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RE: Radiation Hormesis -- or not



Decidedly not - especially with modern medical care.



Dave Neil



-----Original Message-----

From: Flanigan, Floyd [mailto:Floyd.Flanigan@nmcco.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 8:50 AM

To: Barry E. Muller

Cc: John Jacobus; Catherine Perham; radsafe@list.Vanderbilt.Edu

Subject: RE: Radiation Hormesis -- or not





Do all hemophiliacs die before they reproduce?



-----Original Message-----

From: Barry E. Muller [mailto:mullerb@dteenergy.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:33 AM

To: Flanigan, Floyd

Cc: John Jacobus; Catherine Perham; radsafe@list.Vanderbilt.Edu

Subject: Re: Radiation Hormesis -- or not





When all hemopheliacs die before reproducing, then hemophelia will be eliminated from the gene-pool.  I have an uncle who survived WWII (he was in the

military) and is a hemopheliac.  The phenotype is just the interaction between the genotype and the environment.  Undoubtedly there are a lot of congenital

conditions (mutations) that are along for the ride - until the environment selects against them to the point that the carriers cannot reproduce.  Its called

evolution.



"Flanigan, Floyd" wrote:



> Perhaps hemophilia was an adverse adaptation to combat arterial plaque or blood clots which has side effects which outweigh the benefit of said adaptation?

>

> Floyd W.FlaniganB.S.Nuc.H.P.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird@YAHOO.COM]

> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:21 AM

> To: Catherine Perham

> Cc: 'radsafe@list.Vanderbilt.Edu'

> Subject: RE: Radiation Hormesis -- or not

>

> Catherine

> I would also say that not all negative mutations are

> selected against survival.  There are a number of

> genetic diseases that do not improve the species, e.g.

> hemophilia, but are still present and are passed

> along.  It escapes me what was the evolutionary or

> genetic process that allowed it to exist in humans.

>

> --- Catherine Perham <cperham@ehso.emory.edu> wrote:

> > John;

> >

> > Genetic effects are completely random and as you

> > mention cannot be "willed."

> > We only see the positive genetic mutations such as

> > opposable thumbs because

> > all of the negative mutations were selected against-

> > in other words, they

> > died.  Random effects are very unlikely to be

> > positive and that is why

> > evolution takes so long.  Most mutations change a

> > protein structure such as

> > a hormone that may render it unusable to the

> > organism.

> >

> > My theory on the relative strength of the seedlings

> > in the experiment in

> > question is that the radiation killed off various

> > fungi and viruses that may

> > have lived on the seeds, and not a favorable

> > mutation within the seed

> > itself.  After all, a dormant seed is not made up of

> > actively dividing

> > cells.

> >

> > Cheers;

> > Catherine

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird@YAHOO.COM]

> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 4:17 PM

> > To: Neil, David M; Carl Speer;

> > radsafe@list.Vanderbilt.Edu

> > Subject: RE: Radiation Hormesis -- or not

> >

> >

> > Why would a genetic mutation favor a negative

> > effect?

> > After all, evolution shows that genetic effects are

> > positive since they allow the organism to adapt.

> > Primates did not get opposed thumbs by willing it to

> > happen.  It was genetics.

> >

> > Again, my statement was that it should have been

> > checked to see if it was a genetic mutation by

> > following the growth pattern of the off-spring.

> >

> > --- "Neil, David M" <neildm@id.doe.gov> wrote:

> > > If it were a genetic mutation, the odds favor

> > > (immensely) a negative effect.  This would

> > translate

> > > to lower germination ratios (live plants per seed

> > > planted) and a mixture of positive and negative

> > > effects.  This is not what is observed.

> > >

> > > Dave Neil

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: John Jacobus [mailto:crispy_bird@yahoo.com]

> > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 7:09 AM

> > > To: Carl Speer; radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu

> > > Subject: RE: Radiation Hormesis -- or not

> > >

> > >

> > > Carl,

> > > A thought came to me.  How do you know this was a

> > > hormetic effect and not a genetic mutation?  My

> > > understanding is the a hometic effect involves the

> > > addition of some simulus to an living organism to

> > > get

> > > a beneficial response.  You irradite mice to low

> > > doses

> > > and you get a certain response, e.g., an increase

> > in

> > > the immune system.  When the agent is stopped, the

> > > hormetic effect is no longer evident after a time.

> > > Maybe this definition for hormesis is too

> > limiting,

> > > but this is what I believe it is.

> > >

> > > Seeds are not actively growing or responding

> > > organisms.  If you irradiated the growing plant, I

> > > would agree that would be be a way of

> > demonstrating

> > > a

> > > hormetic effect.  Did you try and grow new plants

> > > from

> > > the seeds produced from the mature, irradiated

> > > plants?

> > >  I think that would have demonstrated the effect

> > of

> > > genetic mutation.

> > >

> > > --- John Jacobus <crispy_bird@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > Interesting.  What were the doses?

> > > >

> > > > --- Carl Speer <rtrs@cox.net> wrote:

> > > > > Karl (and others),

> > > > >

> > > > > We had and interesting laboratory experiment

> > in

> > > > > Radiation Biology when I

> > > > > was in college where we irradiated bean seeds,

> > > > fruit

> > > > > flies, and onion

> > > > > root with low, med, and high doses from a

> > Co-60

> > > > > source from a local

> > > > > hospital.  To show the effects of hormesis, no

> > > > > effect, and ill effect

> > > > > the students all received seeds from each

> > > exposed

> > > > > group plus seeds that

> > > > > did not get any extra dose (controls). We

> > > planted

> > > > > the seeds in cups at

> > > > > our home, gave all plants the same amount of

> > > water

> > > > > and noted the

> > > > > differences.  The seeds with the low doses had

> > > > more

> > > > > vigorous growth,

> > > > > smaller internodal lengths, and healthier

> > leaves

> > > > > than the control. The

> > > > > higher dose plants had brown shriveled leaves,

> > > > > stunted growth, and other

> > > > > undesirable characteristics. We made a plot

> > > > showing

> > > > > that as the dose

> > > > > initially increased we saw a net positive

> > effect

> > > > > (hormesis) but as the

> > > > > dose continued to increase, a negative effect

> > > > became

> > > > > apparent.  This

> > > > > made a lasting impression and I have believed

> > in

> > > > > hormesis ever since.  I

> > > > > know people are not bean plants or fruit flies

> > > but

> > > > > this little

> > > > > experiment gave the hormesis theory more

> > > > > believability than the LNT in

> > > > > my mind.

> > > > >

> > > > > As for the fruit flies I don't remember the

> > low

> > > > dose

> > > > > effects.  What

> > > > > stands out in my memory were the horrific

> > > > mutations

> > > > > in the offspring of

> > > > > the high dose flies.

> > > > >

> > > > > The onion root tips were used so we could see

> > > the

> > > > > chromosome damage in

> > > > > the cells undergoing meiosis.

> > > > >

> > > > > See http://www.belleonline.com/n2v82.html

> > > > RADIATION

> > > > > HORMESIS: ITS

> > > > > HISTORICAL FOUNDATIONS AS A BIOLOGICAL

> > > HYPOTHESIS

> > > > by

> > > > > Edward J. Calabrese

> > > > > and Linda A. Baldwin for a good discussion on

> > > > > Hormesis.

> > > > >

> > > > > Carl Speer

> > > > > Real-Time Radiological Services, Inc.

> > > > > 2721 Losee Rd, Suite E

> > > > > North Las Vegas, NV 89030

> > > > > 702.639.0066

> > > > > www.RealtimeRad.com

> > > > > RTRS@cox.net

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > > From: owner-radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu

> > > > > [mailto:owner-radsafe@list.vanderbilt.edu] On

> > > > Behalf

> > > > > Of

> > > > > RuthWeiner@AOL.COM

> > > > > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 7:28 AM

> > > > > To: "Karl Ellison";

> > > > > radsafe-digest@list.vanderbilt.edu

> > > > > Subject: Re: Radiation Hormesis

> > > > >

> > > > > I have always wondered how one could

> > distinguish

> > > > > hormesis effects from

> > > > > ordinary good health.  An example: small

> > amounts

> > > > of

> > > > > ionizing radiation

> > > > > are supposed to stimulate bone knitting after

> > a

> > > > > break (I read this

> > > > > somewhere). However, the rates of bone

> > recovery

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

> =====

> +++++++++++++++++++

> "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

> Thomas Jefferson

>

> -- John

> John Jacobus, MS

> Certified Health Physicist

> e-mail:  crispy_bird@yahoo.com

>

> __________________________________

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