RE: LNT, Collective Dose

["Stokes, James" <StokesJ@ttnus.com>]

 Jerry:

I fully agree with your comments to Fritz.  However, the beneficial effects
must be considered for the purpose of beneficial applications.  The first
cure for Syphilis, discovered by Paracelsus about 500 years ago was a
MERCURY compound.  He recognized that with the right dose, there was a life
saving benefit to the patient.  With the wrong dose, things went very badly
for the patient.  There are benefitial doses in many things that have
detrimental effects.  But for that application, the benefit is the
overriding factor. All things are bad in excess,our job is to determine
where that excess lies.

Sincerely Jim Stokes

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Cohen
To: Multiple recipients of list
Sent: 2/25/01 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: LNT, Collective Dose

Fritz,
    Your point is well taken, but the argument depends of the
definitions
applied, i.e. threshold for what?? The fact that at some low level of
dose,
positive effects may occur does not preclude the possibility that
negative
effects (albeit of a different nature) could simultaneously be
occurring. In
the regulatory/political bureaucracy, the focus is on avoiding harmful
effects. Positive effects. if any,  are essentially irrelevant, so the
question remains-- What could possibly constitute "scientific evidence"
that
harmful effects are absent.
    How else can you explain the refusal by official agencies to reflect
the
works of Bernie Cohen and a multitude of other scientists in setting
radiation protection policy?

Jerry


----- Original Message -----
From: Fritz A. Seiler <faseiler@nmia.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <radsafe@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: LNT, Collective Dose


> Hi all,
>
> Jerry Cohen wrote:
>
> > -- I sure don't want to hurt EPA's feelings :-), but the above
statement
is
> > total nonsense. There is no way to prove a threshold. Logically, it
is
> > impossible to prove any negative.
>
> This statement is true only if the excess risk is positive
semi-definite!
( R
> >=  0)!
> You can demonstrate a threshold if the excess risk goes to negative
values
> below the threshold!  It occurs when you have hormesis as in Bernie
> Cohen's radon measurements and when you don't re-normalize the
> Japanese bomb survivor data by setting the leukemia mortality ratio
> (about 0.7 for the lowest dose group) equal to a relative risk of 1!
> Equating a mortality ratio at zero dose, which is not equal to one
with
> a relative risk which is one means bringing in the LNT by the back
> door!!  For numerical data and logical arguments, see:
>
> Alvarez, J.L., and F.A. Seiler, "New Approaches to Low-Dose Risk
> Modeling," Technology: Journal of the Franklin Institute, 333A, 33-51,
> 1996.
>
> Cohen, B.L.  Test of the linear-no threshold theory of radiation
> carcinogenesis for inhaled Radon decay products. Health Phys. 68:
> 157-174; 1995.
>
> Cohen, B.L. Validity of the Linear-No Threshold of Radiation
> Carcinogenesis in the Low Dose Region. Technology: Journal
> Franklin Institute 6, 43-61 (1999).
>
> Seiler, F.A., and J.L. Alvarez, "Is the 'Ecological Fallacy' a
Fallacy?"
> Human and Ecological Risk Assessment, 6, 921-941, 2000.
>
> As Joe Alvarez and I have to remind even ourselves every once and
> so often: " This is an argument based on LNT thinking! (which seems
> to pervade most low-dose arguments!)"
>
> Have a nice weekend anyway,
>
> Fritz
>
> --
>
>  " The American Republic will endure until the day Congress
>  discovers that it can bribe the Public with the Public's money."
>                                        Alexis de Tocqueville
>                                        Democracy in America
>
> ***************************
>
> Fritz A. Seiler, Ph.D.
> Sigma Five Consulting
> P.O. Box 1709
> Los Lunas, NM 87031, USA
> Tel.    505-866-5193
> Fax.    505-866-5197
> e-mail: faseiler@nmia.com
>
> ***************************
>
>
>
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