Re: LNT, Collective Dose

["Jerry Cohen" <jjcohen@prodigy.net>]

Jim,
    If your point is that in setting radiaton standards/policy, all effects
should be considered, I certainly agree with you. However, thats the way
things ought to be. I was discussing the way things actually are.


            Jerry


----- Original Message -----
From: Stokes, James <StokesJ@ttnus.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <radsafe@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: LNT, Collective Dose


> Jerry:
>
> I fully agree with your comments to Fritz.  However, the beneficial
effects
> must be considered for the purpose of beneficial applications.  The first
> cure for Syphilis, discovered by Paracelsus about 500 years ago was a
> MERCURY compound.  He recognized that with the right dose, there was a
life
> saving benefit to the patient.  With the wrong dose, things went very
badly
> for the patient.  There are benefitial doses in many things that have
> detrimental effects.  But for that application, the benefit is the
> overriding factor. All things are bad in excess,our job is to determine
> where that excess lies.
>
> Sincerely Jim Stokes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Cohen
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Sent: 2/25/01 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: LNT, Collective Dose
>
> Fritz,
>     Your point is well taken, but the argument depends of the
> definitions
> applied, i.e. threshold for what?? The fact that at some low level of
> dose,
> positive effects may occur does not preclude the possibility that
> negative
> effects (albeit of a different nature) could simultaneously be
> occurring. In
> the regulatory/political bureaucracy, the focus is on avoiding harmful
> effects. Positive effects. if any,  are essentially irrelevant, so the
> question remains-- What could possibly constitute "scientific evidence"
> that
> harmful effects are absent.
>     How else can you explain the refusal by official agencies to reflect
> the
> works of Bernie Cohen and a multitude of other scientists in setting
> radiation protection policy?
>
> Jerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fritz A. Seiler <faseiler@nmia.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <radsafe@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: LNT, Collective Dose
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Jerry Cohen wrote:
> >
> > > -- I sure don't want to hurt EPA's feelings :-), but the above
> statement
> is
> > > total nonsense. There is no way to prove a threshold. Logically, it
> is
> > > impossible to prove any negative.
> >
> > This statement is true only if the excess risk is positive
> semi-definite!
> ( R
> > >=  0)!
> > You can demonstrate a threshold if the excess risk goes to negative
> values
> > below the threshold!  It occurs when you have hormesis as in Bernie
> > Cohen's radon measurements and when you don't re-normalize the
> > Japanese bomb survivor data by setting the leukemia mortality ratio
> > (about 0.7 for the lowest dose group) equal to a relative risk of 1!
> > Equating a mortality ratio at zero dose, which is not equal to one
> with
> > a relative risk which is one means bringing in the LNT by the back
> > door!!  For numerical data and logical arguments, see:
> >
> > Alvarez, J.L., and F.A. Seiler, "New Approaches to Low-Dose Risk
> > Modeling," Technology: Journal of the Franklin Institute, 333A, 33-51,
> > 1996.
> >
> > Cohen, B.L.  Test of the linear-no threshold theory of radiation
> > carcinogenesis for inhaled Radon decay products. Health Phys. 68:
> > 157-174; 1995.
> >
> > Cohen, B.L. Validity of the Linear-No Threshold of Radiation
> > Carcinogenesis in the Low Dose Region. Technology: Journal
> > Franklin Institute 6, 43-61 (1999).
> >
> > Seiler, F.A., and J.L. Alvarez, "Is the 'Ecological Fallacy' a
> Fallacy?"
> > Human and Ecological Risk Assessment, 6, 921-941, 2000.
> >
> > As Joe Alvarez and I have to remind even ourselves every once and
> > so often: " This is an argument based on LNT thinking! (which seems
> > to pervade most low-dose arguments!)"
> >
> > Have a nice weekend anyway,
> >
> > Fritz
> >
> > --
> >
> >  " The American Republic will endure until the day Congress
> >  discovers that it can bribe the Public with the Public's money."
> >                                        Alexis de Tocqueville
> >                                        Democracy in America
> >
> > ***************************
> >
> > Fritz A. Seiler, Ph.D.
> > Sigma Five Consulting
> > P.O. Box 1709
> > Los Lunas, NM 87031, USA
> > Tel.    505-866-5193
> > Fax.    505-866-5197
> > e-mail: faseiler@nmia.com
> >
> > ***************************
> >
> >
> >
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