tinyyoli at aol.com> wrote:

> In fact, the demise of the Soviet plan to divert northward flowing rivers
> to the
> south
> was unrelated to anything nuclear. The reason was climatological. Had the
> planned diverson been succesful, there was a strong possibility that the
> entire
> Ukraine , the "breadbasket" of the USSR could have becme a swamp
> (unsuitable for
> agriculture). Many of the planned applications for Plowshare were good
> ideas,
> but this was not one of them.
> Jerry Cohen
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Lee <davidleesafe at gmail.com>
> To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) Mailing List
> <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
> Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 7:57:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] The Plowshare program got a "bum rap"
>
> Russians almost started blowing tranches to turn huge Siberian rivers from
> North to the South to supply Central Asian desserts.
> It was not nuclear issue what stopped it, it was something like rivers are
> so huge water body may effect on earth rotation??? doubtful, the second
> problem was to take water from the North then North becomes desserts.
>
> Nazi:
> 1. Story is Hitler was distrustful to the idea of nuclear (science) bomb,
> because it was associated with Jewish scientists. When, they finally
> started, concept was to make bomb in form of reactor going critical as one
> piece or may be it was Japanese concept? They were satellites, so they
> shared info anyway.
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:27 PM, tinyyoli <tinyyoli at aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I was priveledged to work in the Plowshare program at LLNL. By far, per
> > unit
> > mass, nuclear exlopsives are the cheapest way of excavating and/or
moving
> > earth for costruction of navigable canals, highways, etc. Contained
> > underground
> > applications included freeing hyrocarbon resources, and storage of
gasses
> > and
> > liquids, including wastes from nuclear power plants. There was much
> > excellent
> > science done in the program which, for security reasons cannot be
> > discussed. Of
> > course, the big scare tactic used by program opponents was the potential
> > for
> > radiation exposure to the public. If it were possible to reveal, it
would
> > be
> > surprising how low public exposure levels would have been. Of course,
> from
> > a
> > politiical standpoint, ANY IS TOO MUCH. And so, the program died an
> > untimely
> > death.
> > Too bad----I believe we missed a good bet
> > Jerry Cohen
> >
> > With regards to the  Nazi nuclear weapons program, the best book I've
> read
> > on
> > the subject is "Heisenberg's War" - this went a long ways towards
> > convincing me
> > that the Nazis (including Hitler) were avidly pursuing nuclear weapons
> and
> > that
> > Heisenberg and other scientists helped delay matters because of their
> > concerns.
> >
> > With regards to the Plowshares Program, it's easy to scoff today - and
> > some of
> > the schemes certainly seem nutty with the benefit of hindsight. But at a
> > time
> > when nuclear weapons were viewed as being really big explosives (and
> > lacked the
> > emotional and political overtones of today) such plans seemed reasonable
> -
> > a lot
> > of people wanted desperately for something good to come from devices
that
> > made
> > such horrible weapons. But as we learned more - and as we learned more
> > about the
> > health and environmental effects of the things - everyone figured out
> that
> > the
> > cost might be too high.
> >
> > I'm assuming that the "implanting plutonium into patients' hearts"
refers
> > to
> > plutonium-powered pacemakers - another idea that seemed to be reasonable
> > at the
> > time since it meant that the rudimentary pacemakers of the day wouldn't
> > need
> > additional surgery to replace batteries.
> >
> > To me the question isn't about the soundness (or stupidity) of this work
> > as we
> > see it today so much as the intent of those proposing the projects in
> > light of
> > what they knew at the time. In the Plowshares Program and the
> > plutonium-powered
> > pacemakers I see programs that were well-intentioned based on what we
> knew
> > at
> > the time - I guess we could call them "noble blunders."
> >
> >
> > And then there are plenty of other things that are just boneheaded....
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu
> > [mailto:radsafe-bounces at health.phys.iit.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Helbig
> > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 4:44 AM
> > To: RADSAFE
> > Subject: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [New post] New Book: A Short History of
> > NuclearFolly
> >
> > I really doubt that Nazi scientists knew how to and had the capability
to
> > make an atomic weapon but "chose" not to.  I wonder what other fiction
> that
> > Herzog might have buried in this book.  Has anyone had the opportunity
to
> > read it?
> >
> > Roger Helbig
> >
> > (see last line of the following news release)
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: nuclear-news <comment-reply at wordpress.com>
> > Date: Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:53 AM
> > Subject: [New post] New Book: A Short History of Nuclear Folly
> >  Christina MacPherson posted: "A Short History of Nuclear
> > Folly [Hardcover]
> >
> >
>http://www.amazon.com/A-Short-History-Nuclear-Folly/dp/1612191738/ref=sr_1_
1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369261455&sr=8-1&keywords=short+history+of+nuclear+folly
>y
> >y
> >
> > Release
> > date: April 30, 2013 In the spirit of Dr."
> >      New post on *nuclear-news*
> > <http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>  New Book: A Short
> > History of Nuclear
> > Folly<
> >
>
http://nuclear-news.net/2013/05/25/new-book-a-short-history-of-nuclear-folly
/
> > >
> >
> > by
> > Christina MacPherson <
> http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>
> >
> > *<
> >
> http://antinuclearinfo.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/book-nuclear-folly.gif
> > >A
> > Short History of Nuclear Folly [Hardcover]
> >
> >
>http://www.amazon.com/A-Short-History-Nuclear-Folly/dp/1612191738/ref=sr_1_
1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369261455&sr=8-1&keywords=short+history+of+nuclear+folly
>y
> >y
> >
> >  *Release date: April 30, 2013
> > *In the spirit of Dr. Strangelove and The Atomic Café, a blackly
sardonic
> > people's history of atomic blunders and near-misses revealing the
> hushed-up
> > and forgotten episodes in which the great powers gambled with
> > catastrophe* Rudolph
> > Herzog, the acclaimed author of *Dead Funny*, presents a devastating
> > account of history's most irresponsible uses of nuclear technology. From
> > the rarely-discussed nightmare of "Broken Arrows" (40 nuclear weapons
> lost
> > during the Cold War) to "Operation Plowshare" (a proposal to use nuclear
> > bombs for large engineering projects, such as a the construction of a
> > second Panama Canal using 300 H-Bombs), Herzog focuses in on
> long-forgotten
> > nuclear projects that nearly led to disaster.
> >
> > In an unprecedented people's history, Herzog digs deep into archives,
> > interviews nuclear scientists, and collects dozens of rare photos. He
> > explores the "accidental" drop of a Nagasaki-type bomb on a train
> > conductor's home, the implanting of plutonium into patients' hearts, and
> > the invention of wild tactical nukes, including weapons designed to kill
> > enemy astronauts.
> >
> > Told in a riveting narrative voice, Herzog-the son of filmmaker Werner
> > Herzog-also draws on childhood memories of the final period of the Cold
> War
> > in Germany, the country once seen as the nuclear battleground for NATO
> and
> > the Warsaw Pact countries, and discusses evidence that Nazi scientists
> knew
> > how to make atomic weaponry . . . and chose not to.
> >  *Christina MacPherson<
> > http://nuclear-news.net/author/christinamacpherson/>
> > * | May 25, 2013 at 7:52 am | Categories: resources -
> > print<http://nuclear-news.net/?cat=12949297>,
> > Resources -audiovicual <http://nuclear-news.net/?cat=39132860> | URL:
> > http://wp.me/phgse-d9I
> >
> >                  Comment
> >
> >    Unsubscribe or change your email settings at Manage
> > Subscriptions<
> >
>https://subscribe.wordpress.com/?key=08885aed3993e49a821da296e09588a3&email
=rwhelbig%40gmail.com
>m
> >m
> > >.
> >
> >
> >
> > *Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser:
> >
> >
>
http://nuclear-news.net/2013/05/25/new-book-a-short-history-of-nuclear-folly
/
> >        Thanks for flying with WordPress.com <http://wordpress.com>
> > _______________________________________________
> > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >
> > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the
> > RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >
> > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> > visit:
> > http://health.phys.iit.edu
> > _______________________________________________
> > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >
> > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the
> > RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >
> > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> > visit:
> > http://health.phys.iit.edu
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: "KARAM, PHILIP" <ANDREW.KARAM at nypd.org>
> > To: The International Radiation Protection (Health Physics) MailingList
> > <radsafe at health.phys.iit.edu>
> > Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:23:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ RadSafe ] Fwd: [New post] New Book: A Short History of
> > NuclearFolly
> > _______________________________________________
> > You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
> >
> > Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> > the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> > http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
> >
> > For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> > visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
> >
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
the
> RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit:
> http://health.phys.iit.edu
> _______________________________________________
> You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list
>
> Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood
> the RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
> http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html
>
> For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings
> visit: http://health.phys.iit.edu
>
_______________________________________________
You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list

Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the 
RadSafe rules. These can be found at: 
http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html

For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit:

http://health.phys.iit.edu
_______________________________________________
You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list

Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the
RadSafe rules. These can be found at:
http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html

For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit:
http://health.phys.iit.edu

_______________________________________________
You are currently subscribed to the RadSafe mailing list

Before posting a message to RadSafe be sure to have read and understood the 
RadSafe rules. These can be found at: 
http://health.phys.iit.edu/radsaferules.html

For information on how to subscribe or unsubscribe and other settings visit: 
http://health.phys.iit.edu